OpenSkies? Sell your soul
 

I've just had sight via email of some of the employment contract for OS.

It's like Ryanair on a bad day.

Still if what I have heard is true most of the FO's are not English so anything goes when you're desperate. Very sad.

Unless we fight these idiots this is the future of our profession, exactly what the Leprechaun wants.

" The Company may extend your probationary period by giving notice to you. You or the Company may
terminate your employment at any time during the probationary period by giving no less than 1 month's written notice."

"You acknowledge that it is a material term of the contract that you will be required to be flexible to accommodate the changing demands of the business of the
Company and its Associated Companies. The Company may vary any aspect of your role and duties from time to time."

"In each applicable bonus year the Company will determine in its absolute discretion whether any bonus is payable and the level of any such bonus."


"The Company may instruct you as to when all or part of your holiday entitlement should be taken. You may be required to work on any public or
statutory holidays without additional remuneration. The Company may cancel any planned holiday in the event that business reasons require it. In such circumstances
you will be permitted to rebook the holiday
You will be operationally assigned to a cluster of airports within Europe (a "Cluster'? and a nominated airport within that Cluster from which your flying cycles will
normally begin (a "Gateway Airport'). The Company may at any time and at its sole discretion: (a) change your nominated Gateway Airport; (b) change the airports
included in a Cluster; and/or (c) change the Cluster to which you are operationally assigned"


"You will work such hours as the Company rosters you to work. Rosters will be made available at a reasonable period prior to each flying cycle. The Company may vary
the rostering arrangements at any time"

Well. If ever MOL is incapacitated Willie is a shoe in.

:(

Probably the same conditions as at Flyglobespan , XL , Jet2 , Astreas plus all the mainland-europe 757 or 767 operators.

Old aircraft and unstable airlines , not the top terms and conditions.

What else is new ? Openskies certainly not.

Next.

Which is probably why there are some from each of the above airlines who've gone to join OS.

I imagine Nigel, you are from BA? The strike is none of my business but I hope BA pilots don't take it out on those who OS has empolyed.

Then again, most BA crews ignore everyone else from other airlines anyway! :rolleyes:

Of course they do, they can't be arsed listening to cheap digs like that from yet another comedian. Anway, I never ignore another airlines hosties.:E

You mean all those guys who broke the IFALPA recruitment ban?

Ive read the open lies contract and can assure you ,most charter contracts despite the usual issues, have none of that crap in it.
As for the ones that allegedly may be going from xl or jet2 etc.I Am not immediately aware but looking at the the usual trends other than the posible ex BAretiree they are probably the usual suspects who have run out of companies to p1ss off. A motely crew of transient chaps who have done the rounds thru most of the companies mentioned below and still cant figure out why they cant hold down a job.

Is hiring transient moaners part of open skies busines plan?

It's not a cheap dig at anyone nor am I taking sides and I also happen to be a union member.

Those who I know who've gone to OS are extremely experienced and very good pilots.

My point is that OS would of employed someone no-matter what so don't take it out on those who have been employed.

Or, alternatively, if everyone had respected the IFALPA ban, it would have made the cause of improving the conditions much easier.
Breaking a recruitment ban on the premise that someone else will if you won't still makes you a scab.

Be very careful 757speedbrakes.
It makes no difference whether you're a union member or no, if you criticise, or imply criticism of BA the moderator is likely to remove your posts without warning.

Good point, well made - doubt it will last the day.

quote hand solo : You mean all those guys who broke the IFALPA recruitment ban?

The what?? its not worth the paper its printed on! If you are not a union member you are very unlikely to have heard of it. It has no legal weight at all, bit like your strike action! :E

quote: Anway, I never ignore another airlines hosties.:E

thats probably because your own wont socialise with you down route! It is a well know fact that nigels are often abandoned by their cabin crew.....i wonder why? :E

If you are going to try to goad us 757flyer then at least try to keep up with facts. Even BA aren't disputing the legality of a strike action. If I were you I'd go back to thinking hard for a few weeks about trying to come up with a decent put down then pop back and amuse us once more. There's a good chap.

PS If you learn how to do proper quotes like I've just done it'll make your posts look so much better. That ought to keep you busy for a while.:ok:

No need mr Hand Shandy, most of us couldnt give a flying about BA its pilots or your dispute. For years you have taken advantage or ignored the plight of other pilots groups (Dan Air etc) and quite frankly deserve everything thats coming to you. Its a damn cheek that you expect others to take action on your behalf and your threats about ignoring a worthless IFALPA ban are just that.....worthless.

As for the "but if we loose this your terms and conditions will suffer", absolute rubbish!

Now go and see if you can socialise with one of your own hosties, a much bigger challenge for you..........That ought to keep you busy for a while.:ok: or an impossible mission? :O

Good to see the bitterness come flowing out 757flyer, I trust it is cathartic for you. Still struggling with the quotes thing I see.

Yet another thread degenerates into mud-slinging and anyone offering an alternative view is treated as a heretic.

The way I see it, BA are starting a subsidary serving new routes - no one is losing their job and no one is having a pay cut. Indeed some guys are getting a job that is presumeably better than the one their leaving otherwise they wouldn't be doing it so I see that as a good thing.

BA pilots are no better or worse than any others I've come across in my 30 years in aviation - met some great guys and some not so good both from BA and from elsewhere. One thing BA pilots don't ever seem to grasp is that aviation is bigger than BA; there are lots of others guys out there who want the best job they can get.

Great post gypsy, well said!
757flyer likewise.

Still smarting from BACX Beerbelly?

What an unpleasant patronising erk you really are Hand, may you live in interesting times!

Blimey they're all coming out of the woodwork tonight, wonder how many more multiple identity BACX posters will be disclosed? May we all live in times when any thread related to BA can run it's course without a stream of ex-BACX employees coming out to vent their spleens. I fear I'll be an old, old man before that happens.

It will become obvious very soon just whom will be in the majority at OS.
Low-time, under-qualified, those with violations , life time non-sched guys and otherwise undesirables willing to ignore and subvert the hiring ban. In a nut shell, people who lack character. No wonder Willie has sought you out, he is just like you.

Rationalize it any way you can that let's you live with the fact...you are a SCAB and will be remembered by your colleagues as such for all of your days.

Well here's another one Hand.
Just wondering if your IFALPA recruitment ban applies to ex BACXers returning to their previous employment status? Working for a BA subsidiary company.

Does this attract full scab status, or is there a watered down version?:rolleyes:

And to be a SCAB, do you technically have to be a member of a union...?;)

No.
Thanks for asking.

Never been in BACX

The previous posts have shown some really nasty little minds

Going back a few years, 4 F/O's in the company I then worked for applied to BA - 2 were snotty rude gits and 2 very good well adjusted competant guys - guess which 2 got the jobs !

As I've already said, I also know some excellent ex BA guys.

Could the BA contributors just try and get away from the idea that they're better than everyone else because do you know what.................you're not different from the rest and the continued suggestion otherwise does nothing for your cause

Can anyone tell me of an occasion when pilots in BA have put their necks out for the benefit of pilots employed elsewhere in the industry?

So if someone wants / needs a job with OS, why shouldn't he take it - and as for the talk of scabs - pathetically reminiscent of the Ozzie dispute and what a great success that was (not).

For heavens sake grow up guys

even though I support the BA pilots and their plight against BA i really have a problem with this "scab" attitude. we are not living in the 1970s, give it a rest guys.

Aha, yes, there it is: "The BA WAY", like a very special kind of weed or pest that can be identified by airline botanists the world over, "The BA WAY" has put in another appearance.

It works like this: BA take over Dan Air in the meanest, cruellest way imaginable. BACX likewise. A very great many pilots lives are ruined by BA MANAGEMENT. BA then create a Trojan Horse subsidiary designed to screw over the mainline BA pilot force some years after screwing over everyone else that came within range. Every single pilot who was screwed over in phase one, (Dans and BACX), now rubs their hands with glee and says "got you too now, you bastards, you deserve every inch of the bat your going to get".

Meanwhile the same BA MANAGEMENT that created the Dans and BACX situation in the first place laughs itself sick at the way they so deftly created Pilot Fatricide and sees us all for the suckers they have always taken us to be.

So, if "The BA WAY" is not to become a virulent pest that attacks pilot terms and conditions wherever they may be found, what then is the way to eradicate it? Answers on a postcard to Gardeners Question Time.

Alternatively, try seeing the much talked about "Big Picture" and see Open Lies for what it really is - an attempt to screw over every commercial pilot working in Europe by some very greedy, very cynical guys indeed.

That said, I suspect some of Open Lies most rabid supporters on pprune are not what they seem. Take them with a pinch of salt. Keep running the propaganda Robin - your betrayal of your own profession makes me sick, as does your Evangelical Cant

"even though I support the BA pilots and their plight against BA i really have a problem with this "scab" attitude. we are not living in the 1970s, give it a rest guys."

===========================================

Please tell me how the 70's are different than now in regards to this issue?
The only difference is in the minds of those who no longer have the will to defend the profession, but will equivocate for convenience. God forbid we should call a scab a scab.

"Can anyone tell me of an occasion when pilots in BA have put their necks out for the benefit of pilots employed elsewhere in the industry?"

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Yes.
On Apr. 15th of this year, BA pilots supported AA pilot's picket at Glaxo, and they continue to support us now.

Two other interesting points I've heard from someone who is thinking of applying are that one would be required to sign up to a £18,000 bond over a 2 1/2yr period, & that all the cabin crew are to be New York based. It aso appears that although all applicants are welcome, those that are not currently type rated will be strung along with questionable promises.
They are also having trouble finding a training manager, I believe they are on their 5th round of selection interviews, people have said they will take the job and then on reflection withdraw.

In terms of sticking your neck out for someone else I was meaning something that causes you pain or loss.

Think of the Capt Johnny Blogs flying his Boeing Glass Cockpit for JOT6 airlines on 60 something K per annum, bugger all duty pay and no crew food and wondering if his outfit will last through the economic gloom and fuel price crisis - now he could get a better job with OS with much better T's and C's yet some of you guys expect him to pass up the opportunity in order to protect what you perceive to be a threat to your T's and C's whch are already miles ahead of his................!

Can you see why he is likely to go ahead anyway regardless of playground name calling.

As for BALPA who seem so opposed to OS, can any BALPA type tell me why OS is different to the EasyJet continental salaries and T's and C's which BALPA have agreed? EasyJet's continental bases aren't even a subsidary airline - one AOC and one airline yet different T's and C's and I hear BALPA have agreed the new conditions for pilots at those bases.

No one in BA is losing their job or having a pay cut as a result of OS.

Yet.

One 757 is not going to have much effect. Try 24 787's.

"Can anyone tell me of an occasion when pilots in BA have put their necks out for the benefit of pilots employed elsewhere in the industry?"

That is exactly what BA pilots are doing now!!!, many pilots in BA have worked in other airlines and indeed other industries and are not, as some posters on here imply, BA nigels who think only of BA. Most BA pilots have worked hard to get where they are, and looking at the other posts on this forum many other pilots are also trying to get that job in BA to have all the benefits it brings.

It is widely recognized that most airline managers see BA terms and conditions as the upper limits to the expectation of their pilot workforce, therefore if the BA T&C's are eroded then there is no way other UK airlines will enhance their T&C's they will be eroded too.

So in answer to the above question in trying to protect their own T&C's constantly they are protecting others, and now more than ever with the "credit crunch" and their support for strike action.!!!

Gypsy, you write very good stuff.
It may be true that BA management have a bad press for their past and present actions and attitudes, yet if the BA pilots cannot (or maybe refuse to) see how they are perceived by your JOT6 airlines example (and for that, read also most UK Turbo-Prop outfits pilots) then they are doomed to fail; or at least, doomed to ever get any sympathy or support.

ShortfinalFred said:
Yes. Absolutely. If there had been ANY support from BALPA at that time, of the same nature and volume currently being deployed against the OS concept, then I'm quite sure the vast majority of posts on here would be different.
Unfortunately, there was zilch support, because it didn't concern you, or your pockets. Your current argument for altruism reeks of hypocrisy.
Sorry, nothing personal, just history, and fact.

Serious Apologies
 

Apologies in advance for thread creep, but I think this is relevant. A bit of general browsing led me to the EZY to BA thread, where I read the following. I believe it says alot about the entire BA WAY as applied throughout that Company. Nothing personal chaps.:E (my italics)

Wingswinger said:
No mention of scabs either....

I very seriously doubt it.

Joe, I hope you are right and I'm wrong,this is a long term effect I'm looking at and not short term. As quoted by other international pilot unions, they wish they had stood up as a group to the "Trojan horses", introduced in the form of American eagle(USA) and Jetstar(aus).

As a pilot with quite a few years let in the industry i hope that any threat to our collective T&C's can be quashed before our managers implement them :uhoh:

'ltn and beyond' - I hope that too.

However, as is frequently made clear by Hand Solo and/or Tandem Rotor, it is up to individual company councils or similar groups of pilots to put their own cases forcefully enough to prevent any such threat becoming fact within their own airline.
It's difficult to see in reality how any cross-industry grouping from more than one airline can legally (even supposing they wanted to, and BA have not demonstrated much history of that) take industrial action on behalf of different carriers.
However, the BACC line that any group of pilots, by electing and supporting a strong CC in pursuit of their own best interests, can maintain their own Ts and Cs where they wish...is actually broadly correct, and regardless of OS, Jetstar or anyone else will in theory always be effective.

In the meantime, it's difficult to see why any of us wanting to improve our own situation should not join OS if we so wish - otherwise we are putting the interests of others before those of ourselves and our families.
I leave it to the forum to decide - (assuming this post is allowed any longevity) - whether BA pilots have genuinely and collectively ever demonstrated such commitment to non-BA pilot groups.

Ironically, away from the vitriolic mumbo jumbo postings that some erstwhile members of our supposedly 'professional' workforce choose to post, I too enjoy my daily work at BA.

Most of us have the ability to treat BA as a job just like any other. I don't feel any better than anyone else flying the skies but I do feel I have achieved a good balance in working lifestyle and my terms and conditions. Hence the reason for my coming to BA. Most line pilots will try and protect their terms and conditions as is natural in a cut throat industry where the bottom line is king and we are all under immense pressure from the spiraling price of oil.

I personally, and also the view of the vast majority of my colleagues, have no axe to grind with anyone who wishes to join OS. As has been stated before in these threads, in the occasional moment of clarity, there are many people who will be willing to accept these T&C's as there are not many alternatives at the moment. As a pilot workforce we should never be bitter towards anyone who wants to fly to support themselves and their families. It is snyd, pointless and degrading. The word 'Scab' is vulgar and wholly inappropriate.

I don't agree with attacking the workforce that an underhanded trick by scurrilous management have recruited. What I do object to is that the entire BA pilot workforce get tarred with this 'I'm holier than thou' brush when people choose to discuss these matters. The management, coupled with the accountants have bred this all. Certainly the take over of other airlines has caused pain and grief, that is never in doubt. The handling of these take overs was forced through by the BA management in yet another underhand manner. Possibly, at the time, more could have been done to accommodate the merger/acquisition in a people friendly manner but this is not, never has been nor ever will be the 'BA Managers Way'.

We live in a world where our industry is under constant attack from environmentalists, politics, terrorist, oil price etc. We need to achieve some stability in our terms and conditions before they too start to plummet down as yet another excel spreadsheet cost cutting measure. Only by standing up to the management, not bitching constantly between ourselves, can this be achieved across the entire profession not only BA.

I will watch and wait, should be a few interesting months.

:ooh:

You're not keeping up again Gypsy. BALPA are not opposed to Open Skies, and BALPA have stated they are willing to accept different T&Cs for Open Skies to Mainline in order to keep start up costs low. No different to Easyjet. BALPAs only demand is that all Open Skies pilots are on the BA master seniority list.

The logical extension to your argument is if mainline go on strike and BA sets up Strikebreaker Airlines then Capt Blogs should have no qualms about joining them as it's a much better offer than he's currently got. What happens when someone comes along who'll do it cheaper than Blogs? There's always someone who'll do it cheaper.

When will the moderator start deleting threads with "scab" etc. I find it all a bit OTT. :rolleyes: People have a choice in life and so it should always be. If your family need feeding and open skies is a step up the ladder can you blame anyone for that. The militant posters here may say that OS will affect their income, but when you earn BA money you forget what it is like earning much much less.

Peace dudes D and F:8

wobble deep and fast
 

Wobble - Please may I applaud your opinion.

Deep & Fast - Hear hear.

In parenthesis, I think it most unlikely that the application or not of a small number of candidates for this airline will have any effect at all on the tactical and strategic outcome. What's next? Boycotting Eastern Europe as the JAR Licenced and 757 rated applicants come from that region. And those boys would see OS as a HUGE self betterment. Do we re-erect a curtain across Europe?
Negotiation, not union bully boy intimidation is the answer. BALPA are being every bit as specious as BA management.