BE hiring in from abroad?
 

There is a nasty rumour doing the rounds to the effect that British European have hired a bunch of Aussie pilots,and paid for their licence conversion. Since there are significant numbers of British pilots out of work at the moment and BALPA are very quiet on the matter,would anyone care to comment?

I and about 150 other 146 type rated and experience pilots would be slightly put out. All of us are available immeadiatly!!!!!

Quite a few ex-Gill people would have their noses put out of joint, as well! I have tried to contact BALPA this afternoon to ask about it, but their office seems to shut after gentlemen's hours...

Anyone from BE around who can shed some light? Where's Raw Data when you want him?

Thanks, BIK - are you saying that they have NOT taken on any Australians? And what does it cost to rate someone on a Dash8 as opposed to converting a foreign licence?

[ 07 January 2002: Message edited by: HugMonster ]</p>

BIK, if these are not 146 or Dash 8 positions,
do you know what aircraft type they are on then?
<img src="cool.gif" border="0">

I have no idea why Hugmonster feels that ex-Gill employees should have first dibs on any jobs at BE.

Also, anyone who knows anything about contract work will know that it is considerable cheaper to take contract pilots than it is to type-rate new crews for a short-term requirement.

These positions are on the CRJ, and are temporary- as many will know, the intention is to dispose of the CRJ fleet. This may well change, as there are new opportunities appearing for the fleet, but at the moment any new pilots hired onto the CRJ fleet would face redundancy within a year or two (or less).

My understanding is that most, if not all, of those hired are ex-Kendall (ie Aussies), but that isn't definitive.

As others have said, anybody meeting the requirements, and being able to use a telephone, can apply- Gill crews included!!! <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">

While I can understand BE's reasons for taking on these CRJ guys. I'm afraid it's just another example of what a 'soft touch' we are in this Country.
Had the situation been reversed there's no way we would get jobs over in Australia. Anybody who was lucky enough to get a job would probably be subject to so much abuse from the Aussies that a life on the dole in the UK would seem preferable !!

MOR, I did not say that ex-Gill people should have first "dibs" as you put it.

I feel, however, that any out-of-work Brit pilot should be considered before an Australian.

As you are probably aware, there are many pilots currently looking for work in this country. Some are ex-Gill. I merely mentioned Gill because that was my previous company, I keep in touch with my colleagues who are still trying to find work, I feel a lot of allegiance towards a good bunch of people and that is therefore where my loyalties still lie. I did not seek to imply that Gill people deserve jobs before anyone laid off by any other UK airline.

You miss the point, BIK.

Many Aussies have EU citizenship, it is eminently possible that those contracted could be Aussies with EU passports (in fact I am told that that is exactly the case).

Sadly for hugmonster, the law sees an Aussie with a EU passport as a national of that EU country as well. Thus it is highly likely that some "Australians" (in effect, "Brits") might get jobs ahead of some "Brits". Don't blame me, that's the law! :) :)

Many Aussies have EU citizenship.....
never heard of Swiss Aussies or Germans Aussies or French Aussies ?!?!?

Geez BIK why don't you try reading what is written!!

I have absolutely no problem with anybody from any country working anywhere. Aviation is global, I have worked in many countries and continue to work in the UK (not my native country as it happens). I have NO PROBLEM with Aussies working here, which you would know if you bothered to read before jumping to conclusions!!!

It is Hugmonster who is suffering from xenophobia, not me.

[For those of you who are confused, BIK has removed the post that accused me of being xenophobic]

[ 08 January 2002: Message edited by: MOR ]</p>

HUGMONSTER
any y'all the same Brits/Aussies???
Y'all pretty much have the same flag
so if those pilots had the ratings and were able
to live in the UK and it had been advertised for so long then too bad.
Really if there are THAT many pilots unemployed in the UK and they aren't checking their web sites etc....then they deserve a good kick up the backside....
But there aren't really any websites that y'all can subscribe to are there....
Take a leaf out of the yanks book and create a site that looks after Brits looking for jobs as pilots...then someone can hold your hand and tell y'all where/when the jobs are available.....
reminds me of that old joke....
Did ya hear about the old Brit pilot who retired and died????
Yeah his wife found him 2days later she didn't realise that she had to feed and water him every 2hrs....
perhaps you should add "and check the pilot job ads too" :) :) :) <img src="tongue.gif" border="0">

3000 PSI - it is quite feasible to have dual citizenship; here in NZ I can apply for NZ citizenship after three years on a full residence visa - the same (or similar) applies in Oz. Much of the Ozzie population can trace their roots to UK, Ireland, Greece, Italy, etc (ever seen their football team, not many aborigines in there!)

As a Dutchy, I thought you would be aware that about 1/4 of Kiwi's can trace their roots to Holland, and no doubt be able to get a Dutch EU passport and citizenship.

Point taken ! Anti-skid ...
Geez MOR are you paranoid or what....Hugmonster a xenophobe !!! that's a good one, we use to fly for the same outfit God knows how many "foreigners "we were in the good old days, MOR , just hope you'll never have to apply for a job in OZ.

The Oz immigration laws are no more stringent than the British ones. If you have the passport, you can work there, just like the UK.

I'm about the least paranoid person posting here, as it happens... I don't care where you come from, as far as I am concerned you should be able to work anywhere you like. Hugmonster wants to keep Aussies out whilst there are Brits unemployed, irrespective of suitability ar qualification for the job.

Xenophobia is defined in the Oxford Dictionary as "a deep dislike of foreigners", so I guess you have to make that judgement for yourself. I've already made mine.

Hiya 3kpsi! Good to see you around, you darned foreigner you! :)

I am very far from being a xenophobe. Being largely non-Brit myself, it would be a tad foolish.

I heard the rumour that Thudd posted a few days before it made it here. It concerned me. It would have concerned me less had it been made clear that only EU citizens were being recruited, even on a temporary basis. There is, at least theoretically, a level playing field across the EU. That Ozzies were apparently being taken on raised my hackles. No, I have nothing against them personally. But were I to go to Oz, I rather doubt I would be eligible for employment there.

This issue has been raised time and time again. All I personally want to see is people playing the game by the rules. If I'm not eligible for a job in this, that or the other country, I don't see why their nationals should be permitted jobs here when there are Brit pilots out of a job.

Furthermore, I expect the Government (who presumably know the rules) to refuse work visas in such cases. If they are in any doubt about the availability of the home-grown product, then they should not necessarily take an airline's word for it, and can always consult BALPA, who didn't seem to know anything about this case until a former colleague of mine pointed it out to them.

That these posts appeared on the Parc website does not excuse offering the jobs abroad. I regularly trawl the various jobs websites, as do many people I know, but it is possible to miss them. Did they appear in, for example, "Flight"? I think not.

If the jobs are only for 6 months, and there are no CRJ-rated pilots available within the EU, then fair enough. Give them 6-month non-renewable visas. Thereafter I would hope that Brit pilots would be employed.

PS snooze, are you a pilot? If so I hope I don't have to fly with you, since (a) you don't appear to be very au fait with the state of immigration and work laws (b) more importantly, you make incorrect snap judgements on very limited information instead of trying to find out more. Go check your "Human Factors" book.

[ 08 January 2002: Message edited by: HugMonster ]</p>

Yes, Huggie, I'm a training captain on a nice big jet.

You still manage to miss the point, which is very simply that any Aussies coming here to work will have the right to live and work in the EU. If you went to Oz and had the same rights in their country, you would be able to do exactly the same.

You need to discriminate between an Australian with no such rights (who CANNOT work in the EU), and an Australian with dual citizenship who has exactly the same rights as any other EU citizen when it comes to employment. Same goes for your South African mates.

Not knowing about these vacancies is a poor excuse. Parc advertise every week in Flight, and include their web address. You don't miss things if you look carefully. I would have thought that being unemployed would concentrate your mind somewhat.

Not sure what a knowlwdge of immigration law has to do with aviation, and the fact that you equate one with the other reveals a lot about you.

I'm glad I'll never have to fly with you, as a)you seem to know a lot less about immigration law than I do (whatever that has to do with flying), and b) you too have made snap judgements without bothering to get all the info, as your first post so clearly shows.

Snooze:-<ol type="1">[*]Anybody coming here with the right to work is one thing. Someone coming here for whom the right to work is arranged on the say-so of an airline is another. If somebody already has the right to work here that is fair enough.[*]What South African mates? I wasn't aware that I have any. Are you making assumptions again?[*]Not being aware of a vacancy can be an excellent excuse. It depends how widely, and for how long a vacancy was advertised. If it was advertised for two days in the bottom drawer of a locked filing cabinet in a basement toilet with a sign on the door saying "Beware of the Leopard", I don't think people could be held responsible for not noticing.[*]As commander of an aircraft, you can be held responsible for any illegal immigrants on board your aircraft. Surprised you weren't aware of this. It therefore behoves you to have some knowledge of immigration rules.[*]What makes you think I "dislike" foreigners? Just your assumptions. Not a good idea to work on assumptions. Did your first PPL instructors never tell you that?[*]My first post merely asked questions - if you think this demonstrates assumptions, I think you need to get either your eyes tested, or work out the simple meanings of words. You're an aircraft commander? And a training captain? God help us.[/list=a]

The Kendell pilots that have gone to BE have either the right of abode in the UK or a UK passport. All are type rated and current CRJ pilots. The contract is for 6 months. What happens after that I do not know.

BTW, emigrating to Australia isn't as hard as it used to be. Check out <a href="http://www.immi.gov.au" target="_blank">here</a> for more info.

Probably not worth the bother, but to answer the relevant points:

1) Nobody is being sponsored by the airline for immigration purposes. If you knew as much as you claim to, you would know that the practice of doing so is severely limited, and with the present situation is more or less unknown.

2) Irrelevant to the discussion.

3) "Hitchhikers Guide" reference notwithstanding, any unemployed pilot who is not constantly checking every available avenue for employment probably doesn't deserve a job. In the case of PARC, they are a high-profile agency and there is no excuse whatsoever for not knowing what they have on offer. They make it easy enough to find out, a telephone call will do it.

4) I am indeed aware of the legal position regarding illegal immigrants, it being the only piece of immigration law that pilots need to be aware of! Why you ASSUME I don't is quite beyond me.

5) Not relevant to the discussion.

6) Too much to expect that you might be able to avoid the temptation to get personal. Ah well. Good luck finding a job... you'll need it with such an attitude.

Huggy

You really aren't reading what everybody else is posting. Any Ozstralians working in the UK (or anywhere else in the EU) DO have the right to live and work here. They haven't been "sponsored" by their employers or had their visas "arranged" by a lax immigration department. They are just as legal as you!

If you wanted to get a job in OZ you are quite entitled to, if you are prepared to jump through the various immigration hoops, just as they have done.

Dragon - wrong. I am reading it, and understanding it. Perhaps, though, I am not explaining myself well enough. I fully accept that these particular pilots may have the right already to live and work in the UK, as many do. Furthermore, I have nothing against Australians.

What I am concerned about is whether the various hoops we have to jump through to work over there are the same as the hoops they have to go through to have the right to work here. Fair question?

Well having spent most of my career abroad and now in the uk i think the industry here needs more aussie and immigrant pilots to dilute the old boy net stangle hold on the industry. (as an example the non qualified airtours chap who got where he did before being found out as he put a certain military flying organisation on his resume. That must have automatically exempted him from a background check.)brit pilots are disadvantaged more by that than immigrants.
As for Balpa well nuf said

Hugmonster... believe me, the difference is chalk and cheese. Converting a UK or JAR ATPL to an Australian one is relatively simple and inexpensive. (a couple of exams + a IR renewal in any multi engine aircraft, + medical) From Australia to the UK is a different thing. Now, I don't know what validation these guys are on. However, either way, if they want to stay on beyond the 6 months I would say that they would have to do the 14 exams (minimum).
The usual 12 month validation that has been used in the past still meant that they had to do the UK exams, settle in a new country, learn new procedures and often a/c type. That ain't easy.

I am sure BE looked around for current CRJ pilots that they could employ quickly and for a 6 month contract.

Well said BIK!!

BTW Huggy - getting over here is cheaper to NZ - 3yrs on a residency visa and you can apply for citizenship, which because of the Trans Tasman agreement, means you can freely work in either NZ or Oz (so long as you don't want to claim benefits)

Perhaps you should have a look somewhere more opem minded than the UK (and I am British!) - the Euro springs to mind here....

Why do so many otherwise interesting threads descend into a personal slagging match ? If you were all in a bar having the same conversation you would be much more polite to each other. Just because we are all anonymous on Pprune, should not mean we forget our basic manners.

Right, putting the soap box away now...

The question I have about all this is: is it good for the UK's economy to employ people from abroad ? Not all of the money foreigners are paid will be recycled into the UK coffers. The UK will also have to spend more on paying dole to unemployed brits.

Anti Skid On, an individual only has to wait 2years to get aussie citizenship, so the Trans Tasman agreement would work in favour of the aussie citizen it seems!

[quote]it would be incorrect to suggest that the UK or EU immigration regulations are any less stringent than the Australian ones<hr></blockquote>I would hope this was the case - thank you for that. There have been several rumours in the past, however, of the rules being relaxed here (some would say over-relaxed). [quote]In particular, and with regard to this case, if you have Australian citizenship, and an Australian passport, then you are free to live and work in Australia without the need to obtain any visas. Just as if you have EU citizenship, and an EU passport, you are free to live and work in any EU country without the need to obtain any visas.<hr></blockquote>Isn't this just a tad obvious? Or, to put it another way, on what basis would an Australian be refused the right to work in Australia? [quote]If I understand you correctly, you seem to infer that because you might not meet the immigration requirements then there is an unfairness in the immigration regulations. I suggest that it would mean nothing more than that one particular individual (you) is not eligible.<hr></blockquote>OK - if you prefer, use any Brit as an example, versus any Ozmate coming over here.

Please don't get me wrong - I'm not opposed to freedom of movement, nor freedom of aircrew to work anywhere they please. But I have heard a lot to suggest that rules are not applied uniformly and evenly across several national boundaries, or, indeed, from one month to the next.

It appears that in the case that started this thread, there is no need for concern. So I wonder exactly what the debate is about, unless I have stirred up a hornet's nest among a lot of Ozmates? Not my intention. I've worked in a lot of areas of the world, and both abroad and here in the UK, I've worked with many nationalities, and all to the improvement of intercultural understanding. But if somebody from St. Helena wanted to work on Ascension Island and couldn't, whilst Ascension Islanders could work on St. Helena while St. Helenans (?) were unemployed, I think you'd agree this was slightly inequitable.

Huggy has a point here, which is, unfortunately, undeniable:
[quote]But I have heard a lot to suggest that rules are not applied uniformly and evenly across several national boundaries, or, indeed, from one month to the next.
<hr></blockquote>

A former colleague, French but with a UK licence, is having all sorts of problems trying to get a job in France although it is, to all intents and purposes, a European (JAR) licence.

We are all, to a greater or lesser extent, hoist by own petards; until it is is universally ( maybe that should be globally as I dont envisage many command vacancies in the Starship Enterprise) accepted that we, the aircrew are mobile and that our skill sets go beyond national boundaries, this problem will always exist.

There will always be the case where Mr X is married to a citizen of another country and is therefore entitled to ply his trade there ( my brother being one) but until some great reform comes along is it so unjust to expect any country to limit the number of foreign nationals working within its borders (EU excepted)?

In an ideal world we would all have freedom of movement and the facility to work anywhere; hellfire, we all share the same airspace and belong to the same elite club! It aint us......it's the politicians!

[ 09 January 2002: Message edited by: Vee2 ]</p>

I don't know, you take a few days without logging on and look what happens!!! :) :)

Hate to be boring, but here are the facts.

BE has a short term requirement for CRJ First Officers. This is because the eventual disposition of the fleet is as yet undecided, and it is quite possible that any full-time staff that were hired would be redundant within six months.

BE employed PARC to source the crews. The brief was to, if possible, find EU-domiciled and licenced pilots. Failing that, those with the right to live and work in the EU would be considered.

As no EU pilots came forward (two French pilots expressed interest but didn't continue with the process), those with the right to live and work in the EU (ie EU passport holders in this case) were considered.

The result is that several Australian pilots (all ex-Kendall) were contracted. Although some were Captains, all will be flying as First Officers. These pilots will be granted validations by the CAA.

The company did everything within its power to hire EU residents first, but it appears that there are few CRJ-rated EU folk looking for jobs at present.

It is obviously completely impractical to type-rate people for these jobs, by the time they were rated the contract would be half-over.

Concerning other points raised on this thread, I agree that anybody who is currently unemployed, and is not intimately acquainted with the opportunities available, doesn't deserve a job! These vacancies were advertised by a leading agency, who publish their website and telephone details every week in Flight. I can't think of a single valid reason to not be aware of them!

The nationality debate will never stop, suffice it to say that EU nations are the worst offenders when it comes to protectionism. Australia is a far easier proposition!

I think the penny might have finally dropped with Hugmonster, but if not, you really should listen to what everybody is telling you, old bean. They are right and you are, at best, uncertain of the facts. :) :) :)

Finally, I too believe that the aviation job marketplace should be completely international, with no protectionism permitted by any state. Market forces and all that!

Raw Data, I accepted that the facts were as stated some time ago. However, having taken people's word for it, I am now being accused of being too easily swayed. Earlier in the thread I was accused of being too adamant - seems you just can't win.

MOR took several attempts to name the aircraft type that was involved, and stated several times in several different ways that no Australians would be hired, all were EU citizens, and this now appears to be incorrect. BIK seems to think that I am confused over EU citizens needing visas, when any fool reading my post would see that I was (at the time) referring to Australians, and I have also (very helpfully, I thought) been told that Australians don't need passports or visas to work in Australia.

Is it me, or are some people just incapable of reading something straight and giving a straight answer?

Thanks for confirming all the correct details, RD.

[ 09 January 2002: Message edited by: HugMonster ]</p>

I don't think you are too easily swayed or too adamant- you just used an unfortunate phrase or two that, in true PPRuNe fashion, were seized upon and turned into a pointless argument.

Unfortunately, you have done it again in your latest post. MOR did none of the things you accuse him of, he got the facts right in his first post. You possibly mean BIK, who was quite correct w.r.t. the nationalities of the pilots concerned- but said it in a different way.

Similarly, it seems that snooze_ya_lose was the main protagonist in the immigration debate.

This may possibly be the crux of the matter, from an earlier post of yours:

[quote] I feel, however, that any out-of-work Brit pilot should be considered before an Australian. <hr></blockquote>

The point that most of your tormentors seem to be picking up on is that these particular Australians are also EU citizens (as many are), and therefore should really be considered equally with out-of-work Brits.

[quote] If I'm not eligible for a job in this, that or the other country, I don't see why their nationals should be permitted jobs here when there are Brit pilots out of a job. <hr></blockquote>

Same thing applies here, as these particular foreign nationals are also EU nationals, equal in law to your good self, and with as much right to a job here as you. That is the ONLY reason they can come here.

[quote] It would have concerned me less had it been made clear that only EU citizens were being recruited, even on a temporary basis. There is, at least theoretically, a level playing field across the EU. That Ozzies were apparently being taken on raised my hackles. <hr></blockquote>

And again... why should it raise you hackles, these "Ozzies" have the same citizenship and rights as you.

[quote] That these posts appeared on the Parc website does not excuse offering the jobs abroad. <hr></blockquote>

They aren't, they are selecting purely on qualification, one of which happens to be EU citizenship. You could therefore infer that the jobs are only actually on offer to EU nationals, don't you think?

Anyway, reading the quotes above, it is quite easy to see how people could assume you were xenophobic (to be extreme), or that you had a problem with Aussies. I say all the above for your interest, not to provoke another argument.

BTW, and off-topic I know, I hear a rumour that we (BE) have apparently taken a bunch of ex-Gill pilots onto the Dash 8 fleet.

Finally, may I just say the Gill cabin crew that we hired are absolutely excellent.

And what is the problem holding an EU passport? I remember wonderful flights on BE where the only "British" bit was...painted logo on the A/C :) :) :)

I shall retire from this rather pointless thread.

RD, your two last paras are correct. Can't remember which bases the pilots went to - NCL and BHD ring bells with me. And you got some of our best Cabin Crew/ They're all lovely people - say hi and please look after them!

According to the aussie immigration web site an Australian citizen cannot hold dual nationality. The aussies I know working in the UK have visas, not UK passports, if they have a UK passport then they are British first and Aussie second, as the UK allows dual citizenship, and the Aussie government does not.

Meeb,
I am afraid that you are incorrect here. The Australian Government has no problem with dual nationality. I hold an Australian passport and I was born in Sydney, Australia. I also hold a UK passport (Courtesy of my father) and it still says I was born in Sydney, although now I am also a British citizen.
What the Australian govt will not let you do is leave Australia on a "foreign" passport. If you do, you have then deemed to have forgone your Australian citizenship.

Thanks for that Redsnail, I was afraid someone would prove me wrong! I got my information from this: <a href="http://www.citizenship.gov.au/bill.htm" target="_blank">citizenship</a>
but there is obviously ways round the situation.

Just a point of clarification. This is from the link Meeb provided:

[quote] Until such time as the new legislation comes into effect, adult Australians will continue to lose their Australian Citizenship if they acquire the citizenship of another country. <hr></blockquote>

This applies if an Australian emigrates to, say, the USA and becomes an American citizen. It doesn't apply to those who have dual citizenship by descent, as these people have never "acquired" citizenship of another country, it is their right by birth or patriality.

Thanks for that RD, what you say makes sense.

Onya RD. Thanks.
Sorry Meeb, missed that point.

Huggy, unless I'm much mistaken you worked for JY albeit for a very short time. (correct me if I'm wrong..F27??) In this light I can't understand what all the fuss is about. You weren't thinking of re-applying were you?