Best choice for my next step
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Best choice for my next step
Evening All,
I have been blessed with a range of opportunities from different airlines. I am currently at a 320 operator on the continent, but eager to come home to the U.K. I’ve been offered positions at BA Euroflyer, Zenon/Virgin(330/350), and Norse UK. It’s certainly not something I am taking for granted, and so I want to be sure I am making the correct choice. I don’t come from an aviation family, and don’t really socialise in aviation circles apart from the small group of friends that I completed training with, not much chance of getting any helpful advice, so alas i’m turning to the wisdom and experience of those on here who know much more than I for some advice.
It’s simple really, which do I go for, or which would you recommend. If you were in this position, where would you go? I know I will get replies such as “do what is best for you”, but quite honestly, as a single male in my mid/late 20’s, I am keen to go for any of the named trio. I know BA and Virgin are hacked to death on here, but Norse isn't so much, and the BAEF thread hasn’t seen much action recently in terms of latest goings on contract-wise.
I know Norse are probably teetering on the edge, but during the interview it was certainly the most relaxed and friendly of the 3, which really stood out to me. However it’s on the 78 and id be joining as an NTR FO which would be fun, but seems to be the reason I am having doubts about it. I also want to still be flying this time next year, which I really hope Norse are, but, you know what I mean. I’ve heard some not so fantastic things about BAEF in terms of rostering, and certainly about some of the management there, but I like to make my own judgement on people and topics. Virgin, well from what I’ve read on the pprune thread, people are actively encouraging others to avoid and go to BA. Long haul does seem attractive, but joining the BA Master list so early is also tempting.
Any advice is always welcome, and if i’m posting in the wrong forum then I apologise, maybe a few too many shandies before posting.
I have been blessed with a range of opportunities from different airlines. I am currently at a 320 operator on the continent, but eager to come home to the U.K. I’ve been offered positions at BA Euroflyer, Zenon/Virgin(330/350), and Norse UK. It’s certainly not something I am taking for granted, and so I want to be sure I am making the correct choice. I don’t come from an aviation family, and don’t really socialise in aviation circles apart from the small group of friends that I completed training with, not much chance of getting any helpful advice, so alas i’m turning to the wisdom and experience of those on here who know much more than I for some advice.
It’s simple really, which do I go for, or which would you recommend. If you were in this position, where would you go? I know I will get replies such as “do what is best for you”, but quite honestly, as a single male in my mid/late 20’s, I am keen to go for any of the named trio. I know BA and Virgin are hacked to death on here, but Norse isn't so much, and the BAEF thread hasn’t seen much action recently in terms of latest goings on contract-wise.
I know Norse are probably teetering on the edge, but during the interview it was certainly the most relaxed and friendly of the 3, which really stood out to me. However it’s on the 78 and id be joining as an NTR FO which would be fun, but seems to be the reason I am having doubts about it. I also want to still be flying this time next year, which I really hope Norse are, but, you know what I mean. I’ve heard some not so fantastic things about BAEF in terms of rostering, and certainly about some of the management there, but I like to make my own judgement on people and topics. Virgin, well from what I’ve read on the pprune thread, people are actively encouraging others to avoid and go to BA. Long haul does seem attractive, but joining the BA Master list so early is also tempting.
Any advice is always welcome, and if i’m posting in the wrong forum then I apologise, maybe a few too many shandies before posting.
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Personally I wouldn’t touch Norse with a barge pole knowing their history, but maybe I’m just overly risk averse… I joined BA last year on the 320 LHR….I’m happy there. More pros than cons for me personally.
I also don’t have family that come from an aviation background and outside of flying none of my hobbies have anything to do with flying …
As for Virgin or Euroflyer I just don’t know enough to comment.
I also don’t have family that come from an aviation background and outside of flying none of my hobbies have anything to do with flying …
As for Virgin or Euroflyer I just don’t know enough to comment.
I work for Norse UK. This winter has been interesting. I was looking elsewhere, last November/December. However, now we have a full summer programme, and much more confidence within, airline has 2 more units (Norway AOC) plus 3 more returning(as of now) end of winter 25, Las Vegas starting September, and a new route to be announced/launched 18th April(UK AOC we think).
Also much more ACMI work next winter, with contracts signed, but not yet announced. We have been doing a stack of ACMI work in Feb/March this year. Company is friendly, you won't find a nicer place to work. I average less than 70 hours/month, although that does vary.
Summer bookings looking very good, according to our CEO.
Some are leaving for BA mainline, if you are young fair enough. RIA may poach a few, but latest "deal" i have seen, maybe not.
EGGW.
Also much more ACMI work next winter, with contracts signed, but not yet announced. We have been doing a stack of ACMI work in Feb/March this year. Company is friendly, you won't find a nicer place to work. I average less than 70 hours/month, although that does vary.
Summer bookings looking very good, according to our CEO.
Some are leaving for BA mainline, if you are young fair enough. RIA may poach a few, but latest "deal" i have seen, maybe not.
EGGW.
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As you are mid-late twenties, I would suggest going with BA euro, you're young so getting your feet in the the door seniority wise is now or never. Once in BA you can have a safe, full career ahead of you with long or shorthaul, as you choose.
Having the option of short or long later on is important as you do not have a clear view of what lifestyle would suit you best in say 10 years, when you may be having a family and priorities may shift.
Virgin is LH only, less safe option, seems like a fun, but woke place.
Norse unproven product at this stage, only long haul. They may have relaxed interviews, but that's perhaps because they have to be to attract people.
I think you know what to do.
Having the option of short or long later on is important as you do not have a clear view of what lifestyle would suit you best in say 10 years, when you may be having a family and priorities may shift.
Virgin is LH only, less safe option, seems like a fun, but woke place.
Norse unproven product at this stage, only long haul. They may have relaxed interviews, but that's perhaps because they have to be to attract people.
I think you know what to do.
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100% go for BAEF. Place on the MSL is valuable, and it will afford you options further down the line in your career.
Using woke as a pejorative term shows a real lack of intelligence.
Being ‘alert to and concerned about social injustice and discrimination’ (the actual definition) will only ever be a positive thing.
Using woke as a pejorative term shows a real lack of intelligence.
Being ‘alert to and concerned about social injustice and discrimination’ (the actual definition) will only ever be a positive thing.
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100% go for BAEF. Place on the MSL is valuable, and it will afford you options further down the line in your career.
Using woke as a pejorative term shows a real lack of intelligence.
Being ‘alert to and concerned about social injustice and discrimination’ (the actual definition) will only ever be a positive thing.
Using woke as a pejorative term shows a real lack of intelligence.
Being ‘alert to and concerned about social injustice and discrimination’ (the actual definition) will only ever be a positive thing.
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I'm old and retired. but the same rules applied 30 years ago, unless you have compelling reasons not to, BA is the only logical choice. If you don't like it, it is a lot easier to 'step downwards' in 10years or so. I have a friend work for EF and he works hard at the bottom of the seniority list.
From peeps I know still working VS isn't the silly fun it once was, but a worthy alternative if LH is your ultimate lifestyle choice. Remember it might not be when your social life is different.
Norse is probably the most fun, but will give you sleepless nights unless you want to be one of the many non-conformist pilots changing jobs every few years. You'd need to get a command here for any sense of security.
From peeps I know still working VS isn't the silly fun it once was, but a worthy alternative if LH is your ultimate lifestyle choice. Remember it might not be when your social life is different.
Norse is probably the most fun, but will give you sleepless nights unless you want to be one of the many non-conformist pilots changing jobs every few years. You'd need to get a command here for any sense of security.
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With your experience you should not be contemplating EF. Hold out for mainline where the terms and conditions are much better. If this doesn’t materialise, I would certainly entertain going to virgin for a year or two, getting some heavy hours, then coming to BA as DEP LH.
I’m another old and retired one but I agree with almost all the above.
If the eventual intent is BA Longhaul I certainly don’t see the logic of delaying getting a foot on the BA MSL by going off to Virgin for a while just to get a few heavy hours in with a plan of hopefully, eventually, slotting into the bottom of the BA seniority list, hopefully, eventually, perhaps as a LH DEP in a year or two’s time,,,
Getting the earliest Date of Joining you can is unbelievably important at BA, most especially during periods of high recruitment.
If the eventual intent is BA Longhaul I certainly don’t see the logic of delaying getting a foot on the BA MSL by going off to Virgin for a while just to get a few heavy hours in with a plan of hopefully, eventually, slotting into the bottom of the BA seniority list, hopefully, eventually, perhaps as a LH DEP in a year or two’s time,,,
Getting the earliest Date of Joining you can is unbelievably important at BA, most especially during periods of high recruitment.
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I’m another old and retired one but I agree with almost all the above.
If the eventual intent is BA Longhaul I certainly don’t see the logic of delaying getting a foot on the BA MSL by going off to Virgin for a while just to get a few heavy hours in with a plan of hopefully, eventually, slotting into the bottom of the BA seniority list, hopefully, eventually, perhaps as a LH DEP in a year or two’s time,,,
Getting the earliest Date of Joining you can is unbelievably important at BA, most especially during periods of high recruitment.
If the eventual intent is BA Longhaul I certainly don’t see the logic of delaying getting a foot on the BA MSL by going off to Virgin for a while just to get a few heavy hours in with a plan of hopefully, eventually, slotting into the bottom of the BA seniority list, hopefully, eventually, perhaps as a LH DEP in a year or two’s time,,,
Getting the earliest Date of Joining you can is unbelievably important at BA, most especially during periods of high recruitment.
MSL, get your bid in and you’ll be flying LH in a few years with a markedly better roster than someone who waited for a DEP LH position down the line.
Then you’ll get bored and come and join the LHR SH fleet
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With your experience you should not be contemplating EF. Hold out for mainline where the terms and conditions are much better. If this doesn’t materialise, I would certainly entertain going to virgin for a year or two, getting some heavy hours, then coming to BA as DEP LH.
However, quite shocked to read the later bit of advice re going to Virgin, and crossing your fingers for LH offer a few years down the road at BA. As per all the above - if you're going to join BA, get your name on the MSL as soon as possible.
Wokeness, behind a gentle definition, is a machine designed for attacking other people (people viewed as being "privileged", who are the target of this ideology)
However, all companies nowadays except maybe very small ones have become more or less woke.
Even my own airline had to publish a guide for analysing religious behaviors at work.
One pilot, mid flight, turns the aircraft due east and starts praying. Or starts praying without turning the aircraft.
What should the company think about that ? It's all described in this book.
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Bearing in mind the current geopolitical situation of the world, is another factor the OP should seriously consider. In spite of setbacks like Covid and UK economic upheaval, the UK pilot and global job market ha been very healthy in recent years. This will not always be the case as it is a cyclical business plus extremely vulnerable to international shocks. Hiring feasts rapidly turn to famine with little warning, as they did during my career. Literally who knows what effect on aviation hires a serious spat in the middle east would cause. Again, looking backwards over 30y only BA have avoided serious job losses and most of those affected back in the 70,80 90's were later picked up if they wanted. Other brands are just footnotes in history, BCAL, BMI, Air Europe, Thom. Cook. Big today, gone tomorrow.
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Can only speak for EF:
Cons:
Like I said, can only speak for EF, this was the case when I left a few months back. The only benefit I could see to going would be as mentioned above, getting an early place on the MSL, but there’s a high turnover, from LHS in particular, the mostly cadet/wizz FOs are more willing to sit through this nonsense for years.
I hope things are different nowadays.
Cons:
- Airline is painfully under crewed.
- Prepare to fly up to 6 days in a row starting with earlies ending in nights followed 2 off, 3 if you’re lucky.
- 10 days off per month but realistically this will be the maximum you’ll get.
- Pretty bad salary and conditions for the workload and expectations placed on us.
- Fatiguing workload with poor/badly worded company scheduling agreements
- You will work to the maximum as allowed per Core flight time limitations.
- Regular roster changes to the published schedule with no rhyme or reason. Often changing earlies to lates and vice versa so often you won’t have much chance to plan your life ahead.
- 11 hour home standbys so you might find your 0600 HSBY turning into a 2100 or later off duty time, thus knocking out the rest of your week.
- Bidding system is flawed.
- Home every night, no nightstops
- Friendly colleagues
- If you’re willing to wait 5/6 years, LHR opportunities will be down the road.
- Lots of opportunity for overtime if you’re desperate to fly, but the payments aren’t the best and generally aren’t worth it.
Like I said, can only speak for EF, this was the case when I left a few months back. The only benefit I could see to going would be as mentioned above, getting an early place on the MSL, but there’s a high turnover, from LHS in particular, the mostly cadet/wizz FOs are more willing to sit through this nonsense for years.
I hope things are different nowadays.
Macdo's point is very valid - aviation is a fickle business dependent on World economies and stability. When bad times come or seem to be coming people cut down on luxuries (inc travel), when things improve they are slow to resume those luxuries. When I joined JMC (itself a merger) in 2000 there were 5 'charter' airlines - JMC, Airtours, Monarch, Air2000, Britannia. Jet2 didn't exist, but now there's TUI and Jet2.
I take issue with only one thing - "only BA have avoided serious job losses". There's a UK airline out there with 500+ pilots, 25+ ac with global reach which has never laid anyone off or furloughed anyone in its 24 years of existence and has picked up multiple Flybe, Monarch, TCX, Virgin, Cathay, ME3 refugees!
I know nothing about BA other than if you want to be there, early seems to be better than late.
Rgds
I take issue with only one thing - "only BA have avoided serious job losses". There's a UK airline out there with 500+ pilots, 25+ ac with global reach which has never laid anyone off or furloughed anyone in its 24 years of existence and has picked up multiple Flybe, Monarch, TCX, Virgin, Cathay, ME3 refugees!
I know nothing about BA other than if you want to be there, early seems to be better than late.
Rgds
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I'm not au fait with how things are at EF, but I'll proffer some thoughts on BA as an option for someone in your position. Ultimately, if you see it as somewhere you'd like to end up in the long run then it would be sensible to get on the list as soon as possible. That will give you the most options in terms of being able to pick, in a few years, between day trips from LGW, tours from LHR, beers on the beech and nights out of bed on a LH fleet, or going after a SH command at the earliest opportunity. In that vein its probably worth thinking about where in the UK you want to live, how far that is from the respective bases and whether that might change in the future.
From your comments, you seem to value the "vibe" you sensed at the Norse interview. There isn't a whole lot of "vibe" at BA. You, and only you, will be responsible for garnering the satisfaction you take from your worklife. While the small base of LGW might offer some sense of community (as it certainly used to pre EF) it is a largely anonymous place. No one will take any interest in motivating, inspiring or leading you, or even what you do - unless you do something wrong, in which case every interaction between you and the company will be recorded and examined. You will not have any sort or working relationship with your so called manager. Some thrive in this autonomous environment.
Things you haven't mentioned that might influence my decision if I were a mid 20's single person - Staff travel. How do you plan to spend your leave? If being able to get yourself to places like CPT, GIG, YVR, SIN or SYD for not very much money and stand a fighting chance of getting on the plane are of interest to you, then its a valuable perk.
Other things that you might not be considering right now but that you might wish you had - Pension contributions on offer. Its boring, but its important. At BA you can put in up to 6% and BA will pay 15%. I've no idea how this compares to others. The other elephant in the room is loss of income protection. Some of us think it will never happen to us - but for some it does. Again I don't know about other airlines but it really should feature in the comparison.
From your comments, you seem to value the "vibe" you sensed at the Norse interview. There isn't a whole lot of "vibe" at BA. You, and only you, will be responsible for garnering the satisfaction you take from your worklife. While the small base of LGW might offer some sense of community (as it certainly used to pre EF) it is a largely anonymous place. No one will take any interest in motivating, inspiring or leading you, or even what you do - unless you do something wrong, in which case every interaction between you and the company will be recorded and examined. You will not have any sort or working relationship with your so called manager. Some thrive in this autonomous environment.
Things you haven't mentioned that might influence my decision if I were a mid 20's single person - Staff travel. How do you plan to spend your leave? If being able to get yourself to places like CPT, GIG, YVR, SIN or SYD for not very much money and stand a fighting chance of getting on the plane are of interest to you, then its a valuable perk.
Other things that you might not be considering right now but that you might wish you had - Pension contributions on offer. Its boring, but its important. At BA you can put in up to 6% and BA will pay 15%. I've no idea how this compares to others. The other elephant in the room is loss of income protection. Some of us think it will never happen to us - but for some it does. Again I don't know about other airlines but it really should feature in the comparison.
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Macdo's point is very valid - aviation is a fickle business dependent on World economies and stability. When bad times come or seem to be coming people cut down on luxuries (inc travel), when things improve they are slow to resume those luxuries. When I joined JMC (itself a merger) in 2000 there were 5 'charter' airlines - JMC, Airtours, Monarch, Air2000, Britannia. Jet2 didn't exist, but now there's TUI and Jet2.
I take issue with only one thing - "only BA have avoided serious job losses". There's a UK airline out there with 500+ pilots, 25+ ac with global reach which has never laid anyone off or furloughed anyone in its 24 years of existence and has picked up multiple Flybe, Monarch, TCX, Virgin, Cathay, ME3 refugees!
I know nothing about BA other than if you want to be there, early seems to be better than late.
Rgds
I take issue with only one thing - "only BA have avoided serious job losses". There's a UK airline out there with 500+ pilots, 25+ ac with global reach which has never laid anyone off or furloughed anyone in its 24 years of existence and has picked up multiple Flybe, Monarch, TCX, Virgin, Cathay, ME3 refugees!
I know nothing about BA other than if you want to be there, early seems to be better than late.
Rgds