Any KLM City Hopper new hires on the E190?
 

Are there any new hires going to the E190? Are there any current City Hopper pilots moving from the F50 or F70/F100 over to the E190? Where is the training? Does anyone know where those planes will fly first? Cheers.

I would presume that Swiss would be doing the training? If so then Zurich could well be the location??? :confused:

Say what? Why would Swiss be doing the training on an Embrear when Swiss doesn't have any?

...because that sim is in ZRH... Thanks to Moritz. :E

N1

Duke,

Hiring by KLM will not differ from what is stated on ppjn.com under the KLM factfile. Movement from type to type is strictly regulated by a bidding system based on seniority. If you were thinking of applying to KLM remember that they only consider applications from people who graduated from the KLM flight academy or who are ex-military from the dutch navy or airforce. On top of that you have to be fluent in verbal and written Dutch.

If you can tick those boxes: good luck applying, they still hire about 10-12 people per month. If not, don't bother.

Take care,

SJ

KLM, the airline of one of the most liberal countries in the world, with probably the most unliberal hiring policy in the world.

Thank god there are still less liberal countries with more liberal hiring policies, like for example it's parent company that's accepts everybody that has a licence at any age. You'll have to speak French though (fair enough).

:D

There is nothing liberal about KLM. In my time there I never knew so many vindictive and arrogant pilots.

Believe me, the horror stories one hears of Ryanair are nothing compared to the experiences of some of the ex Air Uk (and indeed dutch) colleagues there. The only difference at KLM is that they wear a tie whilst stabbing you in the back!

Contrast this to Lufthansa, who have a positive discrimination system to attract foreign pilots (at least to the Cityline division) with the opportunity to take part of the entrance tests in English.

KT

There was a punch of KLM E190 guys on training in HEL at Finnair Flight Training Centre couple of weeks ago;)

So do the KLM Cityhopper pilots get interviewed by KLM first? Do they then fly KLM mainline jets after City Hopper? I am confused. Are there two seperate lists? When do they move up to Mainline? Can a mainline pilot bid for the E190 left seat from the 777 right seat for example? Which pilots will fly the E190? Any insight would be appreciated. Cheers.

DD,

All recruitment to Cityhopper is via KLM. There is one seniority list and at the outset you can choose long haul SO (Co-Co) or Cityhopper FO.

The bidding process has changed a bit since I left, but essentially KLM pilots can bid for command on the F100/70 and soon EMB190.

Although there is one list, due to the history, it is effectively still three companies (KLM, Cityhopper and the remains of Air UK).

The detail is very confusing, but the principle is fairly straight forward.

KT

All Cityhopper pilots are klm pilots working temporarily for cityhopper.
There is one seniority list. After cityhopper they normally join the 737 fleet, or when they wait long enough, the 330 or 777 fleet. It all depends on your number.

KLM's hiring is the worst ever!

I fly for a 100% daughter company of KLM on the 737.
Have over 2000 hrs. But because I havent graduated from the KLM flight Academy or Dutch Airforce/Navy I cannot apply. :ugh:

Just unbelievable.

Dutch250,

KLM policy to hire only pilots from KLM Flight Academy, Nationale Luchtvaartschool ( CAE NLS ) and ex Dutch Airforce/Navy exists already for more the 10 years.

Maybe its wrong?!Maybe not.. But you as a Dutch knew this before right!! Blame yourself...Not het KLM..:=

Get over it!

Beafis,

Sounds like a lame exclusionary policy. Perhaps KLM should be more open-minded like many other European carriers. Going to a Dutch flight school doesn't make you the world's best pilot even though you may think so. That's like saying that only male pilots should apply because that's the way it has always been done... I suppose it is reality but that really is "old school" thinking.

The problem is that the Chief Pilot is quoted as saying, in response to this issue, that he is not willing to accept "Half Pilots" in his company!

This breathtaking arrogance is a bit rich coming from the company which caused the worst accident in aviation history!

I'm personally looking forward to 2011 when the non-hostility pact with AF comes to an end. I suspect the crew centre in SPL will be awash with Gallic "Half Pilots".

KT

It would seem that a hiring policy restricted to a national flight school and the national air force might be considered discriminatory.

For that it is enough that a rule has a discriminatory effect in practice even if it isn't formulated to discriminate. (e.g. a company offering no part-time work although it would be feasible or denying promotions to part-timew workers could be considered to discriminate against women considering that women look for part-time work more often than men.)

IMHO hiring restricted to graduates of one or two national schools and the national air force is also a hindrance to free movement of labour. This can be proved by an imaginary extension of that practice to all airlines. If every airline acted like this your choice of flight school would forever limit you to the airlines accepting graduates of that school.

The national air force requirement is even worse because even if you might be able to enrol in a Dutch flying school as a foreign national the Dutch Air Force will not take you.

While this is interesting in principle one might argue that lessened qualification requirements would not be in the interest of pilots or at least make no change.

"Free access" to the major carriers would put more pressure on smaller airlines to improve conditions to keep pilots (as demonstrated during last year's hiring spree). It would however reduce bargaining power for pilots of major carriers as their companies would have a far bigger pool of pilots to hire from.

Within the present "system" pilots at smaller and regional carriers are forced to stay where they are (or relocate to the sandy/steamy parts of the world) which might induce them to apply more pressure towards better conditions at home. (I.e. having the prospect of spending a further 20-25 years flying a CRJ, Dash 8 or the like I will less likely endure bad conditions than with a prospect of "I'll change to the majors soon".)

It would be quite interesting to see statistics on foreign employment in airlines. Obviously having too few national graduates we employ a lot of non-Austrians here, while other countries seem to be rather closed for anyone not speaking the national language. (Asking the UK pilots: are there many non-English/non-Commonwealth pilots in your operation?)

I for one am abyss at the real reason KLM doesn't employ candidates from schools other than KLS/NL/AF/Navy. Personally I think there's has to be a hidden agenda to this. Raising the pension to 60 years with the argument that the pool of new candidates has dried up???

Alpine flyer:

You've got to be kidding. Maybe you got the Dutch Air Force mixed up with the French foreign legion???

I am not kidding, but merely pointing out that training by a national air force as a requirement for employment is discriminatory as such training is barred to all but nationals of the country (whereas AFAIK companies are not to discriminate against citizens of other EU countries).

I don't propose opening national air forces to foreigners. (Although there is no very compelling reason why I should not be allowed to fight Her Majesty's wars if I felt the urge to.....within Europe it is pretty unlikely I should have to fight against my own country anyway.....but this is getting OT.)

'The Chief Pilot saying he will not accept half pilot's in his company'

What's the message to all KLM Pilot's who did not complete their flight training with those two flying schools?

I think the message is fairly plain, don't you?

There are quite a few foreigners in KLM, not only the Air UK contingent, most arrived there through the acquisition of Cityhopper. I don't know how many Dutch come from other backgrounds.

I suspect few people have suffered direct discrimination - the average KLM line pilot is as pleasant and friendly as anywhere else, although I could cite plenty of stories of discrimination that have affected colleagues.

One thing that is immediately apparent on joining is that there are many groups within groups there and at any one time there always seems to be somebody suing the company, usually over seniority issues. I suspect all large companies are like this, but the Dutch seem to have made it something of an art.

If I sound a little bitter, it's because I am. I had my own bad experience (actually after leaving) which I don't wish to detail here. Suffice to say, I stand by my original comment that there are some VERY vindictive and ruthless managers at KLM.

KT

Aren't there supposed to be fewer "barriers" in the EU? This seems contradictory for qualified applicants. They should raise the standards bar (hours, experience, etc.) but still open the door to qualified EU citizens.

Is Martinair a seperate company too? Can you go from Martinair to KLM? And do I have this correct Transavia pilots also cannot go to KLM? Are Martinair pilots compensated well? How about Transavia?

Also, why would a newhire go to the F50 rather than an SO seat on the 744 or 777? Do cadet grades at the KLM academy go into who gets what type of plane? Thanks so much. Very interesting.

Enlightenment? I never knew City Hopper was a direct line into a KLM cockpit. That is great to know. I know some Dutch friends who are interested in the process.

KLM owns only 50% of Martinair. They want to acquire the other 50% but this still had to be approved by the EU. Transavia is 100% daughter of KLM. Performs charter/low-cost ops with 737-700/800. Pilots from aforementioned companies can go to KLM if they meet KLM’s entry requirements; they have to go through a selection like everybody else. No special treatment or priority. The figures on ppjn.com regarding compensation of mentioned companies are quite accurate.

New hires are placed where the company needs them. In the past new hires were even placed on the 737 and 767 as F/O (due to shortages)

In the current situation, KLM flight academy graduates go to S/O positions on long haul. Guys with experience (ex airforce, navy, NLS/KLS with hours) are generally placed at cityhopper.

Currently at cityhopper as F/O F50 (for a year now) Prospect of moving to the 737 next year. This month’s schedule contains only 21 hrs which is good for one’s social life. I prefer this above being an S/O!

Kind regards

Thank you for your kind response. I have a PM for you please.

I'm quite surprised to hear about KLM only taking from their academy or the RNLAF. I know a quite a few people who trained at Oxford via EPST and are now flying for KLM ...

S.

babotika

That's right, KLM's policy has always been, KLS/NLS, Ex airfore/navy and then free market pilots. That has been the policy for more than 20 years (when I started into looking into flying). back then KLS (then known as RLS) produced about 20 pilots a year. A lot of guys got hired of the street until about 1996 (really a lot!!) than from about 1996 to 2001 about 100 hundred guys were hired, it was a bad time.

Then in 2001, hiring took off again, however KLS trained/traines about 120 to 200 guys a year. This still wasn't enough. They do ( for reasons I don't know or understand, I'm a street guy) prefer ab initio pilots. So they went to selected schools, Oxford, martinair and some others to fill their classes.

Beafis.... Whatever m8.

Not even gonna waste words on with you..

cheers.

I really don't see the problem concerning KLM's hiring policy.
If the supply of these flight schools (KLS/NLS or AirForce/ Navy) meets KLM's demand for new pilots...why should KLM then loosen up the selection criteria? Apparantly candidates from these backgrounds are also proficient enough to keep KLM satisfied for over years already. So if you desperately wanted to join KLM, you should have gone for one of the above mentioned flight schools. Like mentioned in a different post, this criteria has been there for years. I'm not going to judge if it's a correct one, but's it is well known one. And besides KLM there are so many great companies to work for! Just be glad you're all having a good job at the moment.

Back on topic: everybody within KLM is eligible to go onto the E190. At the moment people are for example coming from the F50, F70/100 going for RHS or LHS E190. Or F/O 737 going for Capt E190.
But like the F70/100 also new hires are gonna go onto the Embraer eventually. It's a matter of demand.

"I really don't see the problem concerning KLM's hiring policy."

The problem is that not every candidate gets equal changes at KLM. There is no so called 'equal opportunity' recruitment culture at this company. Which is surprising for an open-minded country as Holland and the fact we're living in..........2008.

The fact that this is the case for many years is no excuse. Globalisation started many years ago and every individual has the right to decide which career path to follow. An organisation which makes a selection difference between two equal European certificates is still living in the Fred Flintstone age.

I'm surprised that mother company AF accepts these practises.

So many different discussions going on within one thread. Probably a good idea to start at the beginning.

1. People moving to the E190 fleet and pilot lists within KLM.

Okay, to start of, KLM has a very strange internal system with regards to pilot seniority lists. There used to be 3 companies, KLM Mainline, KLM Cityhopper (which flew the Fokker 70 and a few 100's) and KLM Cityhopper UK (Air UK bought up and painted in KLM colours due to the takeover).

A few years a ago, the pilots who where hired by KLM Cityhopper NL and KLM mainline where merged into one list and one company, KLM N.V. This meant that KLM Cityhopper pilots previously employed by KLM Cityhopper NL where now employed by KLM Mainline and temporarly loaned to KLM Cityhopper. This was a lengthy process all done under the VNV (Dutch BALPA). I wasn't in Cityhopper at the time and I don't know the exact dealing that went on, but I do hear that there was a lot of problems with list, Cityhopper vs. Mainline and also the UK pilots who where employed by KLM Cityhopper UK, who were cut out of the deal. The Dutch side was finally formalised, but on the English side there were some nasty tricks pulled by the management I heard. Again I was not at Cityhopper at the time so I don't know first hand. To come back to one post, at the moment no court cases going on about seniority, haven't been any for some time.

So the situation now, there are 2 groups of pilots at Cityhopper. Group 1, mainly Dutch pilots on the master KLM list employed by KLM Mainline and loaned to Cityhopper and Group 2, English pilots who didn't go over to mainline at the time (for what reasons I will not delve into) and who are employed by KLM Cityhopper UK.

When a pilot enters KLM you do not get a choice where you go, they send you where you are needed. So that could be FO on the F50/70/100 or now also the E190 (all same payscale) or SO on the MD11/A330/777/747. Every 6 months you get a letter where you can see how many people are going to be trained on what positions for the next 6 months. You can then tick a box to apply for that position. Now, to get it they look at a few things.

1. Binding (Bonding) on type, you have a cetrain time you should remain on type unless the company really needs you to go onto another type.

2. List position, depending on when you entered the company you have a place on the seniority list, first on the list, first to get what you want.

The first few crews for the E190 bypassed this principle as they are training crews and came almost exclusivly from the F50/70/100 fleets. But starting Jan. it's the normal bidding procedure. So probably some SO coming off the LH fleet joining as FO's on the E190, some FO's transfering from the F50/70/100 because they want a new challenge, some FO's from the 737 fleet as Capt. on the E190 and some Capt. 50/70/100 as capt. on the E190.

In short the only way you are going to get on the E190 is by being on the KLM master list. (there are some exeptions as there are from what I heard a few KLM Cityhopper UK guys on the E190).

And before you ask, it is not possible to join KLC UK anymore as a pilot, they don't take anyone anymore, only cabin crew and that is getting less every year.


2. KLM hiring practices

At the moment to get into he KLM Mainline list you have to go through the KLM application procedure, as described at PPJN.

I can tell you there are quite a few pilots within KLM (both mainline and cityhopper) who think the application procedure is bollocks. The Dutch language requirement I think personally is fair (no different with LH/BA/AF) but the other requirements I have my doubts.

On the other side don't try to forget that KLM has it's own school in Eelde and have a vested interest in keeping that running at a profit, a way of doing that is making it so that you have to go there before you can enter the KLM. Fair no, economic yes....

Will KLM change it's policy anytime soon, I doubt it. Even though the new head of Flight operations didn't go to the KLM Flight Academy (I think he went to the NLS).

3. KLM Pilot arrogance

This is a difficult one. I think there are 2 sides to this story. Are there KLM pilots who are arrogant, certainly, especially some SO's straight out of the KLM flight academy who haven't landed anything heavier than a Baron IRL. But I seem to think they are more an exception than a rule at KLM, they usually get straightened out by more senior pilots after a while...

Another thing which I know first hand is Dutch attitude and the way they communicate. Dutch are incredibly direct (a term within BA was used to describe Dutch applicants as having to much Dutchness), this quite often comes over as arrogant, when it is not intented that way. (I should know I'm half Dutch).

Lastly, I feel there are arrogant pilots everywhere, in percentage more within the legacy carriers. I don't know where it comes from, but it must have something to do with the fact they fly with a bigger company. KLM, AF, BA, LH they all have there fair share and I don't agree with the assumption that KLM is the only one with that problem.

Euhmm I think I answered all the questions and replyed to some of the comments.... time to hit the AOM and BOM again, simsession coming up...

Hi all,

What happened to professional courtesy for all pilots wherever they are from or which colour jet they fly..

All this **** about arrogant types etc.
Every airline has cool and uncool people!! especially the career airlines

I am a socalled direct dutchman flying for a carrier in the far east based in europe, I have never applied to KLM, eventhough, I meet the entry requirements.These have been in place for a long time. So be it!

It is simple you meet the requirement or not, if you want to work for KLM you make sure you get to meet the requirements. and if you cannot make that happen, move on and make the best of your career.

If I want to work for AF I will learn french. basta( oeps thats italian)

Zomerkoning,

Thank you for your great and informative post.

757Flyer,

As I said in my own post, I wasn't at KLM at the time, so I don't know the exact details.

But mabey a good point, the UK pilots are represented by BALPA are they not? Why was is that BALPA didn't work together with the VNV to go head to head with KLM Cityhopper??

I've heard the argument before that BALPA were cut out of the loop by the VNV, this sounds more like shoddy representation by BALPA than bad pratice by the VNV.

Then again I wasn't there, so I can't really call this one...

Just my 2 EuroCents...

Anyone have flying impressions of the E190 yet? Do you hear any reviews from current E190 pilots? Anyone scrambling to get back to the F70 fleet yet?

I am Canadian, joined KLM in my early 20’s in the latter part of the 1980’s. I have been in the left seat on the 777 for a number of years now. True my ancestry is Dutch, and I spoke passable Dutch upon joining. Nonetheless I am not a product of the KLS system or any other of the regular channels. We have a substantial number of other Canadian, American, Belgium, Norwegian (ex-SAS), South Africans, Israeli, Swiss, and British nationals at KLM. Including pilots trained by the air forces of Belgium, France, Israel, Norway, UK and Switzerland. Most were hired in the late eighties to mid nineties when KLM went through a rapid expansion/retirement phase. And indeed a number came from KLM UK (let’s not open that rancid can again).

In recent years KLM has not had the extreme requirement for crews, and the “regular” channels are providing sufficient number of pilots into the company. In other words I would not be considered if I was to apply today. Ironically KLM was about to open the door further, but the worldwide economic crisis has taken any extra growth out of the system in the near future, and the requirement for crews has been dramatically revised downwards.

The KLS is a wholly owned subsidiary of KLM, and anyone is free to apply to take the course. Hiring preference is given to its graduates, this matches what Lufthansa and Air France do with their programs. If a time comes around again when the normal channels can’t supply the required crews, KLM will open the hiring process to a wider group, as it has in the past.

As far as discrimination goes, please leave the melodrama at the door. Individual grievances are exactly that. There certainly isn’t any systemic problem for foreigners at KLM, all management and training positions are open to all, as I can attest from my current position.

I am sure the comments made by Knee trembler relate to the debacle at KLM UK, and how the Cityhopper brand came about (and please leave it where it belongs in the past, I certainly won’t participate in a rehash). This does not relate in any way shape or form to how it is to operate day to day as a KLM pilot. For ex-KLM UK pilots remember that KLM is no longer a Dutch owned company. We are 100% owned by Air France. So maybe take your pleasure from that fact.

As for your comment about 2011, that has nothing to do with the pilot list (that guarantee expired back in 2007). The 2011 guarantee given by Air France relates to maintaining Schiphol as the second main hub within the group. For the pilots there are agreements in place between KLM, Air France, and the respective unions on how growth and contraction are to be split (2 to 1 as a detail). Each company has its own seniority list, but there is also a third list, which contains all pilots hired after July, 2005. This list combines the pilots hired at Air France and KLM after that date. Nothing is done with this list as far as bidding between the two company goes, but will, I am sure become more significant as the decades pass.

Anyway great the topic (KLM cityhopper new hires on the E190) has been hijacked once again by the bitter people who are having such a hard time moving on with their lives. I can guarantee you that the number of foreign nationals crewing KLM airplanes is substantially higher that it is at British Airways. Or Air France, and Lufthansa for that matter. Both in absolute numbers and as a percentage.

Greetings O.

I am an ex-South African at KLM (744) and can only agree wholeheartedly with the above post. Although there are arrogant pilots at KLM (as at ALL airlines) I have found them generally to be very friendly and polite and proffesional.

Any bitterness I read about here has deeper roots and causes me thinks.......

Markie

Evidently the KLM Cityhopper E190 pilots are very happy and friendly:

JetPhotos.Net Photo » PH-EZA (CN: 19000224) KLM Cityhopper Embraer 190-100IGW by Danny Jones

If the KLM chief pilot says he doesn't want any half pilot I wonder what the doughter of the CEO is doing there... ohhh because daddy put her there!
Indeed, unfortunately a lot of fellow pilots think they're god, the worse kind of dangerous scumbag you kind find on the fligt deck. It surprises me sometimes that bad things as Tenerife could happen again due to the huge ego they carry along...

over n' out.

Hi Autothrust,

I know it's still hard to accept that they don't allow you to fly those shiny jets.
But then calling god a scumb....
I think you're overreacting a little bit.