Summer only Commands!
 

It is rumoured that my company is looking to upgrade some F/O's for Summer only, then put them back in the RHS for the remainder of the year!!

I'm sure the F/O's in question will jump at the chance, as most, but what about the implications of this?

• Safety Implications - Straight in at the deep end. Summer flying then expected to operate as an F/O for the rest of the year (or both as and when required!!).
• CRM Issues (=Safety issues) - You've been operating as a Captain all Summer, then your back in the RHS as an F/O. Where is the Authority gradient now?
• Pay issues - You go onto Captains wages, then back onto F/O wages.....:=
• Seasonal issues - Like most Airlines, especially in Summer, Captains and F/O's are expexted to be flexible. What happens if your company is short of Captains one week when you are now back to the RHS, will they expect you to fly as a Captain? (I'll bet they will)
• Line checks - Are you checked out as a Captain or an F/O, or both.....????
• Not to mention the atmosphere such Commands will create between crews!!!

I'm not saying I'm against such a policy, but it would be interesting to find out what impact (if any) such a policy has had on any other Airlines (UK)!

ps What is the CAA's line on this?

That's the way it is for hundreds of American pilots every year. The more junior guys get furloughed at the end of September.

With respect JW411, we are not in America!

I heard that this type of thing had been tried by other operators and the CAA stopped it. Can anyone confirm this, or if any other UK operators do this!

The company I worked for had this arrangement during the Gulf War downturn.

I was pleased to get command experience , welcomed the extra money and enjoyed flying with co-pilots who I would otherwise not have known.

As far as CRM issues are concerned it was a lesson in diplomacy fom both side once the summer period ended.

If you are a professional aviator then there will be no problems, enjoy the summer and who knows maybe the economy will have picked up and you stay where you are , or at worst your company goes down the pan and you have the experience to get a command elsewhere.

It is also rather like the issue of pay cuts , enforced unpaid leave, the airlines really do not know what is around the corner for summer 2009 , they are hedging their bets and trying to hang on to as many crews as possible to take advantage of any other failures.

CAT 1

If it bothers you that much, in the immortal words of Zammo......just say no.

Never have the words of one of the "Permanent Captains" rang more true :

"This bloody airline isn't Low-Cost.....it's just plain CHEAP !!!"

Seasonal Captains- Seasonal pilots!
Guys lets wake up!
All these because the oil price went up?
I'll assume when the price goes down and the airlines will breathe financially again they start hiring permanent Captains!:rolleyes:
Dream on!

Tsk, tsk. So many young whippersnappers around these days, who haven't read 'Fate is the Hunter' by Ernest K Gann.

If you think seasonal commands is something new then you really should read the book. Nothing has changed in this business since those early days of airline flying.

Until seniority is abolished as a standard for deciding who is next in line for command assessment this will continue. Is it bad? Per se, probably not as it does give eligible senior effoh's the chance to experience the responsibility of command.

When the good times roll on, they'll be well prepared for the job and eventually they'll have a big enough cushion of more junior pilots to keep them comfortably ensconced in their lofty position of responsibility.

Brit bus,

It doesn't bother me in that way, as it doesn't affect me (although I know of some it will). I was trying to find out if this kind of thing is common practice, and are there any other UK operators applying this policy - if so how has it gone (someone told me BMIBaby did/do this)!

Mumbo,

Alas, I'm too long in the tooth to class myself as a "whippersnapper".

Anyway,

Thanks to those whom have added constructive replies.

Bollox.....this company to date has dealt with the issues of seasonal demand by utilizing summer temp contract pilots.
Now, word from on high is....no more contract pilots.
Sounds good, however, they still want the same expensive flexibility, but now, do it on the "cheap' internally...having your cake and eating it comes to mind.

Now....as Cat 1 asks.... has anybody out there got 1st hand experience of this practice in a "UK" operator ??

If you're talking about Monarch, it's nothing new. They did it several times in the 80s and 90s when times were hard.
BALPA was recognised by the company and it still happened, so what is all this bull we hear when something similar happens in RYR?
There is nothing new in this business.

Don´t get me started again... :E

Flybe were doing it 2 years ago on the jet fleet. Other than ruffled feathers from some DHC8 pilots I don't believe there was any other issue. The guys involved all got permanent commands later and already had some experience to bring by then.

No, I think that this is very bad.

1. You get an inexperienced Captain on the left seat, and at the end of the season an out-of-practice First Officer on the right seat. Not a safe-and-smooth thing to do.

2. The guy who has to return to the right seat at the end of the season certainly won't be very happy about it. This may also cause CRM-problems later on.

If it is normal practice in the USA, it shouldn't be an example to any other companies elsewhere. The CAA is absolutely right to prevent such a thing from happening.
IMHO, if an airline believes a First Officer to be ready for upgrade, then he/she should be made a Captain, and a new guy employed to take the FO-position.

Yes - I might agree with your "CRM" logic. But in positions / seats terms, do you now just sack the "extra" Captain :{

NoD

"The CAA is absolutely right to prevent such a thing from happening."

I don't think the CAA have any powers to prevent it happening. Even if they did, they are to spineless to exercise them.

Ref the 'Zammo' post, just a sad flashback moment tbh.

I am, however, concerned by the CRM aspect espoused by a couple of posters in this thread. One would hope that your professionalism and inherent CRM principles mitigates any perceived authority gradient issues. As for the end of season demotion, if the guy knows the score, there should be little to beef about. If anything, it should add considerable value to their FO role as they will have had that brief insight to the 'loneliness of command'.

In a previous lilfe, we often flew with 2 skippers, one of whom would be designated FO for the tour. Admittedly a fairly close knit set-up where we all knew one another, but there were never any such problems. Gadzooks, we even swopped seats!

Still, the CAA aspects etc not really my bag, so I shall retire....bonsoir.

We (through BALPA) said no to temp commands a couple of years ago, all be it times were good.

We also came to an agreement of a maximum of 15 commands to be taken up in the Summer by our colleagues from across the pond.

If our CC were negotiating this now, it may have turned out slightlty differently, we might have settled for temp commands, but for a maximum of one season....who knows

An earlier post alluded to temp commands at bmi baby - I'm certain these did not occur but we did have some contract captains for a while.

Coincidentally, I flew with another captain last night, both of us commented that we felt mildly disorientated whilst acting as PNF in the RHS. A quick RHS check in the sim every 6 months doesn't adequately prepare you for a full day in the wrong seat.

I've been reading all the posts on this thread and the only argument that I find by those, sort of in favour, of this arrangement is that it happened before somewhere!
SO!!!!
Having two captains together is a potential risk that airlines take every now and then in order to address certain issues that may come up in the day-to-day operation!
Imagine this happening to all the airlines because everybody's doing it and all airlines have their low season!:rolleyes:
All flights over Europe in the winter- ALL CAPTAINS
An Army full of Generals- The sargeant (FO's)is on leave!
And at the end of the day people should stop thinking like management and start thinking like pilots!:ok:
I'm sure no one from management gets a downgrade during the low season and certainly no one from management when they sign up deals with subcontractors and get their fat commission, under the table of course, share it with anyone of the advocates we have on this thread!:*

Looker;

I agree with your comment re the RHS check in the SIM not being adequate prep for full time right seat work, result; the Captain in the RHS is working his/her backside off to stay with the program.

that being said, I am convinced it is still a safer combination (when the going gets tough) to have two captains working together compared to working with a brand new F/O.


fluf

You must be referring to Jet2, who are planning this. Other things they are planning are summer only F/Os (who will still have to pay for their TRs). In this way, no more contract captains will be needed. What are the odds on forced unpaid leave in winter 2009?

This is the airline where it is OK for us to be charged to phone into the silly check-in line so they can run roughshod over FTLs?

This is what it means to have no Union representation. Now in the downturn, we might as well drop our pants and hand the soap over...

What's the matter with you pilots...?
 

Are you too "superior" with 4 stripes to sit in the RHS, provided you qualified to occupy the RHS...?
Most of the F/Os I fly with, are fully qualified/current captains.
Which seat we occupy is never an issue.
We have the courtesy of "flipping the coin" to decide who is LHS going out, and RHS coming back.
In a 747 Classic... I even qualified myself as F/E and have flown as such. I am current all 3 seats.
Yes... three captains on some flights, with total of 50,000 hrs experience on the flight deck.
The issue is qualifications/currency, and your paycheck is a contract or union problem.
For me, the PF occupies the LHS, the PNF occupies the RHS.
And I ask sometimes to hand fly an approach and land from the RHS...
Never had an incident involving "who is in what seat".
Don't you have seasonal reductions of crews, either...?
Seems you give yourselves a lot of headaches.
xxx
:ugh:
Happy contrails

Levantes, both JAR and EU-OPS requires the operator to designate one (and only one) commander.

PIC...
 

It is not only JAR, and EU-OPS requiring only one commander.
All airlines and aviation administrations have that one requirement.
It is just a matter to fill in the papers before departure, on flight documents.
Spells PIC on paperwork. He/she is in command. Simple as that.
xxx
:)
Happy contrails

I'm not saying there will be 2 PIC's!
Come on, this is obvious, all I'm saying that being a commander, decicion making mechanism works like second nature!
Having two decicion makers in the cockpit creates potential clushes in case something goes wrong!
It's easy to wear the hat of the PIC when seating on LHS and the PNF hat when on the RHS in a normal flght but when the sXXt hits the fan I'm really not sure how somebody would react!
I personally have my doubts about this!
Again I admit the necessity of this arrangement in certain occasions but not the implementation of such a practice to address seasonality issues!

What on earth is all the fuss about? - it's not as if it's a new idea. I believe many airlines in the UK have used it in the past - and in what way would the CAA object - one pilot is nominated as PIC, signs all the paperwork, the other is SIC and carries out the appropriate duties.

I would say go for it especially if it avoids having contract Captains for the summer - as for the "CRM" aspects, you are meant to be professional pilots for chrissake - perhaps being in the LHS for a summer will make you an even better co-pilot for the winter.

What's the difference between this and being taken over and being bumped down to the RHS as was the case with BA taking over BCAL or even within BA having turboprop Captains bidding into the RHS of the 744's. It meant frequently flying with a crew of 3 or even 4 Captains and I cannot recall ever having any "problems" on the Flight Deck. I can only think of one man who disliked not being a Captain that at the first opportunity bidded for turboprops in Scotland

Like I said before - go for it - any time in the LHS is better than none.

So will any of those guys being offered summer commands be turning them down ? Thought not ... and as we all know life at this low cost operator is a veritable feast of changing opportunities. So the chances of the Summer command being permanent next winter ? probably pretty high given how much "other" flying has been sold for this winter.

So grab the command and then watch the picture and the shape of things to come, its not perfect on the face of it this option. However if it means no more expensive contractors limited to 75hours and perm captains rostered 90 hours sounds good, if it means some of the F/O's who are ready for command get their grubby mitts on the LHS it sounds good, if it means that we save a "boat load" of cash by not paying placemnt agency fees again sounds good. We all know those summer contracts will end up permanent in good time.. my advice grab with both hands and run with the ball.....just dont kick the ball into your own goal its never a good look !!!!!

The three most dangerous things on a flight deck.
- Two captains on a flight deck.
- A doctor in a Bonanza.
- A flight attendant with a chipped tooth.