Flybe-What is Balpa for...??
 

Are you happy with your pay package?
In times of an industry wide shortage of experienced pilots, shouldn't we be actively trying to reduce the pay disparity between ourselves and other airlines?
It's no great surprise that both FO's and skippers are being enticed away by offers of an effective 25% pay increase plus the benefits of a better work life balance.

Absolutely old boy!

I too have seen no sign of Balpa fighting in our corner for pay parity (or anything else for that matter, the last scheduling agreement was a joke). I'm tired of earning so much less than people in similar positions. However, I'm happy at Flybe and resent feeling pressured to leave purely because of the pants money! What really rubs salt in the wound is receiving the December/January update and seeing that we're in the strongest financial position that we have been in for years.

Rumours of a 4.7% rise are an insult. We have only received one rise in the last several years of 4%, which results in an effective pay cut because of inflation.

The management are the first to admit that Flybe's continued financial success is as a result of everyone's extremely hard work and dedication. It's time for them to put their money where their mouth is (and for Balpa to stand up for the people that have made the airline what it is today!).

Stop wasting money on wooden floors in the training centre and unnecessary taxis and hotel rooms.

I thank you!

Good to see you agree IC.
Any guesses as to how many others feel the same way about the whole Balpa thing?
I can't say I'm totally happy about the usefulness of my 1% contribution. If it wasn't for the legal representation........

Well said...... i completely agree.

Inferior salary, inferior jets, rosta disruption........

Can there ever be a better position to be in to demand a decent pay rise - company is financially performing and pilots are leaving by the departure lounge load.

And yet 4.7% takes us to year2000..... so we'll only be half a decade behind now.

Great.

Think i might be better cancelling my BALPA membership and getting sky instead.

BPM

BALPA ar a disgrace.

Legal Protection Insurance is available independently at a fraction of the cost of BALPA.

In addition, your right to representation is decided professionally, not upon a whim of some BALPA bod.

Free legal advice as well. I used it and it helped me win a fight for £ thousands.

In addition, the Legal Protection guys seem keen to show they're better than BALPA. One of the guys at work was victimised by management and they pulled out all the stops.


BALPA don't care about anyone but the BA workforce. The BA subscriptions would keep BALPA in luxury without any other subscribers. BA management are about the level BALPA can cope with. Give them a bully-boy management and BALPA are hopeless.

Nothing will ever change. You work within a training airline so my best advise is move on if you don't like it. How much do you guys want? It is a fact that the bigger the Aircraft the bigger the wage. I think you will find that Mr French and his top brass are in Seattle as we speak spending your wishful pay rise!!

acbus,

Could you please supply details of the Legal Protection Insurance that you talk about as I would like to vote with my feet and leave BALPA.

Thank You

PJ

Hudson

What exactly is the airline training in....?

The problem is everyone IS leaving. That leaves me faced with another year of roster disruption and max hours. All smithy is saying is if we payed better in the first place the company wouldn't be unable to crew the summer schedule or end up paying contractors twice as much as they pay us!

Why shouldn't we feel hard done by when we have union representation - (that we pay good money for) - and they seem to be doing naff all to improve our t & c's when the airline is lording it's financial success!

Thankyou...next!
N :*

I hear a number of our worn out colleagues have asked the BHX based CC rep about the hideous hours and rosters etc, only to be told 'it's legal...'

Fighting our corner with pink slippers then?

Long may the exodus continue.

Nedul. Why pay good money for a sub-standard union? If I pay money to someone I want something in return 24/7. If you are willing to pay out money then me and BALPA will say thank you very much.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought you Turbo prop guys were the best paid in that sector.

Hudson

You hit the nail on the head there! Our TP pilots received a 20+% pay rise last year in a bid to retain them because the jet fleet was shrinking. It is no longer the case and we are still almost 50-50 TP/jet.
Our jet salaries are currently well below our comparators (I think 25% was quoted.) Where's the equality in that Balpa.....? Would it be because we don't have a longterm or fulltime Jet jockey on the council???????????

It really depends which are the comparitors when looking at salaries.

From the Balpa website (2004 figures)

Flybe jet capt 49,607 - 59,357
BA City express 49,905 - 63,562

Flybe TP Capt 42,263 - 52, 013
BACX 40,060 - 60,673

I'm not very good at maths, but that would seem to show that a flybe jet captain is somewhere between 0.6% and 7% down on what the most similar airline in the UK is paying, whilst the tp captains are between 5% up and 16% down depending upon where they are in years in rank.

Unless of course you are comparing flying the 146 with flying an A320 or a 737, which as Hudson states isn't really realistic - more seats = more pay.

The reason that I have bothered with this is that this shouldn't become a turboprop against jet issue - divide and rule is to the companies advantage, no one elses. The November seniority list shows that we have 27 more turboprop pilots than jet pilots, but as a lot of those joined since the payrise the split was probably fairly even at the time of the vote. Thus if the jet pilots were so set against the deal, and had cared enough to join Balpa and then bother to vote no, then the turboprop payrise would never have happened to the detriment of the jet pay scales (incidentally - although I fly the dash I voted against it for the reason I gave above).

What we now need is a paydeal to give both jet and turboprop either parity or an advantage over the competition at all points of the payscale from year 1 to year 15. As the tp year 1 is 5% ahead at the moment would that be a sensible aiming point?

Excrab,
The Balpa figures are out of date - check out the PPJN City Express figures -

Capt top £59,229; (£60,117 as of April 2005)

Capt base £51,153; (£51,920 as of April 2005)

This works out something like 4.7% more than Flybe Jet scale at base in April. So to get the Jet up to 5% more than City Express like the Dash, the jet would need a 10% pay rise and the Dash 1% :O

Somehow I cannot see this happening - indeed there are still CC members that still feel that the Dash should get the SAME pay as the jet.:sad:

Thanks anyway for voting No to the last offer but personally I don't think it should be dealt with in that way. It should not be left up to one fleets vote against another. They should simply look at what each A/C's average European pay scale is and try for a little above that.
If they don't sort this out soon there will no-one left to vote anyway on the 146.:mad:

Nedul.

A payrise of 20% on the prop fleet will never keep a Pilot flying a turbo prop. That wage increase did nothing to retain the pilots. It's all about Boys and there toys. If there is something dangling between their legs the boys will want to fly something that goes faster than the competition and flys at flight level nose bleed.

I will return to a turbo prop when the company pays me more than the easyjet driver sitting next to me on the ramp. That is the way it is and nothing is going to change.

My opinion is that after the last payrise, someone down in Exeter made a conscious decision that... "Now they've got their payrise, let's work those b@$*@*ds hard." Surely it's no coincidence that the move to a 6 on 2 off pattern occurred just after the rise, is it?

I would like to think that they can't work us any harder, but when the recent resignations start to kick in at the end of March, I think we're in for a nightmare Summer.

Nedul,

There is indeed a full-time jet jockey on the council. (not me!)

One of the bases recently had a meeting with the Balpa reps to discuss the wage increase. General feeling was that as we are now being compared to Ryanair and Easyjet and that we are flying similar routes to them that we should also get paid like them.

However, the pay submission is now in and in the hands of Flybe. Its a bit too late to change the submission but not too late for the Balpa reps to hear your views. I suggest that you arrange a base meeting with them to air your concerns. They seemed more than happy to meet with everyone if given the opportunity to do so.

flybe is currently 60% unionised and 40% not. I know that there are people not in Blapa who have views and grumbles concerning Flybe. If they want to get heard i suggest they join Balpa because that's the way it works.

And as for Balpa's failings well i think that's both parties faults. They don't know what to ask for if they don't hear from the workers. Conversely, perhaps yearly base meetings would aid communication.

I too feel underpaid and underloved and this summer is going to be a doozie what with all the resignations. The only thing we can hope for this year is that Flybe recognises its own failings and steps up the package to try and retain some of its staff.......is that a pig i saw float past my window?!

Right,

1. You will not return to a turbo prop for more money, simply because it is a turbo prop and is generally viewed as a stepping stone to bigger and better things. Which therefore, makes a 25% payrise for T/P pilots a waste of money and time, because they'll all leave anyway. People are generally on turbo props because they either don't want to move base, have taken a command on it, or it's their first job.

2. The guys flying the jet are generally the more experienced people who have been with the company for longer and therefore are more loyal. Should this not be rewarded by having AT LEAST industry average salaries (and working conditions). These are the pilots who are not leaving the company in the lurch for the summer. But will they continue to be this loyal if levels of pay etc remain below average????? Especially as other airlines are now recruiting.

3. There is no full time jet pilot on the council.

4. I understand that the Independant Pilots Association gives legal cover etc.

There are 2 jet pilots on the CC, one of whom is part time. They both work FULL TIME as CC reps

Iron Curtain,

For your information:

I work with the balpa rep on the jet fleet. Don't worry about it...apology accepted.

Also the IPA is a very worthy organisation but to be fair, what have they done to improve things on your behalf?

How would you go about improving the situation? Surely a collective, cohesive voice is better than battling out terms and conditions on an individual basis. Granted we haven't got what we deserve but we should at least tell our reps what we want.

:E

Whispermode

Yes. there are two jet drivers on the Balpa Council

1 is part time. His financial interest is therefore pro rata.
1 is destined to the dash. Where do his interests lie.

(This is not a personal jibe. I do not queery their integrity. It is however a pertinent point!)

POWER TO THE PEOPLE

Collectively and coherently we must stand...!

Who said picketline........?:E

The self preservation [email protected]

80ktsboth

Sorry but it wasn't communicated effectively to me that we had 2 jet reps!

I'm not in the IPA but if people such as citizen smith think balpa is a waste of time except for the legal cover why not use the IPA instead! I for one am considering getting out of balpa.

You are right we do need to unite through an effective channel or means........not balpa, obviously.

P-J 2

Apologies for using the wrong figures, but I can't see why the pay rise you suggest should be a problem. After all we got a substantial payrise on the dash last time, when the salaries were seriously behind the competition; so why not now have a pay submission that favours the jet, maybe bringing the salaries up over a couple of years (7% per year, for example) with a guarantee that the tp salaries would increase in line with inflation and be reviewed in the third year.

Iron Curtain,

I find your definition of loyalty interesting. There are F/Os from the jet who I flew with when they first joined the company as tp F/Os with 200hrs who are leaving. So how does that make them more loyal to the company than I am as a dash pilot? Loyalty should be rewarded by having a sensible payscale for both fleets which was at least equal to the competition, and then increasing the increment for years served to make it more worthwhile.

As far as 146 captains leaving, the same argument applies as to turboprop pilots - if they want to fly longhaul for Virgin or Emirates,or charter instead of schedule, it doesn't matter how much they are paid (realsitically) the desire for life style change will still make them leave eventually. That will only change when the company gets some decent jets (not Avro RJs or old 737s) and pays the going rate for flying those.

Finally regarding the jet pilots on the company council issue, when there had to be a re-election of cc members last year only one person who wasn't on the cc stood for election and that was a turboprop pilot - so if there are that many jet pilots out there feeling under represented why weren't all their names on the ballot papers?

excrab

Thankyou for your recognition of jet skipper's salary levels in comparison to citixpress.
I would also like to bring to attn. current jet fo salaries.
It would appear that when compared to 2004 levels (according to balpa-which we know are on the short side) they fall dismally short by a whopping 10%.
How can last years pay review have overlooked this....
We were under the impression it would be addressed this time around. I AM a balpa member and I cannot remember being consulted before the pay proposal was submitted for April this year!

A little extreme don't you think, cs????????

Nedul,

good point - i can't remember BALPA asking for their members input regarding this pay offer...

Did they just decide 4.7% on our behalf??

Did they presume we'd be happy with year 2000 salary levels??

Seems to me that with the company making good solid financial progress (you all see the next $485m dash 8 order today?) and with pilots walking out daily - we could be in a strong position to ask for more.

Thats what a lot of BALPA members i know think.

BALPA would have known that too if only they'd asked.

Decision made, resigning from BALPA in the morning.

BPM

If its any consolation to FlyBe - the same questions are frequently asked by many pilots with other operators. I work for a major Charter airline and I'm damned if I know why I still pay the money - same old circular argument every year - no muscle in negotiations because membership too low - no increase in membership because no results from BALPA; actually to be technically correct our membership has crept up due to a change of leadership in the CC - only time will tell if that increase is justified.

Perception of BALPA has always been hindered by a number of adverse concepts:

a. BALPA only really interested in BA.
b. Majority of members only join for legal protection.
c. Fees too high

BALPA enthusiasts will contradict these perceptions and quite understandably so but these feelings remain and until they can be countered such problems endure.

Do we want an Association as a truly 'professional' body like Doctors, Architects, Lawyers, Surveyors etc or do we want an out and out Union (uncomfortable word that for many) - perhaps a Prune Poll would be appropriate ?

BPM,

Don't shoot the messenger but according to base meeting i attended this brings us up to 2005 levels. The representatives presented us with all the facts and trust me it is 2005 level.

That said it's not enough.

Our reps get the figures together themselves. The problem is that we are consistently paired up with the worst paying companies like Cityjet. Our point was that we should be compared to Easy and Ryanair due to our workload. Yes i'm aware that a 146 does not have the same amount of seats as a 737 but we work just as hard with a 6 on 2 off roster (for the most part). If we are directly competing with the big 2 then surely we should be paid like them. Otherwise noone will stay at flybe. People can do a year with us, then go to Easy and on reaching 1500hours become an SFO and payback the flybe bond with the associated wage increase. I mean come on...who's your daddy?

As for negociation at the table surely we should all look to that pinnacle of virtue that is Andy Gilcrest. The Firemen went in with a rudicrous pay demand of (let's say) 100% and came out of it with 20%. Surely that's the way to do it. If we go in asking for 4.7% then the company will come back with 2% because (unlike Brian) they like to haggle. I should probable omit the words Gilcrest and virtuous from the same sentence as he was caught paying over £1,000 for lunch on his union credit card whilst his comrades were on the picketline (muppet).

As i said before i suggest you ask your base captain to try and arrange a balpa meeting at each base to air your views in person.

As for the 4.7%...we can reject it at ballot still. To do that means that every Balpa member has to vote. Apparently turn out is below 50%. 50% of 180 Balpa members means that 90 people actually vote on the outcome of our payrise.

If you want things to happen then more than 90 out of 300 pilots are going to have to take more of an interest in negociations. As citizen Smith was alluding to.....let's get political!

Excrab,

Agree with all you say.

I do feel a bit guilty that only 1 person volunteered for the CC job out of 300+ ........... but I honestly thought that BALPA & the CC would sort this mess out for us. Now I just feel like a friend has stabbed me in the back.:sad:

To put things in perspective - A very good training Capt. who recently handed his notice in to sit in the right seat with GB was offered a line training position on the 737 to tempt him to stay, he declined this saying he would rather sit in the right seat with GB.

When things get that bad someone needs to step in and point this out to Jim French as I honestly think he is not even aware of it.

It's a shame you are not on the CC :(

Nedul,

I never intended to suggest that any pay deal should ignore F/Os pay on either fleet - I just picked the captains scales as they were the first that I saw on the web site.

As a stalwart Balpa member for years before joining flybe (or JEA as it was) I find it sad that I have to agree about the lack of canvassing of members before the pay deal was put to the company - in fact even now I have seen nothing official from Balpa about what it is although the 4.7% rumour seems to be fairly widespread so must have come from somewhere. However I did hear that the cc were told by management that anything more than this couldn't be considered as they would have to offer the same deal to all employees (ie cabin crew, office and engineers) to avoid being divisive - if that is the right word. They then promptly approved a 30% rise to the cabin crew which might perhaps give grounds for Balpa to go and ask for more.

It would also be interesting to know exactly what Balpa have asked for apart from the money, as they are supposedly negotiating conditions as well as terms - any ideas?

I'm resigning from BALPA too. Hello IPA/IPF.

excrab,

Unfortunately i don't think that's going to be an angle to work from. The Cabin Crew increase was to bring them up to minimum wage!! But it is worth a try!

....and surely Waveman, the fewer the people in Balpa the weaker our position. I joined Balpa a year or so ago and yeah i'm unhappy about the way they've gone about representing us but i don't see the IPA being the way forward. It's taken quite some time to get 60% in the union and it will take even longer for everyone to change to the IPA so where would that leave us in the meantime. Without a voice at all i reckon.

At the moment, it's my humble opinion that Balpa is the lesser of two evils (the IPA isn't the other!) and i'm prepared to take the financial hit of subscription in the hope that we'll make headway in the immediate future.

So Balpa have screwed up, we won't be the first airline that's happened to and we won't be the last. Surely our time would prove more productive by actually taking the time to tell them what we do want......right a letter, have a base meeting whatever it takes to get it right. Let's try and make our investment work.

Getting out of Balpa will only serve to lend power to the Dark side of the force....don't be afraid Luke!

Talking about T & C's .
The Company can knock on the head the "Theft" of our leave days to supplement the 3 days off a month malarky!

Which we are supposed to get anyway and which we have already "given" said days back to the company to facilitate this.

Seems like stealing from Peter to pay Peter.........

Ah well ! looks like more sickies on the Horizon then.........:mad: :

Suggest we put to the vote for a, 4 on 4 off shift.
Which is exactly what Ops, Crewing and Engineering work.

Wouldn't mind 4 consecutive earlies then...................I would have more time to fill in application forms...............................;)

How's this for a start?

******************************

1 - STOP LEAVING BALPA (we need a voice!)

2 - MAKE YOUR COLLEAGUES AWARE OF THIS THREAD AND ENCOURAGE THEM TO PUT IN THEIR 5 PENCE WORTH. (management will be reading this!)

3 - START USING YOUR UNION (they can't make it up!)

4 - CONTACT YOUR BALPA REPS BY EMAIL AND VOICE YOUR DISPLEASURES (they'll relish the chance to do their job. that's why they signed up!)

5 - ACTIVELY ENCOURAGE MEMBERSHIP ON THE FLIGHT DECK. (then we can shout louder!)

*******************************

It can only happen if YOU do something about it!

POWER TO THE PEOPLE

We have some momentum so start peddling now!
V1, Rotate.

VORSPRUNG DURK SPUTNIK

80kts both,

Why should people be encouraged to continue to flog a dead horse.

It is their money and it is their choice where they put it.

Personally I can do allot more with £500 per year than receiving the BALPA log every now and again and letting the CC screw up my terms and conditions.

What we need is another union, BALPA has the monopoly at the moment and they are behaving like most companies in the same position - sitting on their laurels. :mad:

Try working out one day how much money they rake in from this airline alone and you might expect a little more representation than merely saying - " get yourself a CC and we will point you in the right direction but sit on our lazy backsides while we watch you struggle"

I will never be a BALPA member again until I see some much stronger action from BALPA themselves and not from pilots of the airline who call themselves the CC but can be influenced by management in some form or another.:yuk:

Rant over

Citizen Smith,

I knew there was some good in you....the force is strong!

CS is right...it is a good start. Anyone else?

P-J2 fair enough, off you go but i don't see why the rest of us should try and turn the situation around (and thereby possibly improving your T's and C's) when, after a set back, you run. We have to try and turn this around. Wandering off now will ruin the strong position we find ourselves in. With resignations coming in, the company running profits and a new order of Q400's we are in a strong position to negociate. The company realises this. If we all leave Balpa now then that will serve to strengthen their negociating power. Surely its worth one last effort. We have the upperhand for a limited timeframe here, which is until they get all the new 200 hour pilots trained and our roster turbulence becomes minimal. Strike whilst the iron is hot and all that.

We shall fight them on the apron. We shall fight them in the crewrooms. We shall fight them in the hotels and in the boadroom. We shall never surrender. V

Given that over 10% of the Flybe pilots have now resigned; and training and Sim slots are very limited for both fleets, those of us remaining at Flybe now have the best chance ever to insist that the management reward us (and cabin crew) for our "incredible hard work in turning the fortunes of Flybe around".

I am willing to work hard, but only if I am in some way compensated for it. This could be in the form of a proper pay award, more time off, fewer working days on in a row, a forward predictable rosta, or a combination of these 'lifestyle benefits'.

Don't hold your breath folks. Uncle Jim needs nearly half a billion US$ to buy 20 more Dash 8s.
I suppose they'll be crewed by newbies coming off the 146, onto the Dash for a free type rating.
Hell, why not give them the 737 rating and put them on "jet" salaries while we're at it.
:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:
Rant over folks.

Just put yourselves in the position of FlyBe management for a moment.

You have many guys on the Dash willing to fly the 146 at present rates and several thousand willing to replace them.

The industry is depressed and competitors are paying similar amounts.

Why should you pay any more than present?

PD2 your comment about the CC being bought off by the management is one of the most offensive things I have read in a long time. You should come out from behind your pseudonym, produce the evidence to support the allegation or withdraw it.

Puddle Jumper 2

" a captain was offered a line training position on the 737 to make him stay"

Was that on MS Flight SIM ?, as far as i know flybe dont operate the B737 at the mo' .

I wouldnt bet on them operating it or anything similar on their own AOC anytime this year .

I worked for JEA about 8 years ago and all the talk then was of " big jets" and strangely enough the crap pay and rostering.

If you want a change , vote with your feet or get 100% of your guys in to a union / any union .You might persuade J. French to pay attention to you then , although i doubt the Walker family Trust are even remotley interested in your plight.


NF