Age Discrimination at Emirates
 

Hello all,

I have recieved a rejection letter from Emirates, the reason being my age. I am fully active and current, typed on the 330, with over 13K total hours, 6k captain, full of spunk and life and willing to contribute to their success as a productive First Officer....never mind my age, 54.

Yet I am refused even the option; they have never seen me, they don´t know that I am in better shape now than when in my 30´s and that I hold many thousands of hours, incident-free, in airline operation world-wide.

Great, so now because of my age I can sit back and watch my life fall apart, all the struggles and studies for nothing, lose my house, who the hell cares, theres a zillion young game boys and girls to be exploited....

I´m angry....anybody else ??

As a 54 yo FO they may not think that they will get enough "service life" out of you, irregardless how great you may be. (I don't know EK's retirement age, btw)

With your experience, why not go on a contract? There's plenty of contract gigs out there for guys like you-as captain, even.

And what is discrimination in one part of the world, is perfectly accepted in another! It's their playground, and their rules, not your likes!

Good luck, anyway.

Reading your short CV it springs to mind that you may appear overqualified as a future FO. Some very young and much less experienced just Upgrades might be intimidated by too much from the right.

They may discriminate on recruitment but once you are in, those "zillion young game boys and girls to be exploited" are equally treated compared to their elder colleagues.
So there's no exploitation based on age. Given the EK requirements, you'd better show some respect for those "zillion young game boys and girls" who have a min of 4000 hours, are in their 30-40's, and try to build their life.

I suggest a better analysis, put things in perspective: you will not lose your house because of your age, you may lose it because of your mis-planning.

Make good use of your experience/expertise and good luck.

AFDS,

Seems to me you think your age gives you the RIGHT to be employed by Emirates, and I'd like to know where that rather abnoxious attitude comes from.

We currently have thousands of applications for what will be MAYBE 100 positions this year (and quite possibly less). The company will pick those that it believes will be most beneficial to the future of the company.

A 35yo with our minimum qualifications will potentially return 30 years of service for the investment in training, you a maximum of 10. It is also a statistical fact that people in your age braket have higher instances of medical problems and can be harder to train. It is an unpalletable fact of life that advancing age makes you less employable than an equally qualified youngster, but neither Emirates or the rest of the world owes you a living.

BTW, 13K is actually a little light on for your age.

Abnoxious I am not you little snot
 

Ah ha, I thought I´d get this kind of answer from the likes of both shortfuel and wizofoz...13000 hours, REAL HOURS, on the line in DC-3, Convair, F50, Bae ATP, B 737 and 320/330 is short ? Short of what ? A title to honourable astronaut ? Give me a break.
This is about age discrimination, not your opinion on how I have planned my life...you are arrogant and abnoxious and believe me, you might one day find yourself in my position....let me remind you you have NO BLOODY IDEA why I am where I am, it´s none of your business anyway.
Just reflect, if you are able, on the age discrimination thread and keep away from my life management issue.:mad:

ADFS, not angry and not surprised! As has been observed already, it's their ball, and they can decide who gets to play with it. It's a competitive world out there everyone, and for us older guys, even more so, but no-one owes us a living. Go forth and spread a bit of experience and happiness around!

I see you point.
Maybe if the age laws in EU hadn't been set then there would be jobs closer to home?
Why people carry on post 60 [unless necessary] is beyond me.... I do know some that can't let go of the gold braid and so called status crap. Quite a few sad cases out there. Not all of them tho, I must stress.
Good luck with your job hunt.

We have more than jes' age discrimination here at EK... that's jes' the tip a the brandin' iron...

EK discriminates against yer religion (ya'll better not be sayin' "shalom" instead a "salam") Apologies to u-know-who, who's the sole exception I'm aware of.

EK discriminates against yer nationality (see above para...)

EK discriminates against yer body mass index... (glad to hear yer in good shape fer such an ol' guy!)

EK discriminates against yer nationality once yer hired... if yer a local ya git all kinds a stuff here the rest of us expats don't: better pay, a pension, different medical, dental and housin'. Different work rules - when it comes ta certain times a tha year there's a dearth of locals on night turnarounds...

The whole country discriminates against ya 'cause yer white and the wrong religion - do a little readin' about the deeper aspects of the local faith an' you'l be real surprised. Discriminatin' against wimmen is still rampant here - in the judiciary the word of two wimmen = one man...

So, if yer a little up tight about discrimination, well pilgrim I'd recommend you be discriminat-ing and choose another place to apply.

The world ain't a fair place. Remember a level playin' field is still designed to produce a winner...

Happy Contrails

Back to Desert
 

I wouldn't worry about EK matey, they are about to crumble back into the desert!
Simon Jenkins: As they did Ozymandias, the dunes will reclaim the soaring folly of Dubai | Comment is free | The Guardian
CX currently doing a roaring trade one way DXB-HKG-MNL for all those cheap labourers no longer required.

If you have two candidates and choose one, you have discriminated between the two. There are any number of criteria that may come into play, and age may be one of them. The fact that you display such a short fuse and sense of entitlement, may be another....

Who the hell cares? Not me and not Emirates. It's a business not a charity. I may sympathise,but the mess your life is in is your problem, and to expect to be hired instead of someone else because you have put yourself in a position of need is wishful thinking in the extreme.

747- Yep, Dubai is in big trouble- However Emirates is not (solely) dependent on the UAE economy, so, while things ain't great, we will probably get through.

EK should have done like these so-called "equal opportunity" employers by rejecting you with no reason perhaps...
Would you be less angry?
I am sure you expected such answers given the tone of your post, you have good reasons to be angry at EK's decision, but try to keep your fellow younger colleagues out of this.

A young game boy.

Sorry, but he doesn't.:=

Unfortunatly, you don't meet the company requirements which means your application will not be processed.

That's a hard one to hear, but if you chose a life in aviation, you know that's not unusual.

Have you tried Etihad, Qatar, Gulf Air etc?

First off, I know ADFS. He is not a whiner, he is a winner, been around for donkey years....but going through a bit of bad luck....his argument is that because of AGE, he will not even be considered...he does not expect anyone to give him a free job, he can damn well earn it...but todays world is clsoing in on those over 45, mark his words....and wizofoz, you can stuff your opinion.:yuk:

But you're telling us about your very personal problems: . . . "I can sit back and watch my life fall apart, all the struggles and studies for nothing, lose my house. . . "

Age discrimination, or "age preferences" have no legal recognition in the middle east and asia. For ladies, age 30 already is old by HGK standards; that's why you won't find those potato shaped grandma flight attendants of United Airlines aboard asian carriers.

For guys like you, applying as one age-54 copilot would raise competency issues. Why are you still a copilot at age 54? Why would you be applying as a copilot with 6,000 hours pic? Why, at age 54, with 13,000 total hours, do you have more hours as a copilot than as a captain?

As an experienced captain applicant, age 54 DEC [Direct Entry Captain] would not be age sensitive. :ooh:

ADFS
Chill dude
Now are tough times and there many more pilots than jobs.
The upswing will come and with it the greatest pilot shortage yet seen.
Nowadays loans are not being extended to prospective students wishing to complete professional training.
Others are deterred by the poor job security in the industry.
Recently completed CPLs are turning to non aviation careers as there are no jobs out there for them. More and more furloughed experienced pilots will be time expired as time goes by.
Then the upswing will come, and companies like Emirates and their snotty ambassadors will come running after you with their hats in their hands, even if you are way older than 54.
Keep a job - any flying job, and your time will come.

Why dont you apply to British Airways??? Oh yes you cant due to their 40years upper age limit!!! Its not just an Emirates thing mate. Who else have you applied to and what response (if any) did you get?

AFDS
Do none of those jobs on flightglobal.com for A330 Captains NOT exist? I would have thought, looking at this website that the A330 is the top of the list when it comes to "fleet type" to be current on. I for one wish I had your problem and I bet there are plenty others like me. Let me know if these jobs are bogus! Good Luck anyway.:ok:

No airline has an age limit in the EU any more courtesy of EU age discrimination laws. This law is also what's contributing to massive stagnation in EU airlines (and increasing the wage bill) at the same time as the downturn :(

Not to worry, ADFS, you will find a position in due course...just keep trying.
In my humble opinion, the older, experienced First Officer is certainly a pleasure to fly with, as they have nothing to 'prove'...they normally just do the job to everyone's complete satisfaction.:ok:

Quote: "Why are you still a copilot at age 54?"

We live in an era of ever increasing change. There are many persons who have made career changes! Becoming a pilot at a later age is not unusual these days.

So he must have flown the DC-3 and Convair recently I presume...:D

Chippybus, certainly there are options out there; I am currently looking at 330positions where age is not eliminating. My reason to post was the fact that for some reason ECONOMY is more important than SAFETY to airlines: when I say safety I am considering my experience, professionalism, safety record and dedication. All they are interested in is investment vs. productivity.On being 54 AND NOT A CAPTAIN, consider I started flying at 34, and in any case HAVE BEEN A CAPTAIN, with over 6K. So what , Glueball, whats the point ? Do you see my point ?:ugh:

Hopefully, you are not running an airline...
Otherwise you would have systematically hired the most 'experienced' pilots, for the sake of the safety...Is that right?

Well, I have to tell you that if you look closely and carefully into accident reports, you will unfortunately find more 'experienced' pilots than you think. Most of them, with clean safety record.

Have you ever thought that you have been discriminate in a deep economical crisis period? I am sure you would have been considered in a more prosperous time. You just knocked the door a bit late.

ADFS,

Sorry you seem to have come under attack by a few of the so called colleagues and fellow professionals (I use the term loosely for two individuals particularly) who are so insecure that they feel you have slighted them in some way. I think the rest of us get the idea, and I hope you get yourself sorted with something soon, as I am sure you will. 50's are the new 30's so they say, which is great because that must make me a teenager again! You'll get snapped up i'm sure:ok:

Thanks dustyprops, nice to get some positive feedback. The 2, wizofos and shortfuel, are undeniably insecure, and obviously new to the profession. I was particularly upset by wizo´s "....and who the hell cares...." pity, the way the world has lost its basic respect for the human condition. I´ll bet in case of an emergency evacuation those 2 would be the first out, nevermind the passengers and crew, because " who the hell cares..."
Pathetic and way off course from what I am talking about.
Thanks to all you guys that responded in a positive way....I am interviewing shortly for DEC at Jazeera and Jet Bird, Oman Air....losing my current 330 job at Eurofly on 15th April, so hope to have some luck.:ok:

AFDS,

I have significantly more experience than you and am 10 years your junior. Would an airline be ignoring SAFETY if they hired you instead of me?

I'm sorry, but do you see that suggesting that an airline is compromising safety because they didn't hire you might come off as being just a LITTLE egotistical?

Did the first airline YOU worked for "Compromise saftey" by employing you, instead of someone more experienced?

Seems our posts crossed AFDS.

The "Who the hell cares" was a quote fron YOUR post, the thrust of which seemed to be that Emirates should have taken your personal circumstances into account when deciding whether to hire you or not.

I notice YOU don't seem to care whether the person who DID get the position was ALSO in need- you DESERVE the job and the hell with everybody else it seems.

If you are in dire circumstances, I do sympathise. I was out on my ear with 2 small kids 3 days after 9/11- but if we had been both going for a job then, would you have gallently stepped aside or taken the decistion of the employer?

I didn't get every job I applied for, including a few that would have been a god-send. But when I got knocked back I didn't rage with rightous indignation that :They compromise saftey because they didn't hie ME!!"...I got on with the process and got myself another job.

...And I trust that at these interviews, you will be informing them that if they DON'T hire you, you'll be all over the internet accusing them of "Compromising Saftey"

wizofoz, just what is your problem ?
I think you have clearly misinterpreted me from the start...as far as your " significantly more experience than you..." I am happy for you. I am not going to get into it, because you probably are talking about what, total hours ?
By the way, I stand by my last post: a little inner reflection on your part might be called for... and believe me, I am not the type of person to cry over internet, but yes denounce discrimination situations that you so seem to justify:ugh:

Well, AFDS, you seem to like throwing your 13k/6k around as evidence why YOU should have been hired.

You don't like the fact that your age was taken into account. Fine. I take it that, if you were an employer, you would always be MOST careful not to take race/age/religion/gender into consideration, whether it was legislated or not.

But if you really want to characterize your previous posts as anything other than a whinge because you were disappointed you weren't hired, or stand by a statement like "They put economy before safety" because they didn't hire YOU, I really don't feel it's me most in need of introspection here.

I also note that anyone who agrees with you is open to praise, anyone who might dare to question you "has a problem".

Should you find further attempts at gaining employment futile, I really would have a long look at your attitude towards criticism

well, yes, of course wizofoz, you are absolutely right, thanks for the magnificent insight to how it all works...:yuk:
all I am saying is, again: because of my age I am completely eliminated from the selection process; not even given a chance to prove my worth...this is equal to race discrimination, which I suppose you´ll have a smart answer for. In any case, enough is enough; go ahead and post your 1494th post to enlighten the rest of us:ugh:

sorry, 1945th post.....lots of posts for someone who´s so significantly busy, eh....look, just drop the subject; you bore me to tears now

Actually, it will be 1,945. Not good with numbers?

I am sorry you were passed over, and, in many societies, doing so because of age is not considered acceptable.

But you didn't apply for a job in YOUR society, and to be upset that the people in this part of the world run their business by their rules isn't going to get you anywhere.

Unlike race, age DOES effect your long term value as an employee. Would you expect to be employed in a country that has a mandatory retirement age of 65 at 64 1/2? 63?

Point is, it's their train set, and to get upset and start making outrageous statements about safety because things didn't go your way does not present you in the best light.

Did you post on a public website to get honest opinion, or just re-assurance, and anyone who doesn't agree can "Go to hell"?

ADFS You should have applied as a DEC....

wizofoz, are you such the bad person that I imagine you are by your venomous posts ? Come on, try and understand my situation...can´t you understand what I am saying ? Everybody else does, why not you ? I am not looking for a pat on the back and I certainly am not as naive as you make me out to be and your sarcasm is actually starting to annoy me so why dont you bugger off and stick your head back in the sand to think up your next sick posting. bla bla bla, you bore everybody:zzz:

I can see you're having a bit of a hard time with it all, AFDS, so, sure, I'll leave it.

Maybe you should write a How To Do It In Aviation book for us nincompoops.
:ok:

ADFS, to be honest, I find it is YOUR attitude that seems slightly out of line. Your responses to Wizofoz have been full of agression, puking smilies, smilies bangieng their head against the wall, you told him to bugger off etc. etc. He has been friendly enough I think. Just because you don't like what he says doesn't justify your posting style. And please, speak for yourself. He is NOT boring everybody else. I have enjoyed his posts more than yours. And I tend to agree with what he had to say on this topic.

Age discrimination
 

Most major airlines have a max. age for hiring FO`s, some even have a minimum and maximum height of the applicant, some airlines still refuse to employ female pilots.
Many airlines also do not inform the applicant why he/she was not successful.

Telling an Arabic airline reqruitment department you are dissatisfied with their policies on reqruitment, will get you a blank stare and a shoulder shrug, and it will not change the fact of you not getting hired.

The fact that you are obviously experienced, and well qualified, does not nessecerily land you a job. These days Airlines can pick and choose among vast numbers of applicants, most of them well qualified.

I hope you get a job soon, but do not feel they owe you the job when you do the interview.

Good luck:ok:

733,

Thanks very much for the support but, whilst I certainly stand by what I have written, it is obvious that AFDS is going through a tough time.

Yes he has been rude and unreasonable, but having been in a similar situation, I can forgive him that and wish him the best, while letting this topic quietly finish.