BA fuel saving Cashback
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 2,339
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From: Tring, UK
The question is, if you do add more, what are you going to do with it at the other end?
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 36
Likes: 66
From: London
I’ve seen on several occasions fuel decisions made with pressure (perceived or actual) by commanders which could have very nearly ended up in a dire scenario airborne with little to no options. It was just fortunate the remaining cheese layers didn’t present.
The issue won’t be the average crew reducing extra fuel carriage on the normal fair weather day. It’s when fatigue, lack of professionalism, lack of experience etc line up on that wrong day, with the wrong weather and someone decides to accept a non suitable alternate to save a bit of ££. “It’s only a prob 30 tempo”
Any, no matter how small, pressure to take less additional fuel will eventually result in an incident or worse.
The issue won’t be the average crew reducing extra fuel carriage on the normal fair weather day. It’s when fatigue, lack of professionalism, lack of experience etc line up on that wrong day, with the wrong weather and someone decides to accept a non suitable alternate to save a bit of ££. “It’s only a prob 30 tempo”
Any, no matter how small, pressure to take less additional fuel will eventually result in an incident or worse.
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 812
Likes: 19
From: uk
extra fuel
I’ve seen on several occasions fuel decisions made with pressure (perceived or actual) by commanders which could have very nearly ended up in a dire scenario airborne with little to no options. It was just fortunate the remaining cheese layers didn’t present.
The issue won’t be the average crew reducing extra fuel carriage on the normal fair weather day. It’s when fatigue, lack of professionalism, lack of experience etc line up on that wrong day, with the wrong weather and someone decides to accept a non suitable alternate to save a bit of ££. “It’s only a prob 30 tempo”
Any, no matter how small, pressure to take less additional fuel will eventually result in an incident or worse.
The issue won’t be the average crew reducing extra fuel carriage on the normal fair weather day. It’s when fatigue, lack of professionalism, lack of experience etc line up on that wrong day, with the wrong weather and someone decides to accept a non suitable alternate to save a bit of ££. “It’s only a prob 30 tempo”
Any, no matter how small, pressure to take less additional fuel will eventually result in an incident or worse.
Joined: Sep 2010
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 884
Likes: 233
From: by the seaside
You've missed the point yet weirdly I think you know what I mean, I'm not looking for a point scoring argument over the nuances of carrying fuel.
I really enjoyed your war story though, it reminded me how much flying has changed since BA flew the Comet.
Hope you're enjoying your retirement and the final salary pension old boy
I really enjoyed your war story though, it reminded me how much flying has changed since BA flew the Comet.
Hope you're enjoying your retirement and the final salary pension old boy
Wasn’t on the comet but gripper and Iron duck before I had enough and left for pastures green.
Lost my license in 94 but was offered an inducement to stop me trying to fight it. Basically suffered from neurotoxins which in hind sight the medical branch knew about but kept stumm on. Certainly enjoyed not sitting in front of an instrument panel for 11 hours in a rarefied and polluted atmosphere.
Wiggy is correct there was a extra fuel league table with persistent offenders being called up to the office..most would write condescending comments on the nav log as to the reason they loaded more.
Taken over a couple of aircraft without final reserve and the worst experience was in the crew bunk when the double crew did a go around, forgetting the gear and not doing a full clean up knowing we had just lost alternate fuel in RIO when ATC had recently managed to plant two airliners in the mountains that surrounded it. They got onto another runway but we didn’t ask but assumed it was we land off this approach regardless.. a lot of alcohol was consumed as the sun rose of copacabana.
Joined: Oct 2002
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 332
Likes: 75
From: Oxford
I can't speak for others but I don’t particularly feel that - it’s more of an encouragement to think a bit about discretionary fuel before arbitrarily adding an amount. On longer sectors, the cost of taking extra rises non-linearly as the airborne time increases. Also, there is a difference between carrying less fuel (nobody is being asked to do that with what is on the flight plan) and not taking as much extra if there aren’t any obvious reasons to load more.
The question is, if you do add more, what are you going to do with it at the other end?
The question is, if you do add more, what are you going to do with it at the other end?
Fuel efficiency courses, anonymous league tables so you can see your relative position, all fine. As you say they encourage you to think if you need that extra fuel.
Creating a financial incentive to carry less fuel, creates a conflict of interest, no matter how you describe it.
BA themselves obviously think it will make a difference, otherwise they wouldn’t be seeking to implement it.
Whether the conflict of interest will affect safety however, remains to be seen. If the scheme successfully reduces discretionary upload, the rewards might be increased, creating a greater safety conflict
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 812
Likes: 19
From: uk
Fuel league tables
I once worked for an outfit that started producing tables of "extra uplift/captain" When we were called in to see the data it was apparent that most were in the 95% of the bell curve however one unlikely captain was way down on his "extras"
It transpired that he was the only one to refuse to do "fuel tankering"! hence his good result!!
It transpired that he was the only one to refuse to do "fuel tankering"! hence his good result!!
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 2,339
Likes: 821
From: Tring, UK
BA themselves obviously think it will make a difference, otherwise they wouldn’t be seeking to implement it.
Whether the conflict of interest will affect safety however, remains to be seen. If the scheme successfully reduces discretionary upload, the rewards might be increased, creating a greater safety conflict
When I first started, I flew with quite a few captains who always loaded a lot more than required and to a youngster it seemed impressive; looking back for many of them it was a comfort blanket that insulated them a lot of the time from actually having to make a decision. Also, making the aeroplane significantly heavier that it needs to be has downsides to it: engines working harder, less choice of cruising levels, increased wear on brakes/tyres, more energy to dissipate in an RTO, etc. It has similarities to people who won’t do intersection takeoffs for purported safety reasons but are quite happy to use derates.
Joined: Oct 2002
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 332
Likes: 75
From: Oxford
Personally it doesn’t? I have no desire to carry any more fuel than I feel necessary to do the job as a) it’s not good for the environment, b) it reduces the profitability of the company I work for and c) it is unprofessional. If I can get paid some of the savings I make through engaging my brain and actively managing the situation, I’m quite OK with that!
As Jet A-1 is hovering around USD 1,500 a tonne at the moment, it would make quite a difference to most companies’ finances, especially if they are not significantly hedged.
Again, I’m not seeing a safety issue, just one of common sense: if every flight took off with minimum fuel, the amount of diversions would very likely increase significantly and thus the overall fuel usage and associated recovery costs. This is not good for anyone and most operators realise this so would not want to incentivise it. All I see is a desire to get their pilots to use some sort of repeatable methodology when deciding on discretionary fuel that takes into account the situation on the day.
When I first started, I flew with quite a few captains who always loaded a lot more than required and to a youngster it seemed impressive; looking back for many of them it was a comfort blanket that insulated them a lot of the time from actually having to make a decision. Also, making the aeroplane significantly heavier that it needs to be has downsides to it: engines working harder, less choice of cruising levels, increased wear on brakes/tyres, more energy to dissipate in an RTO, etc. It has similarities to people who won’t do intersection takeoffs for purported safety reasons but are quite happy to use derates.
As Jet A-1 is hovering around USD 1,500 a tonne at the moment, it would make quite a difference to most companies’ finances, especially if they are not significantly hedged.
Again, I’m not seeing a safety issue, just one of common sense: if every flight took off with minimum fuel, the amount of diversions would very likely increase significantly and thus the overall fuel usage and associated recovery costs. This is not good for anyone and most operators realise this so would not want to incentivise it. All I see is a desire to get their pilots to use some sort of repeatable methodology when deciding on discretionary fuel that takes into account the situation on the day.
When I first started, I flew with quite a few captains who always loaded a lot more than required and to a youngster it seemed impressive; looking back for many of them it was a comfort blanket that insulated them a lot of the time from actually having to make a decision. Also, making the aeroplane significantly heavier that it needs to be has downsides to it: engines working harder, less choice of cruising levels, increased wear on brakes/tyres, more energy to dissipate in an RTO, etc. It has similarities to people who won’t do intersection takeoffs for purported safety reasons but are quite happy to use derates.
But let me put it like this then, would you be happy for the bonus to be linked to not exceeding a certain percentage of go-arounds?
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 2,339
Likes: 821
From: Tring, UK
Great! Don’t want to have contradictions.
Errr, no? But what has that got to do with discretionary fuel carriage or have I missed something?
But let me put it like this then, would you be happy for the bonus to be linked to not exceeding a certain percentage of go-arounds?
Joined: Oct 2002
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 332
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From: Oxford
If a monetary reward doesn’t create a safety issue for fuel planning, why would it create one for go-around decisions?
Joined: Jun 2020
Posts: 183
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From: UK
This whole thing is more about encouraging single engine taxi and mindful APU use. And the scale of the incentive is so small, I doubt it will have any impact at all on final fuel decisions.
Don't forget this is not policy yet. It is a very small part of a wide ranging package that has been put to BA pilots which will be voted on in due course.
Don't forget this is not policy yet. It is a very small part of a wide ranging package that has been put to BA pilots which will be voted on in due course.
Joined: Dec 1998
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 575
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From: UK
You can’t compare the two. No pilot wants to go around - the easy decision is to carry on and land. It’s the opposite with fuel. We’d all instinctively like as much fuel as possibly, and the easy / lazy choice is to add extra for no justifiable reason.
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 954
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From: england
Seems to me that the money involved as an incentive is so small as not to make a difference to anyone’s fuel planning strategy, especially if it is done collectively. What’s the point of flying around on the edge of your seat if everyone else is sticking an extra few tonnes on? I have no doubt that the leadership’s team fuel bonus incentives will be massive though!
It needs to be serious money to incentivise , and that’s where the CAA have historically stepped in. However, it seems to me that there is an element of state capture within the CAA now as many inspectors and staff are ex-BA. They also seem to be perpetually recruiting , whether due to high turnover or lack of applicants due to the salaries involved. It seems many jobs are only feasible if you are drawing a pension already and using a CAA job as a top-up.
It needs to be serious money to incentivise , and that’s where the CAA have historically stepped in. However, it seems to me that there is an element of state capture within the CAA now as many inspectors and staff are ex-BA. They also seem to be perpetually recruiting , whether due to high turnover or lack of applicants due to the salaries involved. It seems many jobs are only feasible if you are drawing a pension already and using a CAA job as a top-up.
Last edited by hunterboy; 1st April 2026 at 08:06.
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 898
Likes: 73
From: UK
This incentive is very small, but it is likely to help reduce unnecessary additional fuel carriage, and at least make people consider reduced engine taxi. It certainly isn’t anywhere near big enough to prevent anyone taking additional fuel if they are in any doubt at all. It also means the company can declare it is doing something further to help reduce CO2 emissions. This in turn, is something which some of our big clients can say about the air transport provider they have selected. People like to think they are doing their bit to save the planet.
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 2,339
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From: Tring, UK
Joined: Oct 2002
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 332
Likes: 75
From: Oxford
You absolutely can compare the two, as both have a safety implication, if monetary reward has no behavioural modifications that affect safety. Then you can’t object to its use in another safety critical area
Joined: Oct 2002
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 332
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From: Oxford
Because I have an input into how much fuel I carry but don’t have any control over whether I get a visual reference at minima or a runway blocked at a late stage? If ATC call for a GA, can I say negative, bonus in play? A GA decision is rule based, pretty black-and-white; fuel carriage over flight plan is more nuanced and affected by a wide range of factors.
Why would you not go-around after an instruction from ATC, or no visual contact at minimums, if a bonus has no influence on your decision making.
Do you have control of the weather? To paraphrase… Are you gonna tell the FO, sorry no extra fuel for the thunderstorms bonus in play
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 2,339
Likes: 821
From: Tring, UK
Why would you not go-around after an instruction from ATC, or no visual contact at minimums, if a bonus has no influence on your decision making.
Do you have control of the weather? To paraphrase… Are you gonna tell the FO, sorry no extra fuel for the thunderstorms bonus in play
One of the points of the exercise is to reduce the routine carriage of discretionary fuel that is very likely not to be needed and for some destinations which are regularly served we have actual data to prove this.
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 69
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From: UK
We are talking about extra fuel loaded at the captain’s discretion here, not what constitutes a legal fuel plan.
The point I’m trying to make (poorly it seems) is that there are some things that can be incentivised, like carrying less discretionary fuel when conditions allow and some things that can’t/shouldn’t because they involve breaking SOPs/law to achieve, like landing below minima.
Which is why we base our decisions on logic and experience. If you identify factors that are likely to increase the fuel burn to the point that the chances of not reaching your destination are significant, then you might need to compensate for that. If things are benign and you have SCF90/95/99 in the plan, then the maths says you are justified in going with that.
One of the points of the exercise is to reduce the routine carriage of discretionary fuel that is very likely not to be needed and for some destinations which are regularly served we have actual data to prove this.
The point I’m trying to make (poorly it seems) is that there are some things that can be incentivised, like carrying less discretionary fuel when conditions allow and some things that can’t/shouldn’t because they involve breaking SOPs/law to achieve, like landing below minima.
Which is why we base our decisions on logic and experience. If you identify factors that are likely to increase the fuel burn to the point that the chances of not reaching your destination are significant, then you might need to compensate for that. If things are benign and you have SCF90/95/99 in the plan, then the maths says you are justified in going with that.
One of the points of the exercise is to reduce the routine carriage of discretionary fuel that is very likely not to be needed and for some destinations which are regularly served we have actual data to prove this.
I’m not BA, and haven’t ever been. But when I started at my company some 10 years ago as a brand new FO on the 737 the culture was very much one of piling on the fuel. 600kg ( 15 ish minutes fuel) would be added on almost routinely.
I actually remember the first time I was flying back to my home base, with a minimum diversion fuel of 2.3T, and the FMC showing that we were going to reach destination with 2.9T. It was the first time I was returning to home base with less than 3T on arrival and at the time I remarked that we were really tight on fuel 🤣
things are a fair bit different now though-and it would seem to the outsider that this incentive is to try and encourage folk who perhaps just pile on 20/30mins extra fuel routinely on a severe CAVOK day to consider reducing the extra