Idiotic JAA
 

Well this post is more of a statement.....

I am a dual US/Citizen of a European Nation.

I have been looking in to converting my US ATP with multiple type ratings and several thousand hours of flight time.

The conversion process is extremely idiotic, meaningless and bureaucratic in nature, for no reason other than being difficult.

You have to sit in on 14 written test that is designed to be extremely difficult, with a very high failure rate, even after you have proven yourself as an experienced aviator....then the buffoonery is not over yet, you have to take additional check rides in an airplane to prove to the European member states you can fly an airplane.

I have no idea who came up with this rules(read the UK) for the European member states. This does NOT promote additional safety in ANY way or fashion. This only hampers and prevents any safe operations of European aerospace. Right now they hire extreme low time copilots that possess the
JAA license, but with NO experience instead of hiring the best they can from overseas or worse yet park airplanes because of pilot shortage.

I think the European aviation authorities should be ashamed of them self for this legislation and meaningless rule making.
This does not promote any additional measure of safety, other than limiting airlines in Europe from hiring the best qualified pilots they can get. After all this is a global economy. I believe if you have a work permit or citizenship in a EU or European member state, possessing a pilot license from a ICAO or FAA country it should be fairly easy to convert a commercial or ATP license.

The FAA in the USA is very accommodating and helpful in converting a JAA European pilots license. This is ludicrous as I am sure most of my fellow aviators would agree. I am going to file complaints with FAA, and also with congressmen that is involved with the FAA legislation to start retaliation against this unfair practice., the FAA practices very fair and non discriminatory practices regarding this. If you want to work in the US you need a Green Card or Citizenship, something thats very fair.

Shame on you Europe for the JAA system.......

:ugh::ugh::ugh:

True, but then on the other hand, it's almost impossible for a foreign national to work in the US. Your immigration system (INS) is about as bad as our licensing system (JAA) with a similar effect: keeping the foreign pilots out. :{

p.s. Don't be mistaken to think that the JAA makes it any easier for EU nationals to convert an FAA license. :{

Funniest post I've read in years... the wise and noble FAA vs the blasted rotters of the CAA/JAA. This will be fun... ;)

Really? Off the top of my head I can name about two dozen europeans working in the U.S., and I have met dozens more. I can't think of a single U.S. citizen working in Europe, though.

And yes, what the JAA requires you to do to convert your FAA ticket is nothing short of harassment.

FAA
 

Yes of course there is tons of Europeans working in the US thats my point...the FAA is very lenient and accommodating with foreign nationals....as opposed to the Europeans. Where it is a brick wall of lunacy :ugh::ugh::ugh:

We have at least one US citizen flying our jets (Major European integrator).

I got my CFI in 1991 and eagerly put my name on the list at the local FBO.

Didn't get many students though - three dutch fellows were living in a pop-up camper behind the hangar, sweeping floors and answering phones for free, and they got first crack at any prospective students.

They were nice guys, and I admired them for working so hard to be professional pilots. I did resent, however, that I couldn't cross the pond and work in their country.

The JAA wants you to have some fundamental knowledge Wheter or not it's useful is another matter. There are LOTS of useless exams in the US (SAT, GRE) that don't tell you anything about the applicant and are likewise insulting to a foreigner's intelligence. Do the exams, or don't work in Europe.

HO MY DEAR.....:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

This only hampers and prevents any safe operations of European aerospace.

-SAFETY AS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE PROCESS OF CONVERTING YOUR LICENCE. HAVING AN FAA LICENCE IS JUST AS SAFE AS HAVING A JAA ONE.

You have to sit in on 14 written test that is designed to be extremely difficult

-THE 14 WRITTEN EXAMS ARE DESIGNED TO GIVE YOU A MORE COMPLETE KNOWLEDGE OF AVIATION SUBJECT. IF YOU THINK THE ARE VERY DIFFICULT, YOU HAVE GOT A PROBLEM.

Right now they hire extreme low time copilots that possess the
JAA license, but with NO experience instead of hiring the best they can from overseas or worse yet park airplanes because of pilot shortage.

-WHERE YOU BORNE WITH 1000s OF HOURS LOGGED ON YOUR LOGBOOK??? I DO NOT THINK SO. IF YOU THINK YOU ARE GOD OF AVIATION YOU MIGHT HAVE ON MORE PROBLEM...:=:=:=:=


I CAN TELL YOU OF AT LEAST 10 US CITIZENS WORKING FOR MY AIRLINE IN THE EU.


THE JAA IS NOT PERFECT, BUT YOU CAN NOT EXPECT TO BE GIVEN A LICENCE JUST BECAUSE YOU WISH SO...
GOOD LUCK

Plenty of non europeans flying with BA!

How about being proactive?

Instead of solving the problem, you want to double it by getting the FAA to do the same?

The JAA tests are there to weed out psycho Yanks who think they can come over here with their Orville and Wilbur store card license (it's LICENCE!....oh no, but wait, you call it a certificate don't you. And here's me thinking that certificates came on sheets of paper. Oh well.)

To borrow one of yours.....Gimme a break, dude!

Big Mouth
 

Yes Sir that what ....my point was of course there is tons of Europeans flying in the US and yes I know a couple of Yanks flying in Europe. My point was the meaningless obstacles.....

Calm down cosmo boy,

747jetdriver,

The JAA exams are a pain in the arse but they are the hoops we all have to jump through to get the shiny licence:ugh::{, in a perfect world there would only be one licence for everyone......but there's not and until that time if you want to come to work i Europe, which you are welcome to, I would suggest getting your head into those nasty JAA ATPL books and burn the midnight oil!!:zzz:

Don't let them get to you.........the JAA I mean!!

M.

And just to add..... THE MEANINGLESS OBSTACLES????

Have you tried getting a flight training visa for the US lately?

If you shouldnt have to do the exams why should we all not get FAA licenses and convert wouldnt that be easier? yes !and it would lower the standard here .
and you said you would encourage retaliation! it sounds like the exams might give you some needed common sense!
good luck

I am flying for a European carrier and only have US skippers all the time, and I know there are more of them on the other fleets, so it can´t be that difficult.

Most overseas pilots are flying on validations.

A friend of mine, an experienced Cpt., just converted his licence to JAA.
Yes you have to sit 14 exams for no reason and FAA might be easier on this.
The US just compensates that with immigration rules, let alone, work permits.

It´s a global economy, but no government has heard about that so far.

You have to sit useless exams. If you do that, you get your job and most probably a better salary than at home, so what´s your problem?
(all US pilots in Europe I know are here for the money, not the women, the food or anything else).

I also have plenty of US colleagues (in EZY) who can live and work in the EU just because their great uncle's father's cousin's sister was Irish/British and therefore they can claim an EU passport... :rolleyes:

Once again, where there's a will there's a way. Just like those Dutch guys sweeping floors in the FBO in the US, Americans can also chose to work/study hard for your JAA exams and get a job in the EU. So stop complaining and get on with it! :cool:

There is nothing discriminatory about the way Americans (non-JAA) pilots are treated. EU citizens have to put up with the same idiotic exams when converting an FAA license. Whether or not these exams are realistic is an entirely different topic.

"meaningless obstacles"

Thats what aviation has turned into in the last 20 years.
But unfortunately,I don't feel sorry for you because I(as a Dutchman) had to do the whole fr....king shaboom as well about 15 years ago.
So nothing has really changed has it?????

Still hope you get your job though;)

On the other hand I hope the Europeans start harrasing the US a little bit more back with finger prints before you enter the EU or sending all your credit card details and asking you a ton off silly questions on the flight down :{:{:{:{here:ugh::ugh::ugh:

Mackey
 

Mackey you are right on...yes you are correct. The point to my whole post its ludicrous and an insult to our profession as pilots and airmen. This does NOT promote any more safety..but just an additional hurdle that we don't need on either side of the Atlantic.

Rotorkinight
 

Rotorknight I I feel for you....bu I am fine where I am at. My point to the whole thing was sort of....Europe is missing out on fine pilots that would have been an asset ......:D:D

On the other side of the coin, FAA licence holders might be able to convert to JAA licences more easily if the FAA examination process was a bit more rigorous.

A bizjet friend of mine recently did his FAA theory exams - he said he just bought a CD containing all 700 FAA multiple choice questions, it took just four hours to learn off by heart all the answers, then he took the exam, and passed. He said that as far as he was concerned the FAA licence was worthless as it was so easy to pass the exams.

The JAA exams do not allow you to do this - you actually have to study and understand the material, not just blindly learn by heart the answers to the exam questions.

We can always try to unite:E:E:E and see if the JAA\FAA can finally come up with a world license.
Wouldn't that be great;)

YES
 

I know Europeans have to deal with the same IDIOTIC system........but what is the purpose......don't be upset with me I am just the messenger.The European JAA system is a joke....just seems everyone is content with it and accept it as the rule. I don' think its many Europeans with work permits in the US sweeping hangar's this days even with the down turn in the airline industry...they maybe don't get rich but they have a job.....:ok::ok::ok:

Rotorknight
 

Rotorknight applause to you...yes of course we all are a brotherhood as pilots......:D:D:D an international worldwide recognition would be utopia!.

Check Airman
 

Check Airman,

Well no interest on my behalf...you can keep your utopia there and think by keeping the bar so high where you make it very unaccommodating for prospering pilots to even pass and become a pilot that the notion you have achieved anything from that else that creating a HOSTILE environment for an elitist club like you think you are part of. This is SILLY and does NOT create a more safe airline industry or aviation community than the USA.

standardisation...?
 

Standardisation is needed in this case where a system has to be implemented in an mixed enviroment where are different languages, cultures and aviation backgrounds, among other things.

Maybe you want to complaint about the High Standards?, it could be high for you, low for others, the important thing is to bring everything up to a level.
Leave the FAA for US and the JAA for the EU, buy fish in the fishmarket and bread in the bakery.... not the other way around...
Will and englishman complain about everybody is driving wrong way on the Highway in the US ? or will he adapt himself to the local system and drive on the RHS of the road?... same thing here... adapt to the local legislation, cultures and system... otherwise you will be swimming against the current...

If your point is about the excess of information in the subjects? Could be (like knowing that the frequency of the Radio Altimeter is 4400Mhz... why???), but again, the more you know the better is for you and for you to interact inside the local system, the better is for you to be up (or above) to the standards...

The last point is... this post is not a rumour nor a news... post it somewhere else next time... jet blast maybe?

And please get your books and study, it is not that bad at the end... if you can fly a big jet, then knowing all the JAA subjects would be easier for you.

Farrell
 

Farrell, this was a low blow and nasty...The JAA tests are there to weed out psycho Yanks who think they can come over here with their Orville and Wilbur store card license (it's LICENCE!....oh no, but wait, you call it a certificate don't you. And here's me thinking that certificates came on sheets of paper. Oh well.)

To borrow one of yours.....Gimme a break, dude!:eek::eek::eek:

Argus
 

Airgus....you have valid points. Yes its not news just an observation from a guy that spent to much time on the other side of the pond..:ok:

Right, thats my standby finished.......anyone for a beer?

richatom
 

So you think this ACTUALLY makes it safer to fly in Europe than the US with the FAA system it sounds like you feel like a more difficult and HARDER system promotes better pilots. Please prove this by flight safety statistics....I think you will have a hard time doing this.

Beer
 

Mackey...I will have a beer with you anytime anywhere.....:ok::ok::D

Airgus
 

Yes Sir...but then again like my point is...its all aviation...we are all the same just separated by a bunch of bureaucratic BS.....;);)

As long as it's in a large glass and cold I dont care what the units are.......mmmmmmbeeeeer!!
M

Fork Handles
 

I have just analyzed the pros and cons of the whole JAA debacle.....but have decided maybe its not for me.....I rather fly and do the real thing, instead of burning the midnight oil and memorizing useless formulas and outdated information......I seriously believe it has NOTHING to make you safer or a better pilot than the FAA trained pilots, many here like to laugh at. It is just another USELESS obstacle milking you of your hard earned money and hardship.....we are all pilots and we all seek the same thing......fly airplanes. I think Europeans are all Outstanding aviators. It is unfair of many here to laugh at and make mockery of the FAA. They have after all certified many of you, and also the metal you strap your butts into everyday.

Its just a different mindset that goes into certification of airmen and the amount of hurdles you have to jump trough. Unfortunately my Euro brothers think hardship and lots of examinations makes VERY good pilots....unfortunately it is meaningless or in statistics comparing US to European aviation safety.

The bigger the better
 

Mackey The bigger the Better the Glass.....:ok:

Unless it has changed, the FAA would usually issue an restricted licence on the basis of a foreign pilots licence. However if you require an unrestricted pilots licence you were required to comply with the relevant experience and testing requirements. As far as the ground examination requirements are concerned this used to involve ( and perhaps still does) studying answers for 1000 published questions and paying your fee and sitting the exam.

In Europe most of the examinations are multiple choice these days and no doubt there are similar study materials. If the examinations are different or more difficult, or more expensive or even more expansive, then that is something you as a candidate will need to address. If it is the case that the US examinations are more difficult then the same will be true for reverse applicants. That is life and tough luck !

Different countries and different supranational authorities lay down their own standards in respect of licensing. If you want to convert from one to the other, you will need to comply as necessary, no matter how unfair or difficult you find the process.

This is not just true in respect of pilots licences, but even in relation to travel between the two trading blocks. If a pilot from Europe wishes to operate a flight into the United States, they will be required to set aside a few weeks to apply for the necessary visa. Pay the high cost of application, and then travel to their nations Capital city at not inconsiderable expense, to queue for most of the day to attend an interview. Then wait for the visa to be returned by post. This for the delight of often having to queue for hours each and every time they then need to use that visa to enter the USA. Citizens employed as crewmembers of that country, are not made to reciprocate. In most cases they need no visa, are quickly processed in to European nations with little fuss or hinderance. Maybe you should include that with your rant to your congressman ?


If you want to excercise your "dual citizenship" and work in Europe, then you will require the relevant licence. However difficult you might find that, others have achieved the relevant standard. If you think you are good enough then you should have little difficulty. If you think a dispensation should be made for you, then make the necessary application to the appropriate authority. However your congressman (if he isn't in court on some public decency violation charge this week,) is probably unlikely to be of much help in this regard.

Being a European, from my point of view there's not much sense in this regulation of having to sit in on 14 tests, since the questions in the JAR database focus on phenomenons that are in general the same worldwide, so why would it have to be the main factor to determine whether you are eligible to fly in Europe.

One of the most significant aspects between the continents is the attitude to creating rules, that are far stricter in the EU, which is understandable due to the traffic/land ratio. That's why I think maybe a few flights on the jump seat would in the end be more valuable than taking the theoretical tests.

That's just my opinion
;)

No reason for the hardfeelings towards european, most of us had to go thru all these exams. To let it out on the forum will not solve your problems. "If you can not beat them, join them". In my time I had a US licence, and guess what I had to do it all over again in europe...So what's the problem. Get your nose in those books...

747driver, i agree with you(I have FAA/JAA). all these license conversion are joke. it is just about $$$$, how much money they can get from you. it has nothing to do with safety. it 's all politic, job protection,...

if everybody run to USA to lean to fly , then get a JAR license automatically , EU schools will close for sure, flight instructor will be without job,...you have to pay for your license here...that s all.
when u spend money, u give jobs...we dont care if u are good or not, all we want in this system is your money, so people here in europe can keep their job.
expect to pay 40'000$ for your JAA license.

747jetdriver,I think you are taking it a bit personally! The whole system is a hoop jumping exercise which you need to do to fly in europe. The exams seem to prepare you for single pilot transpolar public transport ops (Gridnav anyone) navigating by loran and decca. How much do I use on a daily basis? 5-10% maybe. Still if you do get your in the books and pass it will prepare you well for any interveiw and there is always the satisfaction of knowing you have passed! :E
All the best:8