TIME TO STOP PAYING
 

The predicted pilot shortage now seems to be nearer reality than at any time for a good few years.Do we think that as a profession we should refuse to apply to join airlines who insist on training costs being paid by the new recruits up front.Is it time to accept bonding as the only acceptable contribution of candidate towards type rating or training.Surely acting together at a time of demand rather than surplus would address this unacceptable situation which has continued far too long.

bermuda,

A nice thought but with one serious flaw. There is no "we". Pilots are not some happy band of brothers, not all members of some secretive sect, not members of one single association. We are individuals who make individual choices based on our own positions and circumstances.

The problem with anyone turning down a job they would otherwise take is that they know it is not "we" turning it down, it is just "me", and there is someone else in line who will probably grab it with open arms.

Collective barganing only works when you have a collective.

Thats true,but trying to achieve a concensus can't be a bad idea.

If there is a pilot shortage and you are seeking work, chances are you'll find more than one offer. Take the one where you don't have to pay for your type rating - and tell the others why you turned them down.
The message will eventually get though.

If you only have one job offer, you're new, or desperate - take it and pay up.
Thats how the world works.

You'll Never beat the Rich Kids.:}

"Is it time to accept bonding as the only acceptable contribution of candidate towards type rating or training.":{

Funny thing that statement. Not to many years ago I remember us b1tching about training bonds on PPRUNE when they where the norm and we all felt that surely if the company needs you, it must have training built into it's cost base and the way to stop someone else poaching your recently trained pilots was to have great T&C's and trust me it is not all about money.

Don't get me wrong ,bonding is better than paying but still not correct
If that is the way our collective viewpoint has been changed then the beancounters are slowly winning and our profession is doomed.

Do these self same beancounters have to pay or sign a bond to complete there articles to become a CA, I think not. They may work on reduced wages until fully qulified but they don't pay or sign a bond that needs repaying (another way of paying for your rating) if they leave before a certain time.:bored:

Pilot shortage
 

Ther is no pilots shortage yet because the salary and working conditions did not improve YET
SIA, Emirates,Vietnam Airlines, as well as many other Airlines are not offering a better package even if thry are looking for pilots

I would aslo have to ask, is there a pilot shortage? I don't see the requirements dropping much in the past year. Still the minimum is 500 hrs ore more on the type. So the only way to get is to spend 25000 euro for a type-rating and the another 25000 to by the flight time somewhere... =(

The shortage refers to experienced and type-rated pilots.

Ask Ryanair. They are now trawling back through applicants who turned them down or were turned down six months ago. Similar applies to BA etc.

Make sure you're sitting where you want to be when the music stops.

Well said silverhawk,

Indeed I only see a shortage of Captains, or TYPE rated pilots and hours on type. There are plenty of pilots in the market place, but they lack the rating and hours on type.

As mentioned earlier, you cant beat the rich kids, but there are companies out there willing to bond you. BA Connect and Flybe etc.

Chin up and keep going

Mr W

So if a pilot comes with lets say an A320 rating but without hours is he/she more attractive than one without?

Founder, to answer your question: The type rating is useless without hours on type.
I have self funded my A320 rating and I have been seeking, sending my CV, calling Chief pilots all around the world for over a year. Their first question was: ''Are you type rated, then how many hours on type do you have?'' I said I have no hours on type but I am willing to work for free until I reach 500 hours, they replied: ''Please send us your application stating that you are willing to work for free''.
I have never been called for an interview, I suppose that the problem was not about the personality but only because they want experience on type. (Even if I also have experience as Flight dispatcher and Flight Attendant).
Finally I decided to pay my 500 hours on type, I have been waiting for few months before joining a line training. Then I have been employed by the airline. My partner during the rating has 4000 hrs TT with 1000 on turbine and his still looking for. He has the same problem: type rated and lots of hours but no experience on type, desparate, willing to pay another 30000$ to get those hours

:yuk: :yuk: :yuk:

And long may you remain unemployed my son!

Working for free!:( What has this world come to?:{

Thanx for the info, even if it's not the type I wanted to hear =) So how do you proceed with paying for line training? Do I just have to make a call to an airline and ask them if they'll train me for a amount of money or what?

I have been offered a full time position by the airline on the A320/321 before reaching 300 hours on type. I do not regret because the pay is great and I now have the job I wanted. Most of my friends are still instructors with 4 times my flight experience on a PA28 and their pay is 4 times less than mine.
I was not pleased to pay my line training, I had no choice. Once you start something and know your goal, you have to go to the end otherwise it's a waist of time, and time is money.
Yes working for free in order to get the experience is bad, but this is the situation nowdays, if you don't like it you're free to stay out of the game. I am just here to share my experience, it doesn't matter to me if you agree or not my decisions...

I value the information you share highly. I've talked to other pilots who are in the same situation. One guy I know got a job at RyanAir in the UK. He took a type-rating at sterling, bought 100 hours and got the job. And just like in your case, his friends are still instructors flying small planes...

Sarcasm?

wow, this thread amazes me! I knew people were desperate/crazy but this is just amazing. One thing all the people who pay for TR's must think about is the people on the bottome of the ladder flying TPs.

I fly a TP and have never paid for a TR. I got my first job with 235hrs and alot of persistence in a ground based job. I chose to start at the bottom and work my way up but what i didnt realise is how much of an affect a 250hr newbie is having when they pay for their own TR.

Look at it this way, I have 1000hr multi crew and now want to move onto a jet but I am one of those people who refuse to pay for a TR but all the people who are paying for TR's and working for free are killing it for the rest of us!Therefore i am now struggling to find a new step on the ladder.

Personally i'd be too ashamed to admit to paying for my TR!

Well I'm not. I need a job to be able to pay off all my loans I've taken to be able to work with the thing I love most. I need a job to survive and I'm not about to work for 5-10 years earning small amounts of money when I can pay for a type-rating and then get 3-4 times the amout of money.

I'm not about to take pitty on or suffer economically becuase of someone else who just for the cause refuses to pay for his/her TR.

Either you get a job and start flying while earning lots of money or you're stuck with loans you'll never be able to repay with a "normal" job.

I'm not ashamed!

Paid for type rating, had job second week of course,through hard work and networking.

Fly the 737 3/5 enjoying it so much and glad I did it. Well aware of risk involved, not a rich kid, I flew sep for two years saved every penny I earned.

I'll be reading these threads in two years time, probably word for word.

There are plenty of TP operators out there willing to give a new guy a chance so its not as if we are depriving you of any job.

Incidently my outfit Charge for the type rating regardless of experience if not type rated, majority of guys who paid before me direct to company( I self typed) were from other companies.

Happy with my choice and wish some of you would stop bitching about those of us who get what we want:(

SJM glad all worked out for you.....just bear in mind many of your fellow pilots ,who are already upto £70,000 out of pocket,might just not be able to afford the cost of a type rating.Nice if you can afford to keep shelling out,but is it really ethical for employers to expect pilots to fund all their flight training ?

Pay away !

How long will it be before you realize that the worsening terms and conditions you are likely to experience are because those coming up from below you are also happy to pay and fly for nothing. Who can blame employers who decide to follow this route since it will further slash their costs.

Your monetary worth to these employers is measured in what they have to pay to employ you. It shouldn't take them to long to realize that you are bargain basement material, and when you start to demand money, get rid of you and move on to the next person who will also work for free. Still you can always move on to the next employer who is presumably by then also wondering why he needs to pay you when people will work for free.

Terms and conditions for low experience F/O's are already falling to reflect the plentiful supply of low hour/ no experience wannabees. Those new reality T&C's are also spreading up through the scales.

Bit of a bleak outlook if you were hoping to make a good living out of this ?:confused:

Couldn't agree more :ok:

No it's not. But the reality is that there are a lot of pilots who are competing for a limited no of jobs. An I bet that most would do a lot to get ahead of the others...

I don't know how it is in the UK but in Sweden there is a government funded school for airline pilots where people can get their training for free. BUT only about 24 people every year get a chance to train there and the selection process is tough... this is also unfair, why should some get it for free and others don't.

But this is the world we live in, not everything is as it should...

But what can we pilots do to change the airlines minds about training...
Nothing...
The only thing that's going to make them start paying for training is a time when there aren't enough pilots compared to the no of flights needed to be done...

How do you sleep at night.

Working for free with an airline is death to the industry. Our pay is already being erroded away year on year and your making it worse.
You may have a job now, but it will come around to bite you in the future.

I wouldn't want you on my jet.

How could I trust someone with no respect for themselves.

:yuk:

I already have a TP job(which i didnt pay for). Now I want a jet job like all of us who are working our way up the ladder.The more the newbies pay for their type ratings the more they're blocking the more experienced people, who aren't willing to pay for their type ratings, from moving on.....


And not to mention the affect its having on T&C's!!:{

We all want the good T&C's but wont get them whilst we bugger ourselves rigid!:ooh:

http://tinyurl.com/gzsyh

:p :p :E :E :p :p

Founder & ACP,

So you guys pat yourselves on the back for finding yourselves in a A320 or B737 instead of learning how to fly properly doing instructing or general aviation work somwehere in the world.

I find your comments about those of who are flying GA jobs very condescending and rude. These guys and girls will be better pilots than you will ever be, will be able to look at themselves in a mirror with pride and don't deserve to be shafted by fools like you who are subsidising industry training costs and making the bean counters very happy.

Now you've landed this job and sitting fat dumb and happy. What's next on the 'pay for it yourself' agenda.. someone else comes along and works for free until command comes along and you get laid off to make way for this bean counters wet dream.

Get the picture?
Shags

First of all I never said that I would work for free. I stated that I would pay my own type-rating if it would give me a job. Tell me how I am to pay my rent and food and at the same time pay off my loans that I've taken to be able to fly with the salary of an instructor? I'd make more money working in the industry building cars or whatever...

Set yourself in the position of having about 70'000 Euros in loans because of studies and then take a job which payes you about 1000 euro's per month... get real!!!

It's easy for someone to have an opinion like yours if you're already flying as a professional pilot making lots of money...

Since there are so many here who complain about new pilots paying for a type-rating istead of "working their way up the ladder".

Perhaps all of you can tell us new guys how we're to be able to cope with the huge loans that we've got and at the same time work with SEP/MEP aircrafts not earning hardly any money at all...

And as well tell us where we might find a company who is flying SEP och MEP aircrafts today...(except flightschools)?

Make suggestions not accusations!

Founder,

A lot of people have had to do instructing on 1000 euros a month with debts to pay, living costs to meet etc etc. It was your decision to become a pilot and get 70,000 euros in debt which is regrettably the reality of getting a licence in the EU. That is your business and good luck to you and I honestly wish you do well.

But when you fall onto the hook and pay for your rating you start to affect others who are also in debt but are smart enough not to make it worse, and you help make T&C's worse for all.

Shags

The big problem for me is that I can't afford not to get a job that pays more. I have to admit that the reality for new pilots is a big cloud of unanswered questions.

The schools are doing everything they can to get you to start training and paying without really telling the new pilots the reality that awaits them when they are finished.

And here we stand, with huge loans and no chance to get an honest job, what do we do? There are more pilots finishing than there is a need for instructors.

If I were to become an instructor I would still have to spend at least 9000 euros on the intstructor training. It would take me over a year of flying just to get that money back.

To me, it's not worth it. I would love to, if I could afford it but I can't... so I do what I must... even though it might feel wrong, I admit that, but that's how the market for pilots is right now.

Perhaps if the increased no of flights continue like it has the past year and the airlines keep makeing more and more money in maybe 2-5 years they will be forced to pay for ratings in order to get pilots at all... But we're not there yet, unfortunately...

Founder,

Now I agree with you!!

Reading between the lines it's not economical to become a pilot any more. High cost of entry, reducing pay and conditions, increasing workloads etc. I suppose that explains why our career no longer appeals to many young Europeans looking at law or medicine instead.

Beer is expensive in Sweden.. can only make it worse.


Shags

It does make it worse :) Thank god for cheap Danish beer!

Best Regards
Tim

We all have debts from our school training..........so I don't see your logic of making that debt bigger by paying for a type rating.
If you didn't pay, the companies would have to pay and then you would be able to pay off your debts quicker.
Please stop degrading the industry...................and no I don't have a jet job. Can't get one cus you are willing to pay for it. If you didn't pay, then maybe we both could get a jet type rating for free.

Stop being shortsighted

Founder,

Ool tak!

Shags

This subject has been done to death but........as an example, I got my first jet job 14 months ago after flying Corporate TProp's, having previously instructed, flown skydivers, towed gliders etc.......and no £70000 debt...as I worked whilst I trained, all because I wasnt desperate to finish training and step straight into a jet.
You guys with massive debt..take a look in the mirror...its your own fault, how about some personal responsibility for a change?

£70,000 is a figure that seems to be the norm these days, I payed apx £48,000 type include.
Lost two jobs offers when sept 11 happened worked my arse of to get 1000hrs and watched 250hrs guys get jobs offers straight out of a flight school.
Amased 2500hrs total time only to be told by one TP company "not really interested , as you will leave as soon as you get 500 multi-crew"
They like young fresh pilots that cant move on for a few years, as someone stated earlier this topic has been done to death, its not simply about who has the most money, its about who has the strongest will to succeed.
£70000 for a licence vs £48000+type, well if you will believe the nice shinny adds by the big schools more fool you.
I dont believe it costs that much unless you go to the large schools. And before someone pipes up with crap like "they are the best schools" , well ":mad:" not true and those who choose a school and pay top money for training in the hope oxford or cabair on the CV will give them the edge are just as guilty as those who they accuse.

So a case of pot calling kettle black me thinks, incidentally many of my friends are capts in major airines and many of them are of the belief terms and conditions were way on there way down before this self-type approach started.

I wish everyone luck in thier job hunting and sincerely hope you all gain employment, just remember "life isnt fair" :ok:

I quite agree with the statement not to pay for type ratings the airlines should pay. however as a currently unemployed pilot, I have been offered a full time (full pay) job on A320, but i have to pay the type rating myself - line training etc paid for by airline so just basic ground school and sim to pay for upto final sim check. So do i tell them to stick there offer and carry on looking ? after 2 1/2 yrs with NO job despite CV's phone calls making nuisance of ones self ? I know what i want to do but be interesting to know what you all think when your in my position and get first offer .....

Speedtapeking

That's exactly the point. No pilot in the world agrees with paying for a type rating ... it's absurd! I'd go on hunger strike, march to 10 Downing St etc etc to protest with all of you but I too was offered the same as you have been and I was on a ticking time bomb with the bank and IR renewal looming etc. For the record I was in the holding pool for another 737 operator (but with no firm date of employment and others ahead of me in the queue) and had replies to my letters from every TP operator in the UK saying they had no vacancies. Small matter too is that I also have a house/mortgage. There I am, in room being offered a jet job. As for being a "rich kid" the bank was willing to loan me the extra to secure the job on the basis of further risking my house as security. Without doubt there is someone next in line wishing that I say no. For me I had no choice.

I don't like it, I don't agree with it but under the circumstances I also don't regret it. Instead of individuals making protests and suffering for it I believe it's high time the unions like BALPA get involved.

Since there's so much consencus on the subject I expect any moment the call from IFALPA for a general strike, initiated by the most senior/management pilots of most airlines in the world.
This jut to avoid the erosion of the industry, being polluted by these suckers bending over to get their rating!
Solidarity is the new fashion word!
Honestly I think this will not happen, so just observe this spiralling out of control.:{
I also would have preferred NOT to pay, but, you know, it was this or being (aviation) jobless for years.