Any KLM City Hopper new hires on the E190?
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Any KLM City Hopper new hires on the E190?
Are there any new hires going to the E190? Are there any current City Hopper pilots moving from the F50 or F70/F100 over to the E190? Where is the training? Does anyone know where those planes will fly first? Cheers.
Duke,
Hiring by KLM will not differ from what is stated on ppjn.com under the KLM factfile. Movement from type to type is strictly regulated by a bidding system based on seniority. If you were thinking of applying to KLM remember that they only consider applications from people who graduated from the KLM flight academy or who are ex-military from the dutch navy or airforce. On top of that you have to be fluent in verbal and written Dutch.
If you can tick those boxes: good luck applying, they still hire about 10-12 people per month. If not, don't bother.
Take care,
SJ
Hiring by KLM will not differ from what is stated on ppjn.com under the KLM factfile. Movement from type to type is strictly regulated by a bidding system based on seniority. If you were thinking of applying to KLM remember that they only consider applications from people who graduated from the KLM flight academy or who are ex-military from the dutch navy or airforce. On top of that you have to be fluent in verbal and written Dutch.
If you can tick those boxes: good luck applying, they still hire about 10-12 people per month. If not, don't bother.
Take care,
SJ
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KLM, the airline of one of the most liberal countries in the world, with probably the most unliberal hiring policy in the world.
Thank god there are still less liberal countries with more liberal hiring policies, like for example it's parent company that's accepts everybody that has a licence at any age. You'll have to speak French though (fair enough).
Thank god there are still less liberal countries with more liberal hiring policies, like for example it's parent company that's accepts everybody that has a licence at any age. You'll have to speak French though (fair enough).
Last edited by The ghost; 9th Nov 2008 at 09:53.
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There is nothing liberal about KLM. In my time there I never knew so many vindictive and arrogant pilots.
Believe me, the horror stories one hears of Ryanair are nothing compared to the experiences of some of the ex Air Uk (and indeed dutch) colleagues there. The only difference at KLM is that they wear a tie whilst stabbing you in the back!
Contrast this to Lufthansa, who have a positive discrimination system to attract foreign pilots (at least to the Cityline division) with the opportunity to take part of the entrance tests in English.
KT
Believe me, the horror stories one hears of Ryanair are nothing compared to the experiences of some of the ex Air Uk (and indeed dutch) colleagues there. The only difference at KLM is that they wear a tie whilst stabbing you in the back!
Contrast this to Lufthansa, who have a positive discrimination system to attract foreign pilots (at least to the Cityline division) with the opportunity to take part of the entrance tests in English.
KT
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So do the KLM Cityhopper pilots get interviewed by KLM first? Do they then fly KLM mainline jets after City Hopper? I am confused. Are there two seperate lists? When do they move up to Mainline? Can a mainline pilot bid for the E190 left seat from the 777 right seat for example? Which pilots will fly the E190? Any insight would be appreciated. Cheers.
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DD,
All recruitment to Cityhopper is via KLM. There is one seniority list and at the outset you can choose long haul SO (Co-Co) or Cityhopper FO.
The bidding process has changed a bit since I left, but essentially KLM pilots can bid for command on the F100/70 and soon EMB190.
Although there is one list, due to the history, it is effectively still three companies (KLM, Cityhopper and the remains of Air UK).
The detail is very confusing, but the principle is fairly straight forward.
KT
All recruitment to Cityhopper is via KLM. There is one seniority list and at the outset you can choose long haul SO (Co-Co) or Cityhopper FO.
The bidding process has changed a bit since I left, but essentially KLM pilots can bid for command on the F100/70 and soon EMB190.
Although there is one list, due to the history, it is effectively still three companies (KLM, Cityhopper and the remains of Air UK).
The detail is very confusing, but the principle is fairly straight forward.
KT
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All Cityhopper pilots are klm pilots working temporarily for cityhopper.
There is one seniority list. After cityhopper they normally join the 737 fleet, or when they wait long enough, the 330 or 777 fleet. It all depends on your number.
There is one seniority list. After cityhopper they normally join the 737 fleet, or when they wait long enough, the 330 or 777 fleet. It all depends on your number.
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KLM's hiring is the worst ever!
I fly for a 100% daughter company of KLM on the 737.
Have over 2000 hrs. But because I havent graduated from the KLM flight Academy or Dutch Airforce/Navy I cannot apply.
Just unbelievable.
I fly for a 100% daughter company of KLM on the 737.
Have over 2000 hrs. But because I havent graduated from the KLM flight Academy or Dutch Airforce/Navy I cannot apply.
Just unbelievable.
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Dutch250,
KLM policy to hire only pilots from KLM Flight Academy, Nationale Luchtvaartschool ( CAE NLS ) and ex Dutch Airforce/Navy exists already for more the 10 years.
Maybe its wrong?!Maybe not.. But you as a Dutch knew this before right!! Blame yourself...Not het KLM..
Get over it!
KLM policy to hire only pilots from KLM Flight Academy, Nationale Luchtvaartschool ( CAE NLS ) and ex Dutch Airforce/Navy exists already for more the 10 years.
Maybe its wrong?!Maybe not.. But you as a Dutch knew this before right!! Blame yourself...Not het KLM..
Get over it!
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Beafis,
Sounds like a lame exclusionary policy. Perhaps KLM should be more open-minded like many other European carriers. Going to a Dutch flight school doesn't make you the world's best pilot even though you may think so. That's like saying that only male pilots should apply because that's the way it has always been done... I suppose it is reality but that really is "old school" thinking.
Sounds like a lame exclusionary policy. Perhaps KLM should be more open-minded like many other European carriers. Going to a Dutch flight school doesn't make you the world's best pilot even though you may think so. That's like saying that only male pilots should apply because that's the way it has always been done... I suppose it is reality but that really is "old school" thinking.
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The problem is that the Chief Pilot is quoted as saying, in response to this issue, that he is not willing to accept "Half Pilots" in his company!
This breathtaking arrogance is a bit rich coming from the company which caused the worst accident in aviation history!
I'm personally looking forward to 2011 when the non-hostility pact with AF comes to an end. I suspect the crew centre in SPL will be awash with Gallic "Half Pilots".
KT
This breathtaking arrogance is a bit rich coming from the company which caused the worst accident in aviation history!
I'm personally looking forward to 2011 when the non-hostility pact with AF comes to an end. I suspect the crew centre in SPL will be awash with Gallic "Half Pilots".
KT
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It would seem that a hiring policy restricted to a national flight school and the national air force might be considered discriminatory.
For that it is enough that a rule has a discriminatory effect in practice even if it isn't formulated to discriminate. (e.g. a company offering no part-time work although it would be feasible or denying promotions to part-timew workers could be considered to discriminate against women considering that women look for part-time work more often than men.)
IMHO hiring restricted to graduates of one or two national schools and the national air force is also a hindrance to free movement of labour. This can be proved by an imaginary extension of that practice to all airlines. If every airline acted like this your choice of flight school would forever limit you to the airlines accepting graduates of that school.
The national air force requirement is even worse because even if you might be able to enrol in a Dutch flying school as a foreign national the Dutch Air Force will not take you.
While this is interesting in principle one might argue that lessened qualification requirements would not be in the interest of pilots or at least make no change.
"Free access" to the major carriers would put more pressure on smaller airlines to improve conditions to keep pilots (as demonstrated during last year's hiring spree). It would however reduce bargaining power for pilots of major carriers as their companies would have a far bigger pool of pilots to hire from.
Within the present "system" pilots at smaller and regional carriers are forced to stay where they are (or relocate to the sandy/steamy parts of the world) which might induce them to apply more pressure towards better conditions at home. (I.e. having the prospect of spending a further 20-25 years flying a CRJ, Dash 8 or the like I will less likely endure bad conditions than with a prospect of "I'll change to the majors soon".)
It would be quite interesting to see statistics on foreign employment in airlines. Obviously having too few national graduates we employ a lot of non-Austrians here, while other countries seem to be rather closed for anyone not speaking the national language. (Asking the UK pilots: are there many non-English/non-Commonwealth pilots in your operation?)
For that it is enough that a rule has a discriminatory effect in practice even if it isn't formulated to discriminate. (e.g. a company offering no part-time work although it would be feasible or denying promotions to part-timew workers could be considered to discriminate against women considering that women look for part-time work more often than men.)
IMHO hiring restricted to graduates of one or two national schools and the national air force is also a hindrance to free movement of labour. This can be proved by an imaginary extension of that practice to all airlines. If every airline acted like this your choice of flight school would forever limit you to the airlines accepting graduates of that school.
The national air force requirement is even worse because even if you might be able to enrol in a Dutch flying school as a foreign national the Dutch Air Force will not take you.
While this is interesting in principle one might argue that lessened qualification requirements would not be in the interest of pilots or at least make no change.
"Free access" to the major carriers would put more pressure on smaller airlines to improve conditions to keep pilots (as demonstrated during last year's hiring spree). It would however reduce bargaining power for pilots of major carriers as their companies would have a far bigger pool of pilots to hire from.
Within the present "system" pilots at smaller and regional carriers are forced to stay where they are (or relocate to the sandy/steamy parts of the world) which might induce them to apply more pressure towards better conditions at home. (I.e. having the prospect of spending a further 20-25 years flying a CRJ, Dash 8 or the like I will less likely endure bad conditions than with a prospect of "I'll change to the majors soon".)
It would be quite interesting to see statistics on foreign employment in airlines. Obviously having too few national graduates we employ a lot of non-Austrians here, while other countries seem to be rather closed for anyone not speaking the national language. (Asking the UK pilots: are there many non-English/non-Commonwealth pilots in your operation?)
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I for one am abyss at the real reason KLM doesn't employ candidates from schools other than KLS/NL/AF/Navy. Personally I think there's has to be a hidden agenda to this. Raising the pension to 60 years with the argument that the pool of new candidates has dried up???
Alpine flyer:
You've got to be kidding. Maybe you got the Dutch Air Force mixed up with the French foreign legion???
Alpine flyer:
The national air force requirement is even worse because even if you might be able to enrol in a Dutch flying school as a foreign national the Dutch Air Force will not take you.
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I am not kidding, but merely pointing out that training by a national air force as a requirement for employment is discriminatory as such training is barred to all but nationals of the country (whereas AFAIK companies are not to discriminate against citizens of other EU countries).
I don't propose opening national air forces to foreigners. (Although there is no very compelling reason why I should not be allowed to fight Her Majesty's wars if I felt the urge to.....within Europe it is pretty unlikely I should have to fight against my own country anyway.....but this is getting OT.)
I don't propose opening national air forces to foreigners. (Although there is no very compelling reason why I should not be allowed to fight Her Majesty's wars if I felt the urge to.....within Europe it is pretty unlikely I should have to fight against my own country anyway.....but this is getting OT.)
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'The Chief Pilot saying he will not accept half pilot's in his company'
What's the message to all KLM Pilot's who did not complete their flight training with those two flying schools?
What's the message to all KLM Pilot's who did not complete their flight training with those two flying schools?
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'The Chief Pilot saying he will not accept half pilot's in his company'
What's the message to all KLM Pilot's who did not complete their flight training with those two flying schools?
What's the message to all KLM Pilot's who did not complete their flight training with those two flying schools?
There are quite a few foreigners in KLM, not only the Air UK contingent, most arrived there through the acquisition of Cityhopper. I don't know how many Dutch come from other backgrounds.
I suspect few people have suffered direct discrimination - the average KLM line pilot is as pleasant and friendly as anywhere else, although I could cite plenty of stories of discrimination that have affected colleagues.
One thing that is immediately apparent on joining is that there are many groups within groups there and at any one time there always seems to be somebody suing the company, usually over seniority issues. I suspect all large companies are like this, but the Dutch seem to have made it something of an art.
If I sound a little bitter, it's because I am. I had my own bad experience (actually after leaving) which I don't wish to detail here. Suffice to say, I stand by my original comment that there are some VERY vindictive and ruthless managers at KLM.
KT