Emirates or Cathay?
 

Hello,

Pretend you're 32, married, with 1,500 hrs in command of a 737NG and around 5,000 total.

You fancy getting your sweaty paws on a wide body jet and reaping all the so called 'benefits' of a so called 'major'.

With potentially 20+ years service ahead of you, who's gonna look after you best?

Pretend you have narrowed your search to Emirates or Cathay mainline.

Who would you go for?

Discuss :D

Unfortunately you will have to keep on pretending either way!

Good luck!

halas

Hi There,

Very good question indeed.

hmmmm:confused: the anwser well, whoever gave me a job opportunity between them two i guess:ok:

Without having been at either, I would say Emirates.

Now, what are these so-called "benefits" anyhow?

Panama Jack,

By benefits, I mean provident fund or pension, seniority, bidding system etc.

My current low cost employer doesn't really have any good reason to stay, i.e. I will not be any better off in 5, 10 or 20 years.

Yes, I will be in a good position, but maybe having missed out on something 'major'.

Neither. Thought of Dragonair? You'd be a captain quicker than with either of those.

Dragonair???
 

Before you consider Dragonair, think about putting up with chinese ATC just about every time you go flying.....that never ending mandarin chatter in the background will drive you nuts and HKG (polluted, overcrowded and limited spaces) will drive you to drink, divorce and be miserable! I would say Emirates is the way forward and a maximum of 3 years wait for command if you have 20+ years in aviation is not bad. :(

I am with Emirates, been here ten years. Go for Cathay, trust me!

Check Six

Would your wife rather live in Dubai or Hong Kong?

having lived in Abu dhabi , i would go for EK , but i read on this forum somewhere that a cathay FO makes more than an EK captain ??

dont know if true

how long for
 

do U want to get 380ed ... EK .... then you can move to another fleet as the 380 penetrates the world.

living - for me HK - but it depends on what U like and more what the family can live with and wants to live with.

realise that if U don't learn arabic or cantonese/mandarin you will feel out of place at times.

also consider who might be willing to offer you a job as an F/O - its not gods given right fo be left when you start and it could be 10 years before you move across if U are not already rated

just thoughts - good luck whatever you decide

Why would anybody want to get rated on the A380, looks ugly and is flown with a stick taken from a computer games console.

747 will always and I repeat ALWAYS be king of the sky !!

Back to the question: If I had the choice it would be Cathay based in UK (Manchester). Haven`t seen what Dubai is like yet so may change my mind !

Oh boy, the infamous 'stick', and the stories of an instructor that said to the candidates it was like their buddy's di**, they don't want to touch it too much!! One quick candidate said: 'actually in that case I don't want to touch it at all' :O

Thanks guys,

My personal situation is that my wife and I would rather live in Hong Kong than Dubai.

Although we've never been to either, we get the impression that if you don't like Dubai- tough, you either put up with it or leave the company. Cathay, I understand, gives you the option to have a 4 month temp base every year and re-location on upgrade to F/O.

I'm also led to believe that in Dubai, females have much less respect and quality of life than in HK. She certainly won't be happy being locked in a compound sitting by a pool sipping cocktails all day, although understandably, I know this is very attractive to some spouses. For a holiday, maybe, but not ten or even twenty years.

Thanks for the input.

John Milton

Hey John

Dubai is NOT like Saudi. My wife's always out and about - loads to do in Dubai and UAE.

cheers.:ok:

Excuse me?!
 

Ah John,

It was an interesting question, and since I'm in DXB and I've been to HK I was formulating the best I can do at an intelligent reply. There are pro's and con's to both situations and I was about to give my views on the family aspect. Then you post this crap,

"I'm also led to believe that in Dubai, females have much less respect and quality of life than in HK. She certainly won't be happy being locked in a compound sitting by a pool sipping cocktails all day, although understandably, I know this is very attractive to some spouses. For a holiday, maybe, but not ten or even twenty years."

What a moron. This is not a city of "compounds". Since 83% of Dubai are ex-pat, if you put us all in "compounds", it'd be one big jailyard. Furthermore, most of the wives I know here work either full or part-time. As for respect, my wife walks safely and comfortably at night in Dubai. Can you do that in New York?

If you're going to ask a question to gain knowledge, fine. But don't follow-up it up with an ignorant slur. You admit you've never been to either place and you write that?!?!

With your attitude, I'd suggest that both Cathay and EK are off the cards. Stay home.

Bus,

You seem to have taken my last post personally, I apologise for that. It was not intended to be a slur on anyone indivudually or collectively, but I did say "as I have been led to believe..." and that is the truth. I wont apologise for being fed information from this web-site or others.

I know pilots wifes who are actively pushing their husbands to apply to Emirates because they have been on vacation there and loved it. But they have absolutely no intention of looking for work on arrival, just continuing a vacation. Fine, I have no problem with that. But I have been LED TO BELIEVE that the accomodation provided by Emirates is indeed in a compound. If this is incorrect, great, that's what I want to hear. But hey, thats not an attack on anybodys lifestyle out there. I don't know anybody in Emirates or Cathay, that's why I'm posting on here.

Bus Canuck, I've re-read my last post again and again, and I can't see how it offended you so much to bother to make an attack on my personality like that. White Knight certainly isn't as sensitive as you are.

John Milton

OK, I did take it personally because to agree with the "cocktales" statement would be to say that my wife is virtually slotherly. Also, "compound" is a word I associate with a confined, restricted area. It has a negative connotation for me, but maybe that's just my English...Accomodations at EK/Dubai is a huge issue and had been written about in many, many threads. Suffice to say that every villa/flat has good and down sides. For the most part, they are very nice.

Anyway, to your original question, one has to realize that in today's world, these are both excellent jobs. It depends on what's important to you. For example, schooling. (It's excellent in Dubai.) How about your hobbies? I made sure I could pursue my sports before I moved.

EK's package is fairly modest in terms of basic wage, so if the accomadations and other 'perks' don't interest you, CX is better. However, EK is expanding rapidily...

Basically, I think EK is a longer term commitment. CX pays significantly better and you'd be in a better position to leave earlier if you didn't like the ex-pat life.

Sorry I was so abrupt. I thought you were ending your 'research' and had accepted steriotypical conclusions. Your response was well measured and I'll keep my future posts the same!

Cheers

Bus,

Good point about the hobbys. We are looking into that right now. I like sailing and golf, my wife is into horse riding big time. So much so, it would probably be a 'dealbreaker' if she couldn't persue it.

So how did you find Hong Kong? I'm hearing a lot of 'dirty, smelly, and the Chinese people spit on you in the streets'. I find this hard to believe. I hope you can tell me that isn't so.

Thanks,

John Milton

Generally speaking I love the South East Asia area and the lifestyle on offer. You are at the crossroads of the world.

It is also close to my home country (Aust) which has its advantages.

My concerns about EK and DXB is the political/security situation in the area and possible upheaval in neighbouring Saudia Arabia.

Do not loose sight of the fact DXB is in a Muslim country and anything can happen at short notice.

I remember visiting a friend in Tehran in the 1980's who at the time was flying an Australian Airlines A300 on wet lease. Lovely place with happy crews but it all went belly up at short notice.

CX or EK
 

John,
As a relatively new guy to EK I can only give you my first impressions. I managed to get my children into an excellent English school just 5 minutes down the road. Lack of hobbies will certainly not be a factor as there's plenty to do including horseback riding.

Currently there is no airline expanding as rapidly as EK and as you probably already know, it's one of the most profitable. The training is excellent and the pilots come across as a very civilized bunch. Considering the roads previously travelled, there is no place else professionaly that I would rather be right now. Besides there's no SARS or other strange diseases to worry about that seem to crop up from time to time in HK.

Good luck with your choices, but like others who have spoken, I would advise you to apply to both airlines so you can at least keep your options open.

Best regards,

Yardman

Suffice to say that every villa/flat has good and down sides...

Good side: The Villa/Appartment.
Down side: The Accommodation dept! :{

JM.

In Dubai, sailing: 2 good clubs, good conditions, year round sailing with no wet/drysuits.

Golf: Lovely courses but a bit pricey.

Horse riding: Don't know, suspect there's some. I spent a lot of time in Bahrain and you can ride horses there.

And as for Hong Kong. People spitting on you in the streets? The chinese used to spit everywhere, not at white people specificly. But since SARS, spitting in the street is illegal and carries heavy fines. And as the chinese are generally pretty law abiding, there's no spitting now. Personally, I find the HK Chinese fairly friendly to 'gweilos'.

Dirty, smelly? It's not that clean but not necessarily worse than London these days. The smells are all part of the Hong Kong experience. It's also crowded, noisy, busy, and things happen at a fast pace. As far as I'm concerned it's one of the most exciting places in the world. It can be expensive, but housing has gone down in price (some property values have dropped 70% since the handover) and shop prices don't differ much from those in Europe these days.

One things for sure. The Asian aviation market in Asia is the one that's really going to grow. Whether you are a part of it in China or at the 'crossroads of the new world economy' as Dubai bills itself, jump in!

John,

Lot's of horseback riding in Dubai. My buddy has his daughter enrolled in lessons. (You can ride camels too, if so inclined!)

For sure you take a risk moving to a non-democratic country, but keep in mind, HK is also ultimately controlled by a totalitarian state.

HK is very densely populated and therefore suffers from air and noise pollution. Perhaps that's why you were given the impression that it was 'dirty'. Personally, I love the major Asian cities. If fact, I love Bangkok even though that's a truly dirty city!

Getting back to your hobbies, because of the population, I'd think it'd be more difficult to get to ranches and such in HK. Size-wise and lay-out wise, perhaps New-York vs. Las Vegas would be a fair parallel?

Cheers

Thanks guys,

I guess I should have called this topic "Dubai vs Hong Kong" rather than "Emirates vs Cathay".

I heard recently that Cathay has a large union culture whereas Emirates does not. In the States, unions are a big deal. I have watched them do good and bad things for airlines but generally I would prefer a union or at least a well represented pilot body. Not getting off topic, I'm just trying to find a reason for one or the other companys.

Although, it sounds like Emirates haven't suffered without a union, they really have a great package.

Bus Canuck, loved the NY to LV comparison- It really got me thinking. I have also been to Bangkok and really loved it! I found it vibrant and exciting, but the option to chill on fantastic Thai beaches all year round gave it the edge over New York. Las Vegas is great for a vacation but long term, there isn't really much more to it than the strip.

Hmmm, certainly a tough call choosing one over the other, but a problem I wouldn't mind having!

Thanks all,

John Milton

JM.

You might have thought of this, and I apologise if you have, but might it be worth your while taking a holiday in each place with Mrs JM. Arrange to meet a few prooners for a beerio or two, and a guided tour of the cities etc.

Having visited Dubai myself on a couple of occasions I feel that I could live there as much as I could live anywhere. It wouldn't be home as such, but would be a great place to have a life. All the recognisable features are there, plus plenty that make Dubai a uniquely part of the Middle East. There are all the usual amenities of clubs, bars, social clubs, sports clubs, fishing clubs, riding clubs: just pick up a copy of Time Out when you arrive to get the low-down. It seems a pretty good place for children to grow up as well: there are European and American schools and a university if you want them to stay close to hand.

Don't take our word for it: try it for yourself, even if it's only for a week! Good luck whatever you decide.

Space Odyssey...

"747 will always and I repeat ALWAYS be king of the sky !!"

yeah right, that's why they just stopped making them...

JM,

Nice that you are concerned so much about your wife but you are a very large part of the equation and Dubai/EK can be a very frustrating place to be and company to work for.

'havn't suffered much from not having a union', (paraphrased), don't believe it. Qualification for command, accom, pay/allowances are not dicussed but imposed. Still, better than BALPA.

If I knew a few years ago what I know now, I wouldn't have come to EK, though there are others who are happy enough, good luck.

My two cents
 

I would say Cathay is a better choice. Why, well, Dubai is EK's only base. Cathay has many in the US, Europe, and Aust as well as Hong Kong. Cathay and the Asia market will grow as well particularly mainland China as is evidenced in the recent Travel and Leisure magazine.
Cathay just won approval for three mainland China cities as well as the coveted New York-London market which will make it a round the world airline. I don't think anyone else does this anymore?
SARS was/is a bad thing and hopefully won't appear again however, as an American the Middle East is just not realistic for me. I am single, no kids, never even married and I would not go to the ME. I spent time in that part of the world before doing Hadj and Saudi wet lease and frankly don't want to go back. EK flies to a lot of Middle Eastern places, CX does too, but not as many "Hot Spots" as I would call them. I believe the quality of life in the ME would never be as good as HK or Aust or Europe. The ME is and always will be volatile especially for westerners.
As far as pay and "conditions of service" CX hands down. I was stunned when I read the COS. I will probably get blasted for that but it is far better than any, and I mean ANY US carrier and a lot of others as well. Ask yourself what you want to have when it is time to retire. Having a command is great but I think the bigger picture is retirement.
Rapid expansion may not be a good thing, ordering brand spanking new aircraft may not be either. CX is being VERY conservative as is evidenced with the used B747-400's. I think that is smart as the entire world airline industry is on the brink right now. All it will take is a major missle or bombing and game over. The DHL thing got blown by cause it was a freighter, frankly that is scary. If that happens, where would you rather be? In the ME or somewhere else?
Good luck to you.
:}

What´s life in Dubai like for a single guy? One that´s approaching middle age?
(This is a serious question)

That is just about the most unspecific question you couls ask! Be serious yourself and research it. There are plenty of texts about it.

P.

Good one pal!!
 

Yeah!! Take it from a guy "desperately" holding on to bachelor life....

Good luck my friend!

(Keep them four burners turning...)

:cool: Tajfa

I would say Hong Kong (I am in Cathay). Has great nightlife, good social networks and it is NOT all people and neon signs. Most of HK is parks and mountains and if you live on South Lantau for example its beautiful and quiet!

If you join CX mainline you will not be an FO, have you considered that? You would have to join as an SO and wait for the upgrade (2 - 3 years) and you would not get an upgrade on the 744 either. it would be Airbus or 777.

Money is great (CX FO earns a lot more than an EK Skipper), rosters on the ultra long haul fleets are great (4 day pattern followed by 5 days off quite often 6 or 7), Cathay has massive expansion plans and the Union/Management are back in talks - Things look good for CX now but that as you know can change overnight!

Best of luck!

I would say Dubai ( I am in Emirates). Has great nightlife, good social networks and it is NOT all people and neon signs. Most of Dubai is deserts and mountains and beaches- most of it beautiful and quiet.

If you join EK (only line) you will be at least FO - no SO's. And 330/340 or 777.

Money will get better I'm sure - maybe not as much monetarily as CX but HK living costs I believe very much higher than Dubai....CX FO may earn more than EK skipper - for now - but I imagine EK skipper puts far more away for those rare rainy days!!! EK has the BIGGEST expansion plans- puts CX to shame..

Touche Shamen - good luck to you :ok:

Having a pretty good knowledge of both options... one would say:

Second officer wages in Cathay are not far off a skippers wage in EK. A skippers wage in Cathay is nearer three times that of a skipper in EK....

The provident fund in Cathay is much better too... in EK 10 years of service will have only accumulated US$90K... actually less that you have contributed...

Cathay have bases.... Dubai is for life..

Cathay have a union, it might not get its own way all of the time but at least its there, EK change the terms of your contract on a regular basis, and you can do NOTHING about it...

Cathay have a seniority system, EK are employing direct entry Captains on a higher scale than existing captains, and will continue to do so....

short term go EK and get a decent rating they are desperate for drivers at the mo.... that rating may be mighty useful in a couple of years... Medium or long term choice has to be CX...


:ok:

Charlie Hunter I would stay " Up North" if I were you.

White Knight Why would you imagine an EK Captain earning less than a Cathay F/O puts away more for a rainy day then the Cathay F/O??

Perhaps for the same reason you imagine that "the money in EK will get better I am sure??" You do a lot of imagining don't you ??

There is no evidence that EK have any intention of upping the payscales as you "imagine" and so long as people like you turn up in droves then there is no reason to do so.

Yes EK are expanding rapidly so for a short time Upgrades will be there but as EK goes real Long Haul and the ratio of F/O's to Captains increases, then soon, if it has not happened already then there are going to be some very long serving F/O's in EK in the years to come.

One thing which does indeed have to be said - Dubai's beaches are indeed amazing compared to those in HK :) and the water is beautifully warm!

However I would require more from Emirates and Dubai to make me want to spend the rest of my working life there!

Millerscourt - nearly all of your postings revolve around MONEY, yes I agree money is important to a good life but it is NOT everything.

For me it's all about LIFESTYLE, both for me and my family. Maybe you should try it sometime, or is it maybe that YOUR imagination is a little lacking ?:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

White Knight You cannot have LIFESTYLE without MONEY!

Of course MONEY is the main consideration for those considering joining EK as DEC or even as F/O's

Experienced A340 Captains are not going to join EK in large numbers unless the money is improved.

EK have now improved the MONEY to Dhs29435 per month for experienced A340 Captains. This may well bring a few more applications but it certainly won't bring mine as the inconvenience and hassle of moving to DXB is not being rewarded sufficiently.

I think EK should offer say 2-3 year contract jobs at say $12000 per month and then they will get the Pilots they want and you within EK know these DEC's are only here for a short time to give EK a chance to get their act together to promote from within in an orderly fashion.

Hi Millerscourt, would $12000 on a 2-3 yr contract be enough to drag you from Virgin etc. I think not. People join EK for security, career progression, variation in flying, certainly not for money. Money/lifestyle argument, well in some cases they are related but heading to the beach every day whilst at home cost's nothing. Getting the pilot's will not be the biggest headache faced by the management, cabin crew will be. Rgds.