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X-Centric 30th Aug 2005 23:37

An Honest & Uncensored Debate About Jet2
Allow me to get the ball rolling. I was an advocate of Jet2, believing in all of the BS that I was fed at the interview stage. I now have the misfortune to work for them. Their terms & conditions are as follows:

Terms: Theirs at all times
Conditions: Appalling

There is a dictatorship at the head of this airline that we should all be very wary of in more ways than one. I am astounded as to why they don't make more appearences on this site. Is it because their bullying CEO threatens legal action against everyone who doesn't see his point of view totally & unquestioningly & so any voice of opposition is promptly removed? And don't ever dare to think about handing in your notice & leaving this dubious outfit. For that is a sin that PM can only counter with threats, & denial of references to a new employer, as a very good friend of mine is finding out at the moment. (This, by the way, after he worked a four month notice period with us).

Jet2/Channex are going to be very short of crew soon. We are worth a look, possibly, if you are going through our TRSS to get jet time in your log book. You may have to put up with the likes of us for a short time to reach where you finally want to be. If you are type rated on the 737 or 757 then come & join us for the lowest pay in the industry, constant roster changes, cancellation of leave, working for an authoritarian management with a "style" straight out of a Dickens novel, aircraft with constant tech problems, certain F/Os promoted on the basis of "suck-up-ability" rather than flying skills (as ever, some upgraders are excellent), & contractors who fly to their own SOPs so are really a lined up hole in the Swiss cheese!

This outfit needs to realise that they are now flying human beings around not inanimate freight. The market has changed: there are now employment opportunities almost eveywhere & they are going to struggle like hell to keep going if they continue to treat us like ****. As for me? I can't leave soon enough. And by the way, messrs PM & ID, you would spend your energies far more wisely by improving your employee relations, for flight safety reasons if nothing else, than holding in-house witch hunts & threatening to sack anyone who mentions anything derogatory about Jet2 on Pprune. We do so because you are incapable of listening to us. :yuk:

pilothouse 31st Aug 2005 09:06


The Jet2 you describe is somewhat different to the one I work for! Yes, pay and conditions need to improve but 95% of my fellow pilots seem happy enough for the moment.

You are obviously very bitter and I wouldn't like to belittle whatever scenario you have encountered because it has obviously left you traumatised, but please don't wreck Jet2 for the rest of us.

...........and another thing, X-Centric!

You say, "aircraft with constant tech problems".

I don't know where you've worked before (maybe nowhere) but in several decades of flying I have never known so few ADDs and tech problems generally.

Have you any idea what it's like to fly aircraft that limp around with 5 or 6 pages of ADDs? It happens all over the world but certainly not at Jet2.

jet2jockey 31st Aug 2005 09:44

- CEO is a potentially dangerous bully who likes to shout and rant at anyone from Service Air to Check In staff to Pilots.. He reduced an Aircrew to tears in MJV recently prior to departure just because they used the APU on the ground.

- The use of APU for shutdown is now not permitted unless the cabin tempertature is +30 -10 - it's going to be a cold yorkshire winter for crews - this new 'money-saving' policy was just dumped on us without any consultation - PM shows no respect even for his own management pilots who are a very experienced bunch and deserve better. This policy often sees us running one engine for 5-7 minutes or so while the ground guys hook up the GPU - penny smart / pound stupid?

- The aircraft are not holding up too well IMHO. They are 20 years old and have around 45000 hrs (5 years continuous flying) on the airframe. That's fine as long as the maintenance is generously resourced. I take an aircraft with significant ADDs out about 50% of the time. In recent times I've operated with 1 pack only, no EHSI, no Fuel summation unit, faulty main tank fuel gauges to name a few. One CPT I know was asked to take an aircraft that could only acheive Flap 15 until the FTM stepped in and stopped it. This may be partly because PM has had shouting fits at some of the engineers and many of them have left or it may be that the fleet is too old for the flying schedule?

- Roster stability is non-existant. We check-in with Crewing after every rotation to see what changes there are for the crew. It's like being on permanent standby - you can't plan a social life with any certainty. I've heard that one of our FOs was recently hauled down to Bournemouth for tea (no biscuits) and publicly humliated in the company circlular for refusing to accept a change that would have gone into his day off with less than 24 hrs notice.

- It's been a hard summer for many. Frequently rostered for 7 days of duty. Sometimes only getting the legally required 1 day off. They are working towards 5 days max duty but it may be too little too late for some. Minimum rest between flying days is common. Finishing on a late(ish) and starting on an early has been frequent as well but seems to be improving a little lately.

- Also, lots of nightflying this summer. Latest flight used to get back at around 9.30pm now there are several that get back between 1 and 3am. It's had a big impact on quality of life for many with families.

- Captains take home around 3500 - FOs around 2500. All airlines have to compete for quality pilots in the current market. Rather than paying the market rates, Jet2 is preferring to use contractors to make up the numbers - another case of penny smart / pound stupid?

- On the upside, most of the people in Ops / Crewing / Aircrew are nice to be with and there is a good 'small company' atmosphere where you get to know people quite well.

Pilothouse - no-one wants to wreck Jet2 for the many, many great people who work there but you can't change things by keeping quiet and bending over. The problem is there is no consultation and feedback is not encouraged through internal channels - meaning that PPrune is one of the few places people can have a rant and air their frustrations.

PM thinks people should be shouted at and they will do what they are told like naughty children. I find I can't work for someone like that anymore.

Doors to Automatic 31st Aug 2005 10:07

I have had nothing to do with this outfit in person but have met a couple of former managers who certainly corroborate what has been said here.

pilothouse 31st Aug 2005 13:02

"The use of APU for shutdown is now not permitted unless the cabin tempertature is +30 -10 - it's going to be a cold yorkshire winter for crews"

Yes, these are the guidelines but Captains do have discretion, it says so.

"In recent times I've operated with 1 pack only, no EHSI, no Fuel summation unit, faulty main tank fuel gauges to name a few."

Show me an airline that doesn't. Even some "reputable" airlines will cross an ocean on one pack.

"Roster stability is non-existent. We check-in with Crewing after every rotation to see what changes there are for the crew. It's like being on permanent standby - you can't plan a social life with any certainty."

I've never had such a stable roster as this summer. Where else have you worked? This is industry standard. Unless you happen to work for an outfit with negotiated stability windows, this is what life as a pilot is like.

"Frequently rostered for 7 days of duty."

Agreed, not pleasant, though it does suit those who want to commute home and need more than 2 days off to do it.

"Minimum rest between flying days is common. Finishing on a late(ish) and starting on an early has been frequent."

Undesirable, but normal industry standard.

"Also, lots of nightflying this summer. Latest flight used to get back at around 9.30pm now there are several that get back between 1 and 3am. It's had a big impact on quality of life for many with families."

You think that finishing at 3am is a night flight? Try an 1800 BFS-Larnaca-BFS, then you'll know what a night flight is. ALL pilots' families have a rough time.

"No-one wants to wreck Jet2 for the many, many great people who work there but you can't change things by keeping quiet and bending over."

Agreed, but attacking the man who is responsible for our livelihoods in public is potentially disastrous.

jet2jockey 31st Aug 2005 13:50

Pilothouse said - "Attacking the man who is responsible for our livelihoods is potentially disasterous"

You seem to think everything at Jet2 is industry norm. No problem with it being on here then eh? Everyone reading will think - "yep - normal that".

Attacking CEO disasterous? Ooh - maybe he'll jump up and down and shout at some people and we'll all be scared some more... Never mind, it'll be very motivating for us and we'll all work much harder.


pilothouse 31st Aug 2005 14:11

Yes, I repeat, most things at Jet2 are industry norm, except of course that most pilots work harder than we do and suffer more disruption.

And I've no problems with people reading this thread because those with any real exposure to the industry will know all this already.

They will be absolutely amazed at your suggestion that we shouldn't need to phone Crewing for changes before going home!

X-Centric 31st Aug 2005 15:01

Pilothouse, I am a captain with over 4,000 hours on type, both NG & Classic. I have worked for two previous 737 operators as well as spending several years flying turborpops around Europe. From the tone of your reply it sounds very much as though it is you who has very little experience of our industry. If you are experienced then I'd guess that it all comes from Channex, because there is no way on earth that you'd be so accepting of PMs lousy attitude if you had any other relevant flying experience.

So, you find it acceptable to operate with one pack only? Indeed if you check the MEL it is so with certain altitude restrictions. However, do you then find it acceptable to be operating on one pack, have the remaining pack trip off at FL230 & continue to operate from MAN to BUD when the initial trip off occured at LAMSO? Jet2 do. They operated this aircraft in just such a manner & then had to return from BUD to MAN at 8,000ft with an aircraft full of passengers!

How about ATC informing a crew shortly after rotation that they ..."have fuel spraying from the right wing..." & the passengers calling the cabin crew to inform them that they could see liquid coming from the wing. The Decision? Hell, lets carry on because the leak ceased at approximately FL120!

How about three of our very good FOs warning the company that one of the MAN based contract Captains was a dangerous operator & something needed to be done? (Full credit here must go to a training captain who took the problem seriously & tried to deal with the situation only to be basically humiliated & over ridden in his decision making by the management.) They moved this guy to LBA, as we all know a far more technical airfield, & what happened? On his first day the FO refused to fly with him ever again & on his second day he nearly went off the end of the runway. Only then did Channex dismiss him. He nearly had to crash the bloody thing before they would take any action! And which captain am I referring to? Look at the newspapers from two weeks ago.

The issue of the APU poses me with a problem. I frequently start up the APU even if ground power is available because I personally think that we are following a potentially lethal course with this ridiculous policy. Someone is going to be seriously injured or even killed to save this half assed airline a few dollars. My SOPs, however, state that the APU is not to be used. Now we are having problems with the APUs because they weren't meant to be used in this way (for such short periods: on & then off again five minutes later) & so any savings that we have made are about to possibly go out of the window. Again, smacks of a management team who don't have a clue, doesn't it?

Sorry Pilothouse but you talk absolute tripe when you attempt to claim that by working seven days in a row you somehow get more days off together so it's good for the commuters. If you get two days off together after a seven day duty then you are blessed. We frequently finish on a late & start on an early, so commuting, or having quality time at home with your family, is damn near impossible. No, this is not the industry norm, thank God.

757manipulator 31st Aug 2005 15:09

Pilot-house, your talking crap buddy...industry norm my arse, get your head out of the sand!:mad:

pilothouse 31st Aug 2005 15:15

I despair!

10000+ hours, 5+ employers, several types from 5 to 100+ tonnes.

X-Centric, I sincerely wish you happiness in your next job.

ATIS 31st Aug 2005 15:50

pilothouse, you're not part of da management are you?

It was only the management peeps who couldn't see past their office windows at my previous outfit. (Maybe they should have raised the blinds). They were constantly told by the frontliners that things were BAD. They didn't even batter an eye lid. Now they are in the worst state they have ever been. Cancelling flights, wet leasing flights, resignations at the highest rate they have ever been.

If you are management, listen to whats going on, cos its usually the pilots who want the best for their airline.

If you're not management excuse the waffling.

pilothouse 31st Aug 2005 16:16

ATIS, I'm definitely not Management! One or two of my fellow pilots know who pilothouse is and several others will easily guess.

I agree with you wholeheartedly that Management need to listen and learn from what's going on. There are indeed things that need changing.

Channex is hardly a new airline, but I think most would agree that Jet2 feels like one. I've been in on airline start-ups before and you have to expect some deficiencies until things settle down. Inevitably this takes time but in my experience it gets there in the end.

It's the extremism of just a few alienated pilots that can kill our Company stone dead, that's what concerns me.

The Potter 31st Aug 2005 18:18

Allow me to tell you just how good & "industry norm" Jet2 actually are.

:sad: Line training captains who use assumed temp & derate during windshear conditions!

:sad: Aircraft being flown with so many defects that it is downright dangerous but commercial pressure seems to scare the skippers fartless so they'll take it!

:sad: Senior captains who take the opportunity to have a bloody good sleep during the entire cruise phase whether PF or PNF!

:sad: The above senior captain who is prepared to ground an aircraft because his cup holder is u/s, or at least he says he will. Imagine him explaining that one to our ayatollah!

:sad: Slapping 5,000 bonds onto crew who were already 737 or 757 rated & then not reducing the bond on a pro rata basis!

:sad: Attempting to charge existing company 737 drivers 20,000 for a 757 course!

:sad: Want to leave them, as you invariably will, then that's a four month notice period. Dare to not work this full period & you will be charged approximately 310 per day minus your annual salary divided by 365 to cover the cost of a contractor to replace you!

:sad: Call into crewing at the end of every duty day to see how they're going to muck up the rest of your roster. A late where you had an early? Why not? It's just your life outside of work!

:sad: An excellent crewing department who are so overworked because management will not release any funds for extra staff that they must be totally p***ed off. They are genuinely good people who are one of the very few +ve's in this airline.

:sad: Positioning cabin crew by train between MAN & LBA & expecting them to pay for their own ticktes up front!

:sad: A CEO who thinks absolutely nothing about interfering with a turnround & issuing B0110ckings especailly if his blessed APU is fired up on stand, & upsetting the entire crew. A crew, by the way who then had to operate a flight back to the UK in an upset state! Flight safety? Fit to fly?

Just a random list & there are more. They have some really good people working for them but the best will leave if this rotten management doesn't start to treat it's staff with just a tad of human respect.

Right Way Up 31st Aug 2005 19:23

Reading this thread & others about Jet2 all I can say is there seems to be a little too much smoke for there not be fire. I think it is about time the CAA started to do their job. I would say that most airlines that are under their jurisdiction are pushing the boundaries. You only have to look at the fallout of the Helios crash to realise that "laissez-faire" control of airlines can only lead to tears.

X-Centric 1st Sep 2005 00:00

Extremism of a few alienated pilots, Pilothouse?
So you don't think that any of us who know damn well how appalling conditions are at Jet2 should be allowed to speak up then? No one is trying to cost anybody an airline: as you have said there are some very good & talented people who have the misfortune to be employed by PM. The point here is that the management team simply will not listen to the pilots even when it concerns issues of flight safety. That is more important than any of our jobs as far as I'm concerned. A dictating, jumped up bully who treats his staff like serfs affects our terms & conditions of employment but it sure as hell also has an effect on flight safety. When captains are genuinely so bloody scared of the man that they will not even start up an APU in 25C for fear of wasting his money then we have a right to free speech.

If ever they had listened to us then it wouldn't have reached this forum in the first place. If we didn't have a castrated 'Aircrew Manager' who was actually allowed to make a decsion (bet he's forgotten how) things might have been bearable. Just think, Pilothouse, they may sit up & take note of this thread. They might not intimidate Pprune to have the thread removed. Instead they might realise that they have got things very wrong & then conditions will improve for those who have to stay & I'm not just talking about their low salary or lack of sector pay. That's my hope & the aim of this thread.

There certainly are plenty of other jobs out there at the moment for jet drivers & that's why Channex have lost approximately 17 crew in the last month alone, of which, I am pleased to announce, I am one. To all of my colleagues who have to stay then I look forward to flying with you during my notice period & I look forward even more so to flying with some of you in a far more positive & people orientated airline.

Thunor 1st Sep 2005 00:35

Er ... Wow!!!?

I'm an EX-Turboprop Captain and after 4 years "unemployment" (wrong place/wrong time Sept. 11th/911) I have just "relocated to LBA with the sole intention of trying to become a Jet2 F.O. (simply got to fly a Boeing {or Airbus} before I finally retire!); however this thread fills me with dread!!!

Is it time for me to come up with another (better!) plan?

Norman Stanley Fletcher 1st Sep 2005 01:22

I am an ex-Channex employee and I sadly have to concur with most of the negative comments here. PM can be an extremely difficult boss and definitely goes by the 'Joseph Stalin' school of subordinate handling. He can in an instant turn from the most charming man into the world to being threatening and abusive and then back to being charming in almost the same breath. You just need to think of a number of such people you have heard of - Donald Trump, Robert Maxwell, Alan Sugar, Michael O'Leary, Rupert Murdoch etc - they all have similar qualities. PM has sacked a number of his employees on the spot in the past. The sad truth is that these are the qualities which bring people to the top of our society but they are also the ones that bring them down. There is no dealing with these guys - you either take them as they are or you leave.

My abiding memory of him will be 'early morning prayers' where all employees at the Bournemouth office had to turn up for the morning briefing given by the Ops Officers and supervised by PM himelf. Often after a night of freight operations in the middle of a UK winter they would have a number of difficult situations to handle like aircraft diverting all round the country due fog etc. After the briefing by the Ops guys, they would then be subjected to public abuse by PM in front of all the secrataries, suppliers, engineers etc and told how terrible their decisions were etc. It was a truly dreadful and demeaning sight and absolutely repulsed me (and virtually everyone else watching).

Incidentally, Channex has the worst safety record of any airline in Britain by a long way. In my time there they had 3 accidents including one fatal one that killed both pilots in an F27 crash. I was much earlier on in my commercial flying career then, but I came closer there to my demise than at any time during my previous RAF career and my subsequent commercial career. It would be hard to blame PM directly for all that - fundamentally it was a cultural problem created indirectly by him and which was extremely difficult to tackle. I do not criticise anyone for working there - circumstances in our lives are such that it is sometimes necessary to work places we would rather not be. I wish all the guys at Jet2 the best - it is without doubt the rock bottom end of the jet market and the second they get a chance to leave they should do so.

Thunor 1st Sep 2005 01:26

Thank You Norman Stanley Fletcher !

Time for Plan B (for me personally) and for those who are stuck with Plan A all the very best (sounds like you need it!)

Spartacan 1st Sep 2005 08:09

>>fundamentally it was a cultural problem created indirectly by him and which was extremely difficult to tackle.<<

And here is the nub of the problem. The suits at the CAA will do nothing about a situation like this.

Robo's law 1st Sep 2005 08:29

Mostly agree! Been here a year fed up wanna leave.

Crew room rumours are that i'm not the only one, but hey maybe a load of us leaving will make them sit up and take note. Yeah right.

What a change i've seen in 12 months!!

Hoof Hearted 1st Sep 2005 08:45

Norman Stanley you are so right. To all employees - get out while you can! That's what I did. As a former F27 Captain I was shocked to witness some of the scenes described earlier. Indeed I have been the subject of PM's wrath on more than one occassion. A previous topic now removed asked if there was a flight safety issue - draw your own conclusions of course! To Thunor - I hope you do have a plan B and good luck. For my part working for this outfit has been a major factor in getting out of this dreadful business.

trainer too 2 1st Sep 2005 09:18

The thing that amases me the most is that some people complain about not being involved in what is happening in the company and then Norman is complaining about the "morning prayers".... This was in my view the best internal company communications I have come along in all my career. Yes PM might come over overbearing but in the morning meeting, which he most of the time did not attend because he is/was on the road, there was interaction between all parties about what was going on. The only thing that always amassed me was the fact that most people did not say anything during the meeting and only where commenting and moaning when it was over!

Another amazing thing was that as an FO I liked it a lot but my LHS was generaly not impressed. As a Captain they need not be subjected to these earthly things........they knew best themselves :confused:

PM is the most energetic guy in the industry, but he is also the most approach able I have come ever since! The fact that 90% of the staff have less energy and less knowledge must hurt. But don't blame it on the guy but on yourselves. :mad:

Shuperstar Loadie 1st Sep 2005 11:04

Norman Stanley, are you implying that the fatal F27 crash was the company's fault or the other incidents because I will correct your jaded view (sorry you lost your job but some of us faught to stay with the company in another capacity). We all it was wrong. But these incidents were proved to be factors from outside the airline and the fatal accident was very much crew error, read the AAIB report or AS invistigation into its loading!.

We all know it's hard work and we are undermanned but there is light at the end of the tunnel.

As for PM doing the morning meeting that must have been 6 or 7 years ago long before Jet2.

Paying for type ratings? look at Ryanair, Easy, etc and tell me they don't.

The answer to it all is what i have been told in previous jobs.......... if you don't like it LEAVE!.

There are a lot of good proffesional people in Jet2 and Channex and it is a joy to work with them.

topkapi737 1st Sep 2005 11:19

Stories I have heard:

-flt int is open all the time so you can hear the LBA trng capt chewing his gum for the 2 hr flt down to BCn

-An ex-capt told me that he heard cabin crew use service int to discuss just what they were going to say in their report on the Capt after the flt.Who do these people think they are?If somebody did that to me I make a PA"Sorry,ladies and gents,I get out here...cabin crew are in charge,they'll be taking you to xyz"

-Cabin chief thinks he/she is in charge of the flt and is encouraged in this belief wholeheartedly by company.

-CEO is very weird-carries clipboard onto flts and makes notes-hangs around during crew briefing and makes suggestions as to how to behave.

-FO's cant fly-call 400' on a no FD departure and look non-plussed when you say nothing-dont know what cws is,in fact never seen it used-"whats that?what does it do?'-some fool told them you cant use V/S,that its somehow dangerous-if they dont see the magical VNAV PTH annunciation,they think its dangerous,outside SOP,must be unsafe-take speedbrake when the FMC says drag reqd-no thought just blind procedure-they get panicky going into busy places like AMS where they ask for high ROD and tight turns-if you take flap 5,it never occurs to thm to maintain 220 to get the higher rod-why?because somebody tell them its unsafe,against SOP!cant fly visual approaches manually -only ILS approaches using FD and AP-again all encouraged by trng-no wonder the contract guys make up their own thing-

-these same FO's that can barely fly a F27,let alone a 737,are nice and quick to sneak reports into the CP down at Bournemouth-this CP then has the nasty habit of calling said capt down for an interview BUT NOT the little sneak who made the report-if youve got something to say,say it out loud and clear and to someones face-

-F27 Capt,now 737 copilot with grand total of 50 hrs says to capt on 6 mile final "You know your gear isnt down?"-never heard of noise abate app?NO..they intercept GS at 3k,gear down flap 15 at 10 miles just like sim-open your mouth when you know what you're saying,otherwise button it tight.

dedicated to the contract pilots of the world.

duece19 1st Sep 2005 11:33

Contract captain, oh contract captain.

How come they always know better, how come they are always the onces who have problems with "incompetent FOs".

Contract captain, oh contract captain just relax a little and follow this (not the last two) companies SOPs

jet2impress 1st Sep 2005 11:38

-Cabin chief thinks he/she is in charge of the flt and is encouraged in this belief wholeheartedly by company.

Whats all that about? I don't get you? As an SCCM I have never once operated a flight with this belief. Bit of a gross genrelisation one thinks.

-An ex-capt told me that he heard cabin crew use service int to discuss just what they were going to say in their report on the Capt after the flt.Who do these people think they are?If somebody did that to me I make a PA"Sorry,ladies and gents,I get out here...cabin crew are in charge,they'll be taking you to xyz"
If the cabin crew really did think a report was required for what ever reason, then so be it. I guess making the PA you suggested would be one of those things that would just be added to such a report! Bit silly of them to discuss this over the service interphone though.

Norman Stanley Fletcher 1st Sep 2005 11:59

Shuperstar Loadie

Just to correct any misunderstanding - I did not 'lose my job' but left when I had a better job to go to. Channex were good to me personally but nonetheless the safety issues were very real. In addition to the accidents I alluded to, there was at least one more after I left involving another F27. I am extremely familiar with both the facts and personalities of the fatal F27 crash and I am slightly wary of entering into a debate about it - therefore I won't! As a little aside, in that moment you saw the magnificent best of PM - he was fantastic to the families. It is nonetheless fact that Channex suffered a series of accidents including the fatal one with the F27 which is not the case with other equivalent airlines.

A discussion over safety in any airline is a bit like an argument over some of the Asian or African airlines with high accident rates. Inevitably hackles are raised by some of the professional and contientious people who work for them when they feel their credibility is questioned. There are actually many similarities between these companies and the Channex operation. Poor pay and conditions, old aircraft with a wide variety of non-standard fits, a few 'maverick' captains with a lot of non-standard practices, non-rigid SOPs and interference in flight operations from commercially-driven bosses are the backbone of airline bad practice. All of these features applied to Channex when I was there but only current Jet2 crews can say if that is the case now.

It is only when you have worked for different companies that you can tell if there was a 'safety culture' in place at a particular organisation. The problem is that if the 'safety' card is played by disgruntled crews then the management often get stroppy rather than address the genuine issues. I can only tell you my own experience - there was no effective 'safety culture' in Channex when I was there when compared to the companies I have worked for more recently. You can be offended by that - it is nonetheless the truth.

Therein lies the problem - you are faced with a sharp, hard-hitting, no-compromise CEO who you either love or hate. What has made Jet2 an apparent success is the drive of PM. Like all such people he can be the best of the best and worst of the worst. You see the crux of the problem here - some people loved 'morning prayers' and others loathed them! That is the nature of the beast. His style inspires both unswerving loyalty and undying loathing depending on who you speak to. My point is that if Channex are to avoid another accident then they must put in place a 'safety culture' which by definition higher management outside the Flt Ops world cannot interfere in. It seems unlikely to me that given the personalities involved that will happen.

screw fix diret 1st Sep 2005 14:13

You don't think I should consider joining Jet2 then?

...and I guess BALPA recognition isn't on the horizon just at the mo either?

Autobrake Low 1st Sep 2005 19:23

Topkapi - you have some issues - worrying ones for someone in your position. Part of your role as the LHS driver should be to pass on your experience to your colleague in the RHS (line trainer or not). If inexperience leads to bizarre comments or incorrect flying technique on the part of your COLLEAGUE why not try explaining that to them, rather than berating their stupidity as your comments suggest you do?
Maybe then you will find yourself less on the receiving end of these 'sneaky reports'.

X-Centric 1st Sep 2005 23:02

Trainer too 2

The best internal company communictions
As long as they are one way my friend. Just try to put forward an opposing view to that of the management & watch how the poor soul will have his/her head ripped off if PM is in attendance. Go on, try it, I dare you. Say something completely controversial like, "I don't think it's right that we are still using out of date ILS approach plates for VCE with obsolete ILS frequencies & idents on them."


You have issues buddy. Most of the FOs that I am flying with are excellent. If they lack experience then they should be coached by you not slated for lack of knowledge. It sounds to me as though you are having difficulties in flying to Channex SOPs, garbage as they are, they should be adhered to or else it can all go wrong very quickly. I'm sorry but you sound like the very worst type of contractor out there, one who gets the rest of us a real bad name. If your spoken English is as weak as your written English then may I be so bold as to suggest that you possibly have communication 'issues' with your crew & that could be the root cause of your problems with your FO.

The same FOs...are nice & quick to sneak reports into the CP at Bournemouth
Well my friend. At least three FOs did report a certain captain to the flight management team at BOH. They had serious concerns regarding the man's aptitude & ability. In at least two of the cases is was the FOs who saved Jet2 from potentially disasterous situations. What did Channex do? Well, one of the FOs was told by the MAN base manager that BOH believed that they were conducting a whispering campaign against this particular captain so they moved the captain to LBA! I believe that he lasted two days before nearly skipping off the runway & then they finally listened: they dismissed him. It took another near disaster with this pilot before they took action. Had this company listened to these FOs then we may not (and until the full inquiry findings are published I stress may not) have witnessed the dreadful scenes from Greece on our tv screens the other week. Jet2 were warned & sat & did sweet FA about him until he nearly cost them an aircraft. They are short of Captains & so long as they have a person with a licence in the LHS then that's ok, even if he or she is downright dangerous.

topkapi737 2nd Sep 2005 09:35

ok,so my engleeeesh not so good...contract pilots have a tough time so spare a thought guys..we see on average about 20 different types of sop during a single career...enough to confuse the shi* out of anyone...what we do is prioritieze..airmanship,judgement,skill...no contract pilot I know of goes against sop for the hell of it...they know when a situation calls for improvasation...what we dont like is some smart alec freshface giving us a lecture for 2 hrs on "we dont do that here" and then when hes PF,he totally screws up...its called "bare-faced cheek" in english,someone told me...and then they make report but they dont tell CP full story..they say Capt too fast,not making good call-outs,or just like another thread he didnt make one hold before approach-but they dont know..lot of airspace has no 250 k requirement or atc ask the impossible and you must trade speed for alt-visual approach,NO CALL OUTS,except 500 incapac call-but still they make calls approaching minima-I keep quiet and laugh to myself-
why are these younger guys being told only about flying using FMC and AP?why nobody tell them about pitch/thrust,raw data,recovering from above glide due bad atc-I dont blame these co-pilots..no,not at all-its the trainers,they dont give correct priorities...
crm is not so tangible you know...many different forms..one mans crm is anothers posion..good crm only possible when both pilots are experienced on type...if cockpit gradent steep,you cannot have same crm as for shallow gradent..it just dont work

no offence to jet2 -they try to make a little money in a difficult business-no offence guys

Lucky Strike 2nd Sep 2005 20:12

"good crm only possible when both pilots are experienced on type"

Another incorrect statement.

If your are the Captain, you take what resources are available to you and manage them; CRM is short for Cockpit Resource Managment in case your not sure.

If the First Officer is new on type it's up to you to create the working relationship; you make allowances for his lack of knowledge and experience on type whilst encouraging him to speak out and prevent you crashing the aeroplane.

kotakota 2nd Sep 2005 21:53

APU restrictons
I had the misfortune to be positioned on jet 2 the other day when the OAT was 25c . The inside of the aircraft was unbearable.If they are waiting for the OAT to be reported as 31c , which they may well miss , the cabin temp will be pushing 40c before you know it with 148 pax.
Despite my protests , nothing was done. One of these days they will have a medically - weak pax on board , and Health and Safety will get involved. It is also extremely dodgy for flight crew to get too hot and expect to operate normally shortly thereafter.
The CAA should also have a word.

The Potter 3rd Sep 2005 21:55

The CAA should have more than a word with this outfit. They have real issues with an almost total disregard for flight safety if it interferes with their profits in any way.

Their treatment of the flight crews is the worst that I have ever heard of. Their culture is to listen to the word of just two men. Opinion is frowned upon. It wouldn't be so bad if those two men knew what they were talking about but they don't.

Ignition Override 4th Sep 2005 07:04

Some Ppruners have been fired.

Watch out for libel in print. The Internet can be considered print.:ugh:

jet2jockey 4th Sep 2005 09:57

So many looking to leave there might not be anyone left to fire... :ouch:

RoyHudd 4th Sep 2005 10:02

F27 Guernsey accident
Check out the findings and recommendations from the report. Certain cost-saving aspects like no autopilots needed to be remedied, and ditto for the absence of heaters. These were contributory to the fatigue of the crew, who in the end made a fatal mistake.

I agree with NSF that no company safety culture existed at Channex, and was happy to leave when I did.

Which is not to say that there were no good trainers who taught us how to fly, to operate commercially, and to stay safe. There were, but from the top there was no emphasis whatsoever on safety. It seems like the situation has continued.

Jetavia 4th Sep 2005 12:53

Regarding the 737 fleet.

How many are the "ancient" classics with the old engine instrumentation (steam gauge) like on G-CELF?


How many are the "newer" classics with the digital engine instrumentation?


Bam Thwok 4th Sep 2005 13:36


They're all as you term "steam guage"...

I for one much prefer this display...much easier to read !!

MorningGlory 4th Sep 2005 13:46

I honestly feel sorry for you guys that have to put up with this sort of disgraceful wreckless attitude from your employer and an ignorant prat for a boss, who has a total disregard for safety.

Re-write your Cv's my friends and get out! None of you should have to put of with the conditions you are working with.

Surely even Ezy or FR would be better..?

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