BA: Is It Really That Bad???
 

Hi guys, me again!

on a threat called "Virgin vs. BA" here at pprune and some threats people don´t write very good about BA and even some guys want to go back to their old companys with a lot of cargo night flights for less money. It´s not just one who is writing that, so my question:"IS BRITISH AIRWAYS REALLY THAT BAD????? I know pprune is of course a rumour network, and the pilots mentality, i guess, is that they are always unsatisfied with something in the company. If it wouldn´t be like that, than we would have anything to talk about during a long flight (of course there are some other very important topics, u know what i mean).
I would like to have some statements from BA pilots here. What do u think as pilots of a major-global-player compared to others?
This would be very interesting for me and a lot of other newjoiners. I work right now for a good but small airline with very good T´s & C´s but the managment is changing it. New entrys earn 35% less, and it will be just a matter of time until the older contracts will be terminated. I have a longhauloffer at BA, and it is a very big and lifechanging decision for me to take it or not. I´ll have to commute from europa mainland etc etc etc and i´m not a british guy! I know some will say: We had that topic already somewhere similar, so just use the search function - I did it and I´m aware about the pension and the time to command etc. I just want to get an overall overview with collected (merged) statements from BA-pilots that also the others, who are in the same situation like me can use. Thanks to all!!!
PS: Would u join again?

No its not that bad. I think it's pretty good overall but then I'm on the 747 which is largely insulated from the worst parts of the operation. What I can say is it's certainly not getting any better, and may get measurably worse in the next year. Management on the whole is very, very poor which creates a vicious circle because nobody decent wants to be a manager and work with the rest of them. On the whole keep your head down, get a seperate mobile phone so you can't be drafted, don't let the other departments p*** you off no matter how much they provoke you and you can have a pretty good time. Just don't fly the Airbus unless you want to be really tired and make sure you go out for a beer downroute or people will think you're a bit strange.

Best Ts+Cs and overall money package in the UK.

Not the best pension now though.

In fact you will be lucky to get a pension since the pension fund is underfunded to the tune of 66% of what BA is reputed to be actually worth.

In that, they are a national leader!

It can't be as bad as any other s/haul out fit is it? like an easyjet or a midland?
If it is worse, how so?

Three letters. LHR. That makes your home base worse than pretty much anywhere Easy operate to, and you'll be there 50% of the time. That gives you plenty of opportunity to interact with the more militant/inept/understaffed departments such as cabin crew, ground staff, dispatchers, tug drivers, bus drivers etc etc. Add in utterly unrealistic schedules (35 min turnaorund for a full 319 with cleaning and recatering) and you'll soon realise you're on a hiding to nothing for the rest of the day and the only way to reduce the stress level is to say "f*** the schedule" and work at your own pace. Sad but true.

At least BA look after their 777 longrange pilots??!!

You will have seen the superb rest facilities on the Boeing LR aircraft that flew into LHR today. BA were going to put the same on their 777's about five years ago, to try and improve the standard of the pilots rest facility to somewhere approaching that of the cabin crew.

Remind me, did it happen?

And of course everything is just peachy in the LoCo world, charter world and Midland, who can barely get enough FO's to fly their programme.

The trouble with BA is that a lot of people don't know they are born because they've never worked for anyone else.

Even the ones who have soon get spoilt and turn into BALPA Forum moaners who make a conference of gay hairdressers seem unemotional.

If its so bad I don't know why these idiots stay, and don't say seniority, its a free world.

The pension, I would imagine. If that goes, BA are likely to be even shorter staffed of pilots than they are now.

I used to work for someone else, and even though I loved it, I am happy to be at BA. Would certainly not consider working for a loco now that I am where I am (unless I didn't have a choice). As far as longhaul goes, with the 767 picking up some of the East Coast routes, the 777 will have better rosters in 6 months to a years time I reckon. The Jumbo is the fleet to be on though I would say.

I fly the 767 and I love it - although I am on the newer side of things.

If you are aware of the pension and retirement age legislation possibilities and you have your eyes open, then I reckon BA may well be a good choice. It depends where you are now.

The atmosphere is good generally and when you are away from LHR it is as fun as you make it. At LHR things can go very well, but there are too many occasions of niggly annoying things. If you let it wash its OK, if you are prone to getting annoyed by it, then be aware!

Don't get out much do you NN? Obviously missed the fact that we have managers meeting aircraft on a daily basis to force draft people because we don't have enough FOs to fly the programme!:p

Rubbish - the pension that new joiners are on is Defined Contribution - there is no underfunding of the new scheme whatsoever, hence why NAPS is closed to new DB joiners and BAPS provides a DC pension. The DC scheme cannot be underfunded as it promises nothing other than the return on the investments - the risk is on you.

The DC pension is underfunded because if the contribution rate cannot possibly produce a reasonable fund to purchase a pension, it is by definition underfunded. A not unreasonable Captain's pension might be £25K with 20 years service. Say a £5K annuity costs £100K. The fund would therefore need to be £500K. The current funding will provide £300K, hence it is woefully underfunded. Cathay pay 15.5% of gross, Virgin pay 15% of basic. BA pay 12% of 75% of basic (9%).

If BA would just fix the DC pension to a realistic rather than penny pinching level I could whole heartedly say that BA is by far the best company to fly for.

If you don't like the pension go to Virgin. Or so our Director of Flight Ops recently said to a new DEP in front of a gobsmacked audience.

Now I've heard everything!!! :eek: :eek: :eek:

Well thats that decided then :D

Whaaooo there boy!!!!

Did he actually say go to Virgin?!!!

I'd previously heard the response was along the lines of : 'Well, you knew the deal when you started.'

However, I hear more and more that the deal was NOT clear to new starters. It was only described as "Industry Leading".

Flying Tom: Do you have a reference for Cathay and Virgin figures? If these are true then BA members of BALPA should be outraged at how we have let down our new colleagues.

He certainly did use those words Finger Bob, I heard them myself! This was shortly after the CEO said the BARPS pension scheme was OK as he was on it - conveniently forgot to mention he's also on a 250% bonus! Either way they both adamant there would be no increase to the companys contribution rate to BARPS.

I was stood at the bus-stop yesterday (in the rain) when the self same Director of Flight crew drove past in his brand new Jaguar XK coupe. He gave me a cheery wave which I returned - well sort of :ok:

To you it may not be adequate, but by the standards that an 'underfunded' pension scheme exists in both the media and accounting terms, it is not. The company owes no further money other than what it gave to BAPS in contributions for members. The NAPS and APS old DB schemes however require the company to make up the shortfall - at least in NAPS which is underfunded - over the next 10 years or face remediation action from the PPF to prevent the state being overloaded with promises made in the past that companies cannot fulfil.

BA have made no promises on what you shall get from BAPS - capitalism dictates that when the terms are insufficient that BA will not be able to hire the staff.

Force drafting at the aircraft again today. 30+ uncovered trips over the weekend on the 777 alone!:ok:

Re-Heat:

Are you sure that you are not really LCG?

Finger-Bob:

Let me just check my recently received Cathay Introductory Brief letter, oh yes, 15.5% salary Provident fund. Discretionary annual bonus one months salary, housing assistance, school fees, LOL, critical illness cover, 11 years to long haul command, tax 15%..........

BA: "You knew what you were signing up to when you signed your contract".

Did I? BA and BALPA were both in discussion when I joined. BA promised an "industry leading" 12% of salary orally at interview but convieniently forgot to mention only 75% was pensionable. When I phoned for explanation BA said read the MOA, they unfortunately couldn't mail me one as each consumed a small rain forrest. BALPA said the DC pension would be "not as good as NAPS but OK", when I later went to the BFS pension advisor he said, "Oh yes, the BARP pension is crap, your best bet is to pay max AVC." "Will that make it a decent pension?" "Err... not really."

Those BA managers are worth every penny of their salary and bonus's, they certainly know how to manage and motivate.

SFO's look out, it's your NAPS pension they really want, they need the Captains on-side so they can get it. But when they ask why you won't oblige quote back: "because we knew what we were signing up to when we signed the contract".

So can new joiners 'help' in any way? For me, it's a different country, different regulations and I don't understand every abbreviation used in this discussion.

I know the pension is getting worse... But as I said... Can new joiners do anything at all about this?

Cheers.

MD11Man

Yes sorry about the abbreviations, it is proof that you have fully joined when you can reel them off, and I'm moaning too so I must be a fully integrated Nigel.

At the moment the only thing new joiners can do about the pension is join BALPA and pressure them into pressuring BA. BA are pretty immune to pressure at the moment because people like me keep joining. Alternatively we could break off from BALPA and form a new pressure group or join the Transport and General Workers Union. BA listen to the TGWU and would much prefer all pilots to belong to BALPA.

What has changed with the new CEO is that management are now much more militant than the workers. There are huge costs that need reducing but those that are going to pay aren't the ones that can be accused of causing them.

Because we DEPs mostly come from LoCo backgrounds we expect less but have actually given more, ie. free type rating, low pension overhead, wage reduction. A 30 year baggage handler can cost the company £35M, still get a full final salary pension and provide zero flexibility. A 30 year retired Captain's pension drawn from today will exceed my total career earnings for about a third of my remaining career.

Joining BA is like winning the gold medal but finding it's not solid gold but gold plated. Looks the same but not worth the same.

Perhaps BALPA needs a BARP Rep.

I nominate Flying Tom!;)

Seriously, don't join. When the current trickle dries up market forces will ensure the pension improves.

Yes it really is that bad.

Mismanagement over the years has led to a very low level of morale.

With regards to pensions, management are currently carrying out a propoganda campaign to try to convince emoloyees that it is their job to make up the underfunding of NAPS. Obviously they will have to push this through before the regulator insists that BA fund the shortfall (as they easily could).

Apparently there will be some very large bonuses on the way to management should they succeed in duping the employees into funding the shortfall.

I understand that a new joiner could easily end up with a pension of less than £10000 pa after 20 years of what is effectively permanent standby or duty.

Finally, pilots are undoubtedly pressured to turn up when less than fit due to the draconian absence management policy.

Thanks for that, FlyingTom. You seem to have a good knowledge of the case. I will certainly consider all the advice you gave me, and hope to find a lot of information in my contract.

@ Human Factor

Not joining is not really an option. I am a low timer.

Certainly, the information here woke me up. I will try to find more info on this.

MD11Man

Fair cop. Just shop around and make sure you know what you're getting into.

cornet et al,

Having joined BA from elsewhere just under a year ago, I would stress that it’s vital to get a balanced a view as possible of the company. And establish the facts.

I came from a large charter company and, for what it’s worth, I am more than happy with my lot at BA. The company is far from perfect, and a lot of the above mentioned issues are very real, but some people are making mountains out of molehills.

What I see, time and time again, are people I suspect to be ex-cadets, or people who have been cocooned in a BA blanket for a long time, bitching and moaning on this and other forums. It would seem that they have little or no appreciation of the realities of aviation outside of BA. Whilst I would be the first person to stand and fight for our T + C's, the reality is that no company can afford to stand too far away from the lowest common denominator these days. Unfortunate, but true. And the fact of the matter is that people are still applying in droves, so what does that tell you......

Feel free to PM me if you like. Some people might say that my views don’t count as I'm still in my BA “honeymoon period”. Perhaps they’re correct. Or perhaps it’s because I've seen a bit more of the industry outside of BA over recent years than some.....

Good luck with the decision,

C_8

Perhaps you have yet to fly with a selector? It's not about load factor, it's about yield.

you always hear the bad stories the good stories never see the daylight people are used to whinging you can never make anyone happy all the time so join in mate and enjoy the ride :ok:

I am quite sure who I am thank you

That is why there is such a problem.

If you underestimate what the new regulator will do to companies who fail to fund their promises, or find some agreement with staff to reduce the promises made to underfunded schemes, if could well be companies going down the pan along with any hope of refunding underfunded DB schemes.

At least as a DC scheme member, newer employees don't run the risk of losing the whole lot if the company fails. DB scheme members are in a far worse position having to fully fund retired members' pensions before all others. You could end up with the state pension - or less if you contracted out.

Would you not incentivise management to come to an agreement through bonuses? Far cheaper than actually being forced by PPF to follow their plan.

CM,

Whilst I respect your opinion and many of the valid points that you raise on this forum, both my memory and history show that you have never had a single good word to say about your employer. Can I just ask one question; if you are so dissatisfied with you lot, why don't you move to pastures greener?!

Regards,

C_8

Cuban 8, I suggest that you are in the "honey moon" period as I was just over 7 years ago, after various employment with various companies, and sadly I am a "cocooned cadet".

Come back in 7 years time. Then feel free to post on how much down the plug hole your terms and conditions have gone because you think its OK.

How many times you have seen our glorious luvies refuse to operate because they need an extra crew member now the club load has gone from 21 to 22. Then after you have waited for 45 mins for them to arrive you call ready, ah but you've forgotten the tuggies are going off shift "sorry mate not my problem" result you miss your slot then wait another hour for a tug. Thats OK cos everyone else is getting overtime, all that is except you.

After a few years it wears a bit thin. Before you shout "Nirvana" from the rooftops spend more than "just under one year" in my shoes
:{

Perhaps after thirty-five years, having paid a fortune into the pension scheme you might just feel the same. Would you give up the 75K pension and 250K lump sum?

To sum it up, after all those years, you exit the flight deck after your very last flight to be told by the First Class Purser "I poured a glass of champagne for all the crew to toast your retirement, but the CSD made me pour them all down the sink, no drinking in his cabin". Perhaps a manager to say goodbye.. well it was a Sunday morning, Say no more.

If you class this as whinging then good luck to you!

C_8 - If I've never had a single good word to say about my employer then I suggest you ought to read my first post on this thread. Whilst you seem to look down on people who, in your words, "have little or no appreciation of the realities of aviation outside of BA", might I remind you that you are not working in the world of aviation outside of BA. You are working for BA now, which historically has had better terms of employment for its pilots than the rest of the UK industry. Those terms were not achieved by looking at the UK outside BA and saying"Oh how lucky we are". Had we adopted that approach we'd be negotiating down to the levels of our cheapest competitors, not negotiating upwards like Virgin did (incidentally, they did that using the benchmarking data compiled by the BACC).

You may believe that "no company can afford to stand too far away from the lowest common denominator these days", but I suggest you take a look at BAs accounts, as many before you have done over many years, and consider the cost base and productivity of the Flight Ops department compared to BA's overall turnover. Then compare that data to those of our major competitors. If you email your BALPA reps you may even get hold of the latest benchmarking data. You'll find that we're rather good value compared to our (profitable) international competitors. Attempts to screw yet more pennies from us are driven primarily by management desires to reach their bonus targets rather than the likelihood of making any significant contribution to profitability. Perhaps in another year when you've sat out a de-icing fiasco at LHR, a two week cancellation spree after snow in the USA leaves us 'short' of cabin crew, and another ground staff walk out you'll be less inclined to believe that profitability has to come directly out of your pocket.

DD,

I have to say I beg to differ with your opinion. I made it clear that, in my opinion, BA is far from perfect. However, do you think that the problems to which you allude to are exclusive to BA?! Surely you are not that ignorant.

What I am saying is that the industry is, unfortunately, going down hill. Being an airplane driver is not the job it used to be. Perhaps BA is the best of a bad bunch. I can assure you from what I know that these problems, and more, exist elsewhere. At least we are not really exposed to the constant uncertainty and dubious job security that a lot of our colleges are!

If, as a seven year veteran like yourself, I am back here moaning about the company, I’m certain I will be doing so confident in the knowledge that the grass really is no greener elsewhere!

wp,

I am well aware that BA is not the sort of company that you leave at the drop of a hat, the implication of doing so are significant. However, I am merely suggesting that if I were as disgruntled as CM seems to be, I would SERIOULSY consider moving on. Life is too short. I am certain he has nowhere near 35 year service...... I would be very inclined not to be counting on that 75k and 250k lump sum too!!!

It is very disappointing to hear about your experience. But I’m sure you saw things change significantly over your time, and that is a sign of things to come. I wish I was in the industry over the era that you were, the fun seems to be disappearing rapidly these days :-(.

Kind Regards,

C_8.

As an outsider my apologies for butting in but.....

Whilst I applaud you for wanting to maintain your present T&C I implore you to fight for better.

As has been stated earlier on this thread BA has the best T&C and as an easyJet driver I'd like them to stay that way as if nothing else it gives us something to aim for even we don't quite reach it :{

You are misguided though to think that you have to come down to the lowest common denominator. How about setting the standard. If you track the bottom you'll end up in a spiral dive. If you go higher companies have to follow. Nobody is talking about being greedy......

Remember your managers are on bonuses to produce cost savings. Roughly translated they'll get richer if they make you poorer. Whether it's adowngrade from a Sheraton to Marriott and before you know it you're in a Travel Inn by the motorway (I jest not).

Do you want to be poorer?

A little cut here and there soon mounts up. Once lost it's very difficult to get back.

Well Cuban 8 clearly has aspirations of being a manager, think of all those KPIs he would get:*