Virgin Atlantic Pilot Redundancies
 

I truly hope that the rumour is not true, but heard that VS are offering unpaid furlough or compulsory redundancies to pilots ?

Any more info, numbers involved ? First in last out ? Age discrmination minefield ?

Not good for the rest of the industry.

Rgds

NOBBY

Old news....

x ray one, thank you for your reply.

I had heard that this has happened in the last 3 weeks or so ? As I am unable to find any thread relating specifically to this 'old news' and in particular no mention of unpaid furloughs in VS anywhere on this forum using the search facility, perhaps you would kindly enlighten us all as to what has actually happened at VS ?

Many thanks in advance.

Can anyone from VS confirm the numbers involved? How many pilots do Virgin employ and how many will lose their positions?

TBE.

There is a private VS forum, if you can log in you will possibly find out more (I am not a VS pilot). Having said that, I find it interesting that the main posters are new to PPRune.

I find it interesting that any thread containing information on VS possible redundancies, or any other "unsavoury" topic, is removed.

Heavy handed editing, following threats, will be near the truth I suspect.

airmail, I am unsure what you are attempting to imply by your comment regarding you finding it ''interesting that the main posters are new to PPRune''

I have been registered for a couple of years but am a self confessed lurker. You will see that I registered in 2007 but have minimal posts.

I started the thread with an honest and concerned attempt to ascertain the numbers involved, if indeed true. There would appear to be some very heavy handed moderation of posts regarding certain topics and certain airlines on this forum and hence my reluctance to get involved.

I have noticed that there is normally little moderation when the big carriers are discussed or bashed (BA,CX, EK etc) but things can be very different when the smaller 'niche' popular arlines come in for interrogation.

I do hope that this thread is not magically deleted/moderated away, as it is important for the rest of us to ascertain the honest health of the airline industry out there.

There is nothing sinister in my starting of this post, no glee if the rumours are true, merely considerable concern about the current climate. I wish all concerned the very best.

I have aspirations to step up to the longhaul arena at some stage myself, and am merely attempting to plan ahead as best I can....

Kind Regards

Nobby, I must admit that I didn't look at when you registered only the amount of posts you had made along with others on this thread (and considering when I first registered and the amount of posts I've made, maybe I should have a look in the mirror!!).

My point was that over the years, there has been an increase in the amount of 'one hit posters' coming onto PPRuNe and posting emotive threads (redundancies, companies closing etc). I'm sure that in the couple of years you've been around, you've seen these as well. I accept that you aren't one of them but took your post as either being one of these or from a current VS pilot trying to confirm some information - hence the reference to the private forum.

I have no idea whether they, or others, are looking to make redundancies but given the figures from BAA earlier this week about a 10% reduction in passengers in Q1 09, you have to say that airlines in general are taking a hit and I would be surprised if none of them were looking at costs in great detail.

With regards to you getting into long haul in the future, I have no answers or advice for you save to wish you luck in your aspirations:ok:

Regards

airmail

airmail, thank you for that. I appreciate your comments wrt one shot posters !

Now then, back to the original point, any information ?

Rgds

There is a private forum and since you are asking it here in public, I am wondering what your reasons are for asking? Are you planning to send your CV in and wondering if it is worth it?

If you are current VS perhaps you have heard a rumour somewhere. If so, show your cards and some ppruners may show theirs

Now I recall why I was a lurker for 2 years + ...........

BetpumpS if you would kindly reread my post in reply to airmail then I have already 'showed my cards' by explaining that I have aspirations to join a LH company. If the LH players are laying people off then I would like to readjust my game plan and think very hard about the future. If I was current VS then why would I be asking this question on the open forum ???

Sincere apologies, but I am at a loss as to why a straight forward, honest question is being met with such animosity and suspicion ??

I hear (unconfirmed) 65 - unpaid leave upto two years/ part timers etc. So the number was 10% . So 650 pilots in total at Virgin shaglantic. Good luck to them all.
In the end it will be about 30. Last time they laid off there were down grades etc. and it was LIFO. :sad:

Apologies Nobby,

I didn't notice that sentence. Just like you, I'm trying to plan my future due to the balls up I made. As I understand it, I didn't think any LH airline (except Emirates and other Gulf States) were recruiting at present. Are you looking for DEC? If so, you may have better luck with the middle east.

In all honesty, BA/VS pretty much follow one another and the whole industry as I'm sure you know.

For the past 18 months I have heard rumours and tend to ignore them until something substantial comes out. Take Tckvs reply with a pinch of salt. However as educated guesses go, it seems about right for an airline of this size -10%-during the recession.

I think you will find no concrete information as VAA are a small, tight-knit community who are dealing with these issues in private. As it should be.

I don't expect any "real" VAA crew to have posted anything on this forum on this topic following the earlier thread.

Hi,

approx 50 pilots is the figure i have heard. The company are trying hard to avoid any redundancies by implementing other options which will require some flexibility on the part of the other pilots.

After Sept 11th the union ensured in my case that it was (LIFO) last In first out . Lets hope that holds true this time, and is not fleet dependant.

One option rumoured is being able to work half the contracted hours and achieve equal time off, i.e two weeks on/off for slightly less than 400 hrs per annum.

Its a good company, enjoyed my time there, and wish all VS employees the best for the future.

Rgds

The rumour I heard months ago was up to 60. In the last couple of days I have heard it MAY be more. Perhaps 100 but this is only hearsay.

I'll give you a clue Nobby....
If virgin are laying off it doesn't matter if its 50 or 500 pilots I wouldn't bother applying just yet.......:ugh:

"After Sept 11th the union ensured that it was (LIFO) last In first out "

Oh really, I can think of a few A320 drivers with 2yrs plus in the company after 9/11 who might just take issue with you on that. The union rolled over and let them do it and only later on tried to make amends with respect to the same poor sods coming back. If they want to cut jobs by fleet they will, and there is sod all you or anyone else can or will do about it, especially since LIFO is now pretty much illegal under EU law.

Its a rotten bloody state of affairs and having been there myself I can only offer heartfelt sympathy and hope it doesn't happen again.


Best of luck to all concerned.

Were you one of the down graded guys (having been a captain or some years) because your number was higher than some new captains? I do think they could do some luck. All the best too all the line guys and girls.:D:ok:

Being an ex Virgin employee I hope the damage is limited. Good luck to all concerned. :(

Rgds

CL747

Sorry to deviate from the main topic but, contrary to airline managers' wet-dreams, it's not unlawful. The relevant legislation in the UK is The Employment Equality (Age) Regulations 2006 and if you have a cursory read of Section 32 you will see that an employer may discriminate between workers on the basis of length of service. This section has been successfully used to defend length-of-service as a means of selection for redundancy (Rolls-Royce vs Unite). That said, managers will normally always seek to minimise the cost of redundancy which might be why they seem so keen to tell all-and-sundry that LIFO can't be used anymore...

Hi Northern boy,

i have edited my post stating the LIFO specifically affected my case so as to prevent any confusion.

I have no knowledge of the decisions made with the Virgin sun operation.

Rgds.

Khaosai,

It was not restricted to the Virgin Sun operation. Guys with very little seniority were kept on the 747-400 as cover whilst fleet cross trg was carried out. More senior pilots who were still below the chop line but on the wrong fleet were let go straight away. It was seen as a necessity to keep the fleets crewed whilst all this cross training occurred. Things improved a little quicker than thought, whilst these junior guys were still at VA so they were not made redundant. Therefore LIFO was not strictly followed.
BTW all the pilots flying for Virgin Sun were employed by Virgin Atlantic with Virgin seniority numbers.

LIFO was not observed. Virgin had no redundancy policy at all before 9/11. They naively believed it could never happen to them. So when the 747C and 320 fleets were scrapped overnight, redundancy in fleet was announced to the horror of all affected. It took several rounds of lengthy negotiations between the VACC and the company to work a solution where LIFO would be observed, but consessions had to be made. But by then, lots of people on the Classic, 320 and some on the 340 had already gone. The 744 guys were threatened and told to expect it once Classic guys had been trained to replace them, but the truth was that the company had transferred a lot of the Classic work to the 744 and couldn't afford to lose anyone off that fleet. the 744 guys were told to expect redundacy, then unpaid leave and finally were told their jobs were safe.

No one on the 744 was made redundant. I know. I was the most junior person in VS at 9/11. I would still be there now if I hadn't taken the voluntary redundancy package.

Good luck to all at VS.

Hi Right way up,

thanks for the info.

Rgds.

Not quite correct. As I understand in this case, length of service was used in a redundancy selection matrix in conjunction with other selection criteria - not solely LIFO.

In fact it was the union (Unite I think) who insisted that Rolls Royce implemented that criterion as it was the employer who deviated from a collective agreement that included length of service as one of the selection criteria in their redundancy policy.

Length of service was deemed a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim in this case as it was used with other selection criteria.

By implementing LIFO as the only factor in deciding redundancies, this would most likely be judged as indirect age discrimination and would be a risky and potentially expensive strategy to adopt in my opinion.

Why would managers seem keen to tell all and sundry that LIFO can't be used anymore? Surely, this method of selection if used as the only selection criteria (if legal) would be the cheapest option to reduce staff as anyone with less than two years service would not be entitled to statutory redundancy payments. Severence pay or lieu of notice would also be negligable.
The biggest concern with redundancies is many employers adopt a redundancy selection matrix that can be 'tailored to fit' to ensure that 'certain personnel' or groups will be targeted.

Whatever selection method is used, myself and Mrs 777 have recently gone through redundancies and I can sympathise with people in a similar situation.

I understood the minimal cost to include a cost saving ie to make redundant the more expensive members of staff, generally (very) those who have more years service.

I understand a points system was used in the end to select surplus pilots. Length of service made up the vast majority of points.

All very sad.

Redundency
 

With recent experience of working on a selection criteria, you cannot just use LIFO, you set up a matrix, usually to score points, then and only after an independant agreement on the points selection do they make a decision, if there are matching points in the "pool" of people then LIFO can be used to make a final decision.

In general there are usually:

- 5 selection criteria
- 2 seperate people grade the same person
- A discussion to ensure the gradings have been done fair and are not wildly apart
- That the criteria is factual where possible, sim assesments, attendance, sickness normally would be used as these can be measured
- a deciding factor should there be a number of people with similar scores, this is where length of service comes in

This is all done with a consultative commitee or a union

This is a standard procedure, very painful to all concerned and those involved

Good luck to all

There seems to be lots of discussion on the criteria that Virgin will use but more importantly, what is the current state of play regarding redundancies?

I know a couple of people at the bottom of the seniority list and I heard from one of them, (third hand however!) that some crew have been placed onto a shortlist or similar if redundancies take place?

Is this true? Can anyone supply a more accurate summary of what is going on?

Hi,

i have heard the critieria might be how long you have worked there, the skills you currently have, and if you have been a bad boy with any current disciplinaries.

The initial rumour of approx 50 redundancies might be wrong, hopefully becoming at the most half of that figure.

Good luck to all involved.

Rgds.

From experience, when mass redundancies are first announced, the end figure has always been less than the required headcount reduction stated at the onset of the procedure.

In effect, this is to give a sympathetic impression of the employer (maybe not ideal terminology considering the context of the topic) and it also allows the union(s) to proclaim that they have done their bit in reducing the amount of redundancies when in reality, the employer has reduced their workforce by the desired amount anyway!

What does seem strange with the VS redundancy situation is that there seems very little media attention - certainly up here in the wilds of Durham, whereas, had it been BA, any employee/employment issues are covered ad nauseam.

Again, from experience, such a situation in a working environment can be distressing, but what really really was the worst experience was the backstabbing and 'tittle tattle' that was going on as everyone was jockeying for position in an attempt to retain their jobs - this made everone suspicious of their colleagues and made for a depressing day 'at the office'.

Good luck to all involved anyway.

VS Redundancy Numbers
 

These figures represent the number of CR:

14 from the 747 and 10 from the A340.

And just to clarify the above post that represents the bottom 24 of the seniority list.

I've heard that 50 people have been told today that they are to go. Anyone shed any light on this?

No, because it is incorrect. Posts 31 and 32 reveal the real situation.

And a sad day it is too. It needn't have come to this.

I don't agree that BALPA have questions to answer.

We are BALPA, as I said on our Company Fora, and WE have let ourselves down. The VACC don't seem to agree with that, but what the heck would I know about it?

I, at least did the right thing and did what I said I would do at our BALPA Member meetings in February. i.e. take an option to save someone else's job.

Perhaps the packages weren't good enough, but not enough of our brethren stood up to be counted when needed.

As for coming back? I wouldn't if I were at the bottom of the pile. 15 years plus to Command and all the while looking over your shoulder in more way than one in VS.

In fact, I'm not even sure I'll return. There is life outside Virgin.

Christ, this sounds familiar. Play the tape back seven and a half years and I'm hearing a familiar story. Except this time, mercifully, the numbers are much less. And BALPA were no use then either.

As for coming back, Stan - you are dead right. There is a lot more to life than VS. The company always believed it's own propoganda and thought that Virgin was such a fun place to work which is why people always work for less than the going rate and no-one will ever want to leave. Except that when they finally escape, they realise that there is far more to life than the VS BS. The company were very suprised in 2002 that when they realised they had made a mistake in making so many redundant and invited people to rejoin, that many didn't want to return.

Leaving VS was my best ever career move.

Good luck to the 21.

Have to agree with Dan. I went back after 9/11 and whilst I had some fun and gained some experience, it was probably the worst career move I ever made. The seniority list and LIFO was ignored in a mad panic to unload people and then of course strictly applied when we came back 12 months later and subsequently when promotions started again. It was my choice and so my mistake but it goes to show how being in the wrong place at the wrong time can totally screw your prospects for years in this game.

Easy to be wise with hindsight but my advice to those furloughed would be, if you find something else and have any prospect of a command then stick with it and don't make the same horlicks of your career that I did.

Good luck.