Ok...Papa2and charlie, to be frank I had a bit or respect for what you were doing at the start of this thread. Now I just think you're a diiick. All this talk of doing this for the guys applying for BFS, in truth its about protecting your terms, no thing else.

Oooh you poor thing, wrapping it up in an aire of martyrdom. You have just shown your true colours and it disgusts me. And the pathetic threat that things are going to get worse if we take the job. well, we will see.

Grow up. And now I why the union has no backbone, if you have anything to do with it. You guys should have gone on strike to get your point across. And NO you wouldn't have been doing it for us, you would have being doing it to preserve the status quo in EI. You know that when you have a cheaper labour in the company, it reduces your own bargaining power at pay talks. You had the management in a position where you could have made a difference, but when it counted you didn't have the balls.

Well thank you for helping me make up my mind.

Great! another North /South divide, just what we need.:hmm:

BR.

Max Tanking,
Come what may, the aeroplanes are going to fly anyway. The issue is whether they fly with guys on the current T&C's or on reduced T&C's. While it is of course about protecting the current jobs, it's also about protecting future jobs. That's sensible, it preserves unity and everyones prospects improve.
I assure you that your wildly inaccurate anti-IALPA comments are just that. Obviously however this is not the forum to give updates. No doubt you will learn the full story at some point.

Max - yet again you assume this is about pay. For goodness sake OPEN YOUR EYES.

When you get your F/o position at BFS (it certainly won't be Capt - EI will close before that happens) what will you do when the Warsaw base starts:

War - BFS - LHR - BFS - War rotations on a daily bases. Or maybe
War - BFS - BHX - BFS - War

Management claim that they are working for pittance a day and that there's now a glut of pilots in BFS - I mean they've just taken lots of flights from your base by stealth. If you WANT to resign and apply for the new Warsaw contract you'll be free to do so...but that will also mean you need to give up your (already paltry) pension and X days of leave, work under JAR ops conditions only, no seniority (oh wait you never had any) and sleep at the airport in case they need you.

Who are you going to call?
What are you going to do?
Who's going to help you?
You're all practically contractors - no-one will stick together. You'll knife each other in the back...again.

You'll be frustrated at the Warsaw guys for undercutting you, only this time comments like "And NO you wouldn't have been doing it for us, you would have being doing it to preserve the status quo in EI." will start to ring hollow. You remember an old base call Dublin that warned about these things, but you just saw money and took it. The other things didn't seem important at the time.

The Warsaw guys will claim that they're only doing it cos the missus is giving them grief about wanting to get home to the motherland....and YOU will find this frustrating. Oh and that even getting 1/10 of the working conditions that you had is better than what they had previously so why shouldn't they take it?

The solution?

If you truly think of IALPA :
"And now I why the union has no backbone, if you have anything to do with it. You guys should have gone on strike to get your point across."

You are so off the mark as to be funny. In 2-3 weeks, I shall quote these words back to you. Please be man enough to prepare to apologise, as we (IALPA) face very difficult times in the next few weeks for our members - including the BFS pilots who we wish to see join us, on our seniority list and on our working conditions.

Did you hear of the IALPA strike in 2002?
Do you believe we called of the strike in 2007 due to lack of balls?
Do you believe IALPA is a weak union?

Please take a look at history before you throw off the cuff remarks about IALPA. (google !)

I don't expect you to care, but I do expect you to get some facts straight.

As for :

"And the pathetic threat that things are going to get worse if we take the job. well, we will see. "

There was no threat intended there. That was a poorly constructed sentence on my part. It should have been something like : If the only problem you have is pestering from your wife - be prepared for management dumping a hell of a lot more on you if these working conditions get imposed on BFS pilots. You'll have no protection to prevent it.

It's time to stick together.

Then we're family.

Mannion is rumoured to have given the biggest two fingers to the pilots union today with their proposals....I think its gloves off time.

From a Southern Irish Newspaper
 

AIRLINE travellers may face more holiday misery as the fragile negotiations between Aer Lingus and its pilots have hit a major stumbling block, after the airline rejected the pilots' latest set of proposals.
Aer Lingus and its pilots have been involved in stilted negotiations since late August, when pilots suspended plans for a two-day strike.
That strike notice was prompted by pilots' opposition to the terms on offer for pilots at a new Aer Lingus base in Belfast, and unions have used the negotiations to push for major changes to those Belfast offers.
Resolution looked close on Tuesday, when pilots' union Ialpa sent Aer Lingus management proposals for employment at the Belfast base.
But Aer Lingus chief executive Dermot Mannion yesterday wrote to pilots and dismissed those proposals in their entirety, branding them unworkable and too costly and noting that they presented "no basis for resolution".
The development could have serious implications for the travelling public, as the pilots' strike notice remains in place, which means Aer Lingus' fleet can be grounded at just a week's notice.
Ialpa boss Evan Cullen said he could not comment on the union's next move until he had spoken to Ialpa's governing committee, many of whom are travelling this weekend. Mr Cullen added that a formal response would "probably come on Monday or Tuesday".
The difference between Aer Lingus and Ialpa centre on the terms pilots will work under.
Aer Lingus plans to employ pilots under terms and conditions that are more flexible than those in Dublin, while Ialpa's plans include giving Dublin pilots some special allowances for working in Belfast, and giving Belfast pilots similar terms and conditions to their colleagues in Dublin.
"What Ialpa proposed is an arrangement whereby not only are existing restrictive practices applied to Belfast operations but new ones are developed to supplement them," said Mr Mannion.
Unpalatable
A proposal about Aer Lingus paying some hotel expenses for Dublin pilots that travelled to Belfast is understood to have been particularly unpalatable.
Aer Lingus wants to recruit pilots on the open market, while Ialpa's proposals would see all captain slots filled from the Dublin ranks.
"The Ialpa proposals are designed to circumvent employment law in Northern Ireland, maximise Ialpa's ability to interfere with business decisions and ensure Belfast operations are restricted in terms of productivity, cost-effectiveness and flexibility," said Mr Mannion.
"Ialpa are asking us not to create a base, but a contrived and convoluted operation, whereby protection for current pilots is measured in terms of the inefficiency of the Belfast operation," he added.
Mr Mannion finished his letter by saying he would welcome a meeting with Ialpa, if there was a "genuine willingness from Ialpa to resolve these matters".

Looks like DM is panicking.

He's now realised his advisors (LW) weren't all they were cracked up to be.

Just how will he get himself out the corner he foolishly put himself in???

No Sheikh or Bangladeshi baggage handlers here Derm....:}

either panicking or throwing all his cards on the table......the latter says me.

M T this profession is being destroyed by your ilk.No principles, no standards of decency, merely self interest. Maybe with such sterling attributes you should be applying to ryr?

ok I've been checking this out for the last few days - you guys have put about £100k each into ei and now you want to do the company over for us guys who might be hired. Clearly you have money to burn. :ugh:

It's a concept generally referred to as 'seeing the bigger picture' - which it appears your myopia is preventing you from seeing.

The Bigger picture?
 

I see from the AL website that the deadline for applications for Pilots & Cabincrew for the BFS base was the 28th September. Previously it was August, this has been extended a month.

Perhaps the message is getting through and guys are observing the IALPA ban?

BR.

I think that pilots should respect the IALPA recruitment ban. This BFS base is a clear attempt to bring Aer Lingus pilots under much reduced terms and conditions and it really is the 'thin end of the wedge' as they say for the Dublin based ones. This has all been handled in a very rushed manner. Mr Mannion needs to sit down and work with IALPA or no doubt he'll be faced with a very tricky situation before long...

Come on alisha - start joining the dots.

I see that the BFS Pilots and Cabin Crew positions are no longer advertised on the AL website. The Engineer positions still remain.

BR.

how many pilots do they need, and how many planes will be based in belfast?
they have probably received thousand of CV.

Has anyone who applied heard anything yet?

They have been interviewing Captains from the shortlist already. F/Os to be called shortly I understand.

3 aircraft in total, first starts services 10/12/07, second on 14/01/08 and third on 25/02/08.

By my reckoning that's about 40-50 new pilots for the base by Feb '08?

direct entry captains into aer lingus interests.....from what i know the command process is a tough work out for the current guys. Humour me....are the new capts , just going to do a line check and thats it? it's a joke having parallel standards. Good old ryanair have the same yard stick for all.

seems like we can get on with it while captain kremin leads the lunatics over the edge of the cliff. did I join up the dots P2C or am I just a dumb chick

alisha - I wouldn't dare comment on your mental aptitude. I'll leave the posts you have previously written in this thread for others to decide themselves.

One thing strikes me (oh excuse me, freudian slip) though, it appears you're already salivating at the thought of getting a job in BFS once Manion has had his dirty way with us. How short sighted.

Lets take away the fact I think you are an imbecile for not understanding why the pilots were/are taking this course of action - when you get your job, and Manion comes next year looking for, say, 5 days annual leave from you - what's your plan going to be?

Do you think we'll care on this forum? Do you IALPA/BALPA/Union will want to know? Do you think your colleagues will help? What if he threats not to pay you for 6 weeks, until you give up the 5 days?

What if he employs some skivvy from "insert non-racial but looked down upon pilot country" to come to Belfast and do your flights while you "consider" his new contracts?

Oh but of course - it would never happen to ME! I mean I'll just do my work, keep the head down, say nothing, maybe look for my command in a couple of years. I mean, it's more than I'm getting paid at McDonalds, screw those other losers already there, they don't know they have it made.


Stupid pension - I'll be dead of radiation before I'll need that. What with my 900 (or more) hrs a year til I'm 65 I'll be glowing brighter than the maglite in my case!

Leave days? When the hell will I have time for that, got to make sure my name doesn't appear at the bottom of any annual flight hours league and draw attention to myself. Actually maybe I'll just ring crew control and see if there's any gaps for tomorrow...can never be too sure.

Pay? Phssst! No idea what my pay freeze is at a at the moment. I'm never at home, haven't seen the outside of an airplane for 3 months. Well, until next Tuesday that is, when I have to go to the hospital for surgery.....to have an A320 professionally removed from my ass.

Where does it stop?

Would you take my grave so quick?


PS. Good luck with the interview.

a dumb chick.

Outside of Ireland anynight stops?

And will schdueleing be kind if I live in Bilbao?

1. Is the recruitment ban still in place?
2. How long do you think it will be untill all in AL a happy and stable organistion again?
3. How long is a piece of string? (Quantum Physic answer for this this one please) :}

alisha - An honest question: have you actually worked for an airline before ?????

Hi FO Jimmie James,
1. Is the recruitment ban still in place?
In reply just heard on RTE news today a statement from Impact Trade Union (IALPA) that Aer Lingus had suspended one pilot for refusing to train Belfast crews.
Willby

F/o Jimmie James

1) CHeck out http://www.ialpa.net/main.html
2) When Mannion and co have gone and a proper management team are put in place.
3) Twice the length from the middle.

RTÉ 9 O'Clock news reports 4 suspended

======================================================
Aer Lingus has begun suspending pilots refusing to train new recruits in a dispute over pay and conditions for the airline's planned new hub at Belfast.

Members of the Aer Lingus pilots' union Impact have said they will resign en masse from training duties.

It follows the suspension of four of their colleagues for refusing to train new recruits who will be employed on lower pay and pensions.

Almost 40 senior pilots have begun resigning from training duties.

By doing so they are seeking to avoid the risk of suspension for refusal to train new recruits.

The Irish Airline Pilots' Association (Ialpa) which is part of Impact wants to negotiate over terms and conditions to apply in Belfast.

However, the airline has said negotiations are over and it wants to set up its new hub north of the border employing staff on conditions "with reference to local market conditions".

Four Ialpa members have been suspended so far for refusing to take part in the training of new recruits, in line with union policy to black co-operation with management's Belfast preparations until agreement is reached.

While there was speculation that a suspension might trigger a strike - for which the union already has virtual unanimous approval from its membership - the pilots' move to formally withdraw from training is a surprise one, seeking to outfox management.

An Impact spokesman told the BBC that training was an optional extra duty beyond pilots' core flying duties, which they elected to make themselves available for and for which they received separate pay.

Resignation threat

However, the union claims that an in-house training capability was also a regulatory requirement of Irish aviation authorities, and that loss of this through mass resignations would hit the airline hard as it gears up for its new Belfast operation, while immunising pilots from disciplinary action.

The airline, which refused to comment on Tuesday, however, is expected to be examining if the pilots' withdrawal from training duties could spark any further disciplinary sanction by management.

The union has said it wants to solve the dispute without industrial action, and to negotiate, a path also urged by Taoiseach Bertie Ahern.

"Our line remains the same - we want to discuss it, we want to negotiate, we want to resolve the problem," an Impact spokesman said.
Belfast International Airport
Aer Lingus is setting up a hub at Belfast International

Privately, union members are likely to be very reluctant to strike, conscious that staff shareholdings acquired in last year's privatisation of Ireland's former national airline will be damaged if its overall financial health is affected by a dispute which could weaken the share price.

This may be why Aer Lingus management appears to be playing tough, confronting the pilots last week and also telling other staff it will not honour a pay award supposed to be paid as part of an Irish government-brokered national pay deal, unless staff accept the airline's cost reduction proposals.

A showdown may be part of Chief Executive Dermot Mannion's plans to streamline the airline, and develop a new post-privatisation culture in the face of stiff competition from bitter rival and substantial shareholder Ryanair.

The airline also faces stiff competition from rivals including Ryanair on almost all its UK and European routes, and British Midland on its routes across the Irish Sea.

With the new Belfast hub due to open in early December, the latest surprise move by pilots places more pressure on management to resolve the increasingly bitter dispute, and meet its deadline for take-off from Belfast.

Any uncertainty or postponement of the start of services from Belfast would represent a public relations disaster for the airline, already taking bookings for its advertised services to London Heathrow and European destinations from Aldergrove.

The stakes for the pilots are high too however, fearful that staff on lower pay and pensions at a base only 110 miles just up the road from Dublin could eventually reduce their own conditions, which are considerably better than those enjoyed by staff in rival Ryanair.

Thanks Papa2 and Charlie and Wilby.

No one can tell me that this will be a boring Airline to work for! :E

Viva better conditions for all Pilots. All the best to the suspended pilots . . . True honour displayed! :ok:

What's the current situation in Belfast now with EI now that operations have started...........

Any gossip from the insiders?

An ex Colleague of mine who started on 10th of December says that,

"the whole operation is a shambles and very sloppy."

Her words and not mine.

BR.

They appear to be operating quite a few of the same routes as Easy - apart from the LHR, should be interesting to see what happens there:E

the load factor are are so low on the AMS sector it's a joke. LHR - SNN dropped this weekend with good loads. BFS on LHR will be interesting. I think they made a dogs arse of it...time will tell.

Hi!
Is there still the recruitment ban? I could not find any information about it.
Or did they sort it out in the meantime? Are the fired trainers re-employed??
Would there be any RE F/O for the A330fleet?

It will be interesting how much money per day! EI will be loosing at the moment out of BFS? Will the shareholders allow this to continue particularily with a global slowdown to contend with?

Some news is creeping out now about BFS. First, all current DE pilots have signed up to a contract without having all the information about their future situation. I know that at least two pilots have declined to sign up because there was no clarity available about important questions. These two were not prepared to accept promises that things would be sorted out later (one was told that the answer to a question he asked was "confidential" and he could only be told once he checked out and after arrived in BFS to start work). Also there are strong rumours that existing EI pilots have all declined BFS contracts due to the lack of clarity about conditions. Apparently EI have announced to at least one pilot that there will be no formal working conditions at the begining.

Some of the new DE pilots also seem to have picked up the idea that they will receive the same allowances, productivity pay, etc. as existing EI pilots, only to discover afterwards that this is not correct. Others refer to things they were told at interview which are different from the agreement for the BFS base. I suspect that all of this means is that there is going to be fun and games at BFS for months to come.

Easy answer...... Minnion will be stitched up by Cornellius and the Wicked Witch!