You shall reap what you sow
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You shall reap what you sow
You´re going to reap just what you sow
There can be no doubt that we have a very peculiar system in aviation regarding seniority. If you lose your job, regardless of your level of experience, you will have to start at ground level with your new employer. Only a pilot would accept such a system. It is unique to our profession. Imagine the CEO or General Manager of your airline starting over as a clerk or secretary if he/she were to join the competition.
Despite the fact that only the company benefits from this, pilots have been holding on to this system for decades. Airlines reap the benefits of getting highly qualified employees at minimum wage. Pilots on the other hand gain nothing.
The fear of being bypassed on your list completely eclipses the dramatic consequences of having to start over from scratch when joining a new company. It´s all or nothing.
Working in this industry used to mean fairly steady employment, especially in the government owned and subsidized airlines outside of North America. Lay offs and furloughs were a rarity. Well, things have changed and because of this, new concepts are being discussed, locally and internationally. We´re talking about joint seniority lists.
There is really nothing new to this. The ideas have been raised and rejected. What is different this time is that the industry has changed, and the stakes are not what they used to be. Creating a unified seniority list at any level is not easy. There are many factors to consider, such as seniority, pay scale, pension, level of experience, etc., all of which make a solution seem next to impossible. Never the less: Where there is a will, there is a way.
Joint seniority lists and similar solutions are still in the future. But it is important to let the thought ripen in our collective conscience. It is entirely up to us to find a solution that is both intelligent and practical.
_________________
The above is an editorial lifted from the Norwegian Pilots Association magazine. It has been slightly edited and translated by an amateur.
There can be no doubt that we have a very peculiar system in aviation regarding seniority. If you lose your job, regardless of your level of experience, you will have to start at ground level with your new employer. Only a pilot would accept such a system. It is unique to our profession. Imagine the CEO or General Manager of your airline starting over as a clerk or secretary if he/she were to join the competition.
Despite the fact that only the company benefits from this, pilots have been holding on to this system for decades. Airlines reap the benefits of getting highly qualified employees at minimum wage. Pilots on the other hand gain nothing.
The fear of being bypassed on your list completely eclipses the dramatic consequences of having to start over from scratch when joining a new company. It´s all or nothing.
Working in this industry used to mean fairly steady employment, especially in the government owned and subsidized airlines outside of North America. Lay offs and furloughs were a rarity. Well, things have changed and because of this, new concepts are being discussed, locally and internationally. We´re talking about joint seniority lists.
There is really nothing new to this. The ideas have been raised and rejected. What is different this time is that the industry has changed, and the stakes are not what they used to be. Creating a unified seniority list at any level is not easy. There are many factors to consider, such as seniority, pay scale, pension, level of experience, etc., all of which make a solution seem next to impossible. Never the less: Where there is a will, there is a way.
Joint seniority lists and similar solutions are still in the future. But it is important to let the thought ripen in our collective conscience. It is entirely up to us to find a solution that is both intelligent and practical.
_________________
The above is an editorial lifted from the Norwegian Pilots Association magazine. It has been slightly edited and translated by an amateur.
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I suspect that solution is to be found not here (which is REPORTING POINTS- ie 'RUMOURS & NEWS'). There are other forums for a jolly good chin wag. Now some poor Moderator whose free time is little enough will have to take this thread and deposit it elsewhere just because you want to post something in the wrong place! why don't you be kind and delete it and repost in the right place?
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What is the point of getting rid of one type of seniority system only to replace it with another. Surely it would be better to bring everyone into the 21st Century and operate along the same lines as every other industry.
It strikes me that the main beneficiaries of the present system are the airline managements who know that whenever there is industrial unrest the workers are very unlikely to walk out the door take their extensive skills off to another employer.
It strikes me that the main beneficiaries of the present system are the airline managements who know that whenever there is industrial unrest the workers are very unlikely to walk out the door take their extensive skills off to another employer.
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Interesting article; what is ridiculous about the US is that some pilot groups actually think they're better than others, because of the finiancial condition of their company (which pilots OBVIOUSLY have nothing to do with). I believe the root cause of seniority lists and pilot refusals to impluiment change is because they have a sense of entitlement and don't wish for more experienced, more qualified pilots to displace them if an airline shuts down/merges.
So, in short, its selfish egotism and belligerence over something you feel is yours. A shame.
So, in short, its selfish egotism and belligerence over something you feel is yours. A shame.
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I see no problem with hiring pilots and positioning them according to experience and quality, as long as redundancies are based on time in the company. That way loyalty pays off without unnecessarily punishing pilots who had the misfortune of their company going bust and having to start all over again, regardless of experience.
It is true that the reason for some of our declining T&C is that management are too aware that it is a huge step to leave an emloyer after X years in the company, to start at 0 level in another company. If the grass really does become greener, the bean counters will have to look hard ar comparing the cost of hiring and training new guys every year or improving conditions for the senior staff, so they keep their experience in the company.
It is true that the reason for some of our declining T&C is that management are too aware that it is a huge step to leave an emloyer after X years in the company, to start at 0 level in another company. If the grass really does become greener, the bean counters will have to look hard ar comparing the cost of hiring and training new guys every year or improving conditions for the senior staff, so they keep their experience in the company.
B767300ER,
Lets imagine American Airlines is bankrupt and pays less than 1/2 that SouthWest Airlines for years, but is still hiring primarily due to age 60 retirements. Now imagine a pilot getting hired at AA then a few years later they are bought, (not merged), by Southwest.
If I was that pilot I would hope that my "reality goggles" wouldn't be fogged up enough to realize I shouldn't expect a relative percentage merge of the seniority list. This would be especially true if only a few International routes are retained while the rest are discontinued, along with another commuter carrier other than SWA's pilots operate much of the short haul domestic.
Lets imagine American Airlines is bankrupt and pays less than 1/2 that SouthWest Airlines for years, but is still hiring primarily due to age 60 retirements. Now imagine a pilot getting hired at AA then a few years later they are bought, (not merged), by Southwest.
If I was that pilot I would hope that my "reality goggles" wouldn't be fogged up enough to realize I shouldn't expect a relative percentage merge of the seniority list. This would be especially true if only a few International routes are retained while the rest are discontinued, along with another commuter carrier other than SWA's pilots operate much of the short haul domestic.
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Capt.Lizad, AA will most likely be bankrupt next week. Those pay cuts that APA is negotiating now will be doubled after ch.11 and permanent. If they don't realize they have NO control once AA enters bankruptcy, it will be a sorry mess once it happens. The analysts predict 19,000 furloughs at AA, grounding 80-100 aircraft and base closures. It will be a bloody mess, and if APA had the foresight to negotiate cuts NOW, and possibly help AA stay out of ch.11, then jobs would be saved.
I doubt AA captain pay will go below SWA's, but stranger things have happened. The longer the war, the worse it will be for AA.
I doubt AA captain pay will go below SWA's, but stranger things have happened. The longer the war, the worse it will be for AA.
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reap what you sow
"I believe the root cause of seniority lists and pilot refusals to impluiment change is because they have a sense of entitlement and don't wish for more experienced, more qualified pilots to displace them if an airline shuts down/merges."
Interesting quote from 76er considering your response to my previous post re: EAL and date of hire.
Interesting quote from 76er considering your response to my previous post re: EAL and date of hire.
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I think you will find that any kind of homogeneous world wide seniority system is already dead in the water.
Imagine, if you will, arriving for your final interview with a major carrier, long established etc. You are told that you have got the job, (LH/AF/BA/CX/QF et al), but would you pleae sign this waiver, that you will forgo any rights under a world wide seniority scheme since the outfit you are about to join is long established, has no intention of going bust and in any case looks after it's own with promotions from within, etc. etc. Would you take the job of a lifetime or walk away?
The only place a system such as you suggest might work would be in the lower end of the market, do you think Ryanair, for example, would go for it?
Never forget, as a species , pilots will eat their own young.
Imagine, if you will, arriving for your final interview with a major carrier, long established etc. You are told that you have got the job, (LH/AF/BA/CX/QF et al), but would you pleae sign this waiver, that you will forgo any rights under a world wide seniority scheme since the outfit you are about to join is long established, has no intention of going bust and in any case looks after it's own with promotions from within, etc. etc. Would you take the job of a lifetime or walk away?
The only place a system such as you suggest might work would be in the lower end of the market, do you think Ryanair, for example, would go for it?
Never forget, as a species , pilots will eat their own young.
TC
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We should probably realize that without a seniority system our industry could use the standard tool against organized labour, i.e. firing anyone who even thinks "union" before they manage to do anything.
Seniority is a problem in times of poor economy because it's lost when your airline goes under. This should keep pilots interested in the financial side of the business but sometimes that doesn't seem to work. Current events in the US show that pilots are quite willing to give up a lot to keep their company and their seniority alive.
I doubt that our profession would be where it's now without seniority, and I see that as a positive remark. Without seniority safety would be dominated by beancounters and we'd have premiums and promotions based on "willingness to do overtime", "no diversions" or "no extra fuel taken".
Seniority is a problem in times of poor economy because it's lost when your airline goes under. This should keep pilots interested in the financial side of the business but sometimes that doesn't seem to work. Current events in the US show that pilots are quite willing to give up a lot to keep their company and their seniority alive.
I doubt that our profession would be where it's now without seniority, and I see that as a positive remark. Without seniority safety would be dominated by beancounters and we'd have premiums and promotions based on "willingness to do overtime", "no diversions" or "no extra fuel taken".
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Unions have been made redundant...
Noting the ease with which 70 years of collective bargaining was flushed down the toilet at AA, UA and U recently, what is the point of a union now?
AA management regularly terminates pilots without a hearing--"so sue us" is their refrain.
Hundreds are furloughed at Delta and NWA on the same day that senior management received obscene bonuses. Where was Duane Woerth-less? What are your dues going for? I believe any union worth its salt would have staged a one day walk out over the bonus/furlough issue. The ALPA leaders are more concerned with cocktail hour than protecting their members.
The unions used to be a firewall against management abuse. Now they hold us down while management rapes us.
"Another martini, please--this time with two olives"--the ALPA HQ battle cry.
TC
AA management regularly terminates pilots without a hearing--"so sue us" is their refrain.
Hundreds are furloughed at Delta and NWA on the same day that senior management received obscene bonuses. Where was Duane Woerth-less? What are your dues going for? I believe any union worth its salt would have staged a one day walk out over the bonus/furlough issue. The ALPA leaders are more concerned with cocktail hour than protecting their members.
The unions used to be a firewall against management abuse. Now they hold us down while management rapes us.
"Another martini, please--this time with two olives"--the ALPA HQ battle cry.
TC
Beatings will continue until...
