Command Upgrade Seniority
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Command Upgrade Seniority
Is it normal for an airline to strip FOs of their seniority after successfully completing a command upgrade program? Is this a common practice? I know of a company that does this with the rationale that "you are now an inexperienced captain" so you deserve to start at the bottom. I think it's ridiculous. Thoughts?
Is it normal for an airline to strip FOs of their seniority after successfully completing a command upgrade program? Is this a common practice? I know of a company that does this with the rationale that "you are now an inexperienced captain" so you deserve to start at the bottom. I think it's ridiculous. Thoughts?
Any other job, you get a promotion, you’re starting at the bottom.
Yes flying differs from other jobs in that it’s rarely a meritocracy. But, ultimately, if you don’t like it go and fly for someone else.
Last edited by VariablePitchP; 5th May 2023 at 06:31.
Is it normal for an airline to strip FOs of their seniority after successfully completing a command upgrade program? Is this a common practice? I know of a company that does this with the rationale that "you are now an inexperienced captain" so you deserve to start at the bottom. I think it's ridiculous. Thoughts?
I would have expected that as a senior FO moving to the LHS you'll be at the bottom of the captain seniority because it's a different (and more senior) list.
can you explain the mechanism?
So in such companies it is possible to hang out as a P2 for umpteen years, do an upgrade in your own sweet time and then slot onto the P1 list above any captain who has done less time in the company.
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Is it normal for an airline to strip FOs of their seniority after successfully completing a command upgrade program? Is this a common practice? I know of a company that does this with the rationale that "you are now an inexperienced captain" so you deserve to start at the bottom. I think it's ridiculous. Thoughts?
My point is that seniority doesn't necessarily have anything to do with flying, skills, promotion, etc... Flying and being in command of an airplane is a position of trust, and how that trust is given to a certain pilot pretty much depends on each airline. So, your question may make sense to you, but doesn't make any to me... Just enjoy working there until you don't, and then leave.
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At some airlines your position on whatever status list you are on simply depends on company seniority - determined by Date of Joining the company. That obviously doesn’t change when moving seats.
So in such companies it is possible to hang out as a P2 for umpteen years, do an upgrade in your own sweet time and then slot onto the P1 list above any captain who has done less time in the company.
So in such companies it is possible to hang out as a P2 for umpteen years, do an upgrade in your own sweet time and then slot onto the P1 list above any captain who has done less time in the company.
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At some airlines your position on whatever status list you are on simply depends on company seniority - determined by Date of Joining the company. That obviously doesn’t change when moving seats.
So in such companies it is possible to hang out as a P2 for umpteen years, do an upgrade in your own sweet time and then slot onto the P1 list above any captain who has done less time in the company.
So in such companies it is possible to hang out as a P2 for umpteen years, do an upgrade in your own sweet time and then slot onto the P1 list above any captain who has done less time in the company.
So unsurprisingly, the direct entry pilots who had been expropriated, are now leaving in huge numbers, - not always just because they now have cadet seat/base bidders (the majority of recruits) sliding across on to the list above them, but also the principle of the thing - namely that the experience they brought with them; thereby isn't valued.
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The experience you had was valued, especially if you were hired as dec, and paid as such. But I don’t see why you should get priority for a base over a longer serving FO that has been waiting for years for his name to reach the top of that base list.
That has nothing to do with your previous experience, but more to do with company time.
The truth is that we dont care about fairness, we all want the system that gives us what we want, even if it disadvantage everyone else. You will never make everyone happy anyway.
That has nothing to do with your previous experience, but more to do with company time.
The truth is that we dont care about fairness, we all want the system that gives us what we want, even if it disadvantage everyone else. You will never make everyone happy anyway.
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Paid as such? That was only ever barely adequate, and during and after covid, became inadequate; it's an increasingly competitive market for experience, and Ryanair in particular is severely light on total experience in the cockpit - totalling about five years airline experience summed between BOTH of them not unusual. But you're right, people just vote in their own narrow interests (or disinterests), even if it ***s other people (a bit like brexit).
Ryanair key competitors; easyJet, jet 2 etc etc do not do carry over of RHS service in bidding rights - ask yourself why!
Ryanair key competitors; easyJet, jet 2 etc etc do not do carry over of RHS service in bidding rights - ask yourself why!
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Paid as such? That was only ever barely adequate, and during and after covid, became inadequate; it's an increasingly competitive market for experience, and Ryanair in particular is severely light on total experience in the cockpit - totalling about five years airline experience summed between BOTH of them not unusual. But you're right, people just vote in their own narrow interests (or disinterests), even if it ***s other people (a bit like brexit).
Ryanair key competitors; easyJet, jet 2 etc etc do not do carry over of RHS service in bidding rights - ask yourself why!
Ryanair key competitors; easyJet, jet 2 etc etc do not do carry over of RHS service in bidding rights - ask yourself why!
I agree you should be paid more, especially for the amount of work you guys do.
As for the competitors, easyJet has the same system, FOs put their name on the Captains transfer lists early on when they reach a certain experience, and often decide to upgrade when close to the top, to avoid transfers, if they so wish.
DECs are based where there are vacancies and no FOs with the required hours or that cannot be ready on time.
A DEC that wants to be based in one of the popular bases have to wait as much as 5/6/7 years, with plenty of FOs ahead of him/her.
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you should be paid more, especially for the amount of work you guys do.
easyJet are not the same - the pilot is close to command to be able to bid on a separate P1 list and doesn't carry over JFO time, unless it has changed). So as you describe it now, who would want to join as Ryanair DEP now? = lower quality pilot, and/or higher price ... So instead, the operational inbreeding of the predominant cadets, and ex cadets, training cadets, going on to train ad infinitum - leading to some very strange aircraft handling practices IMO (but stick to parroting the SOPs word perfect, Uber alles, and all's good)!
Last edited by midnight cruiser; 6th May 2023 at 15:10.
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Not me;, I was grossly insulted that the CC DID retrospectively value my 25 years prior experience at zero (in terms of bidding/seniority, and any valuing you claim beyond that is just empty platitudes)... The pay was ok, then having been expropriated - it wasn't - so I left.
easyJet are not the same - the pilot is close to command to be able to bid on a separate P1 list and doesn't carry over JFO time, unless it has changed). So as you describe it now, who would want to join as Ryanair DEP now? = lower quality pilot, and/or higher price ... So instead, the operational inbreeding of the predominant cadets, and ex cadets, training cadets, going on to train ad infinitum - leading to some very strange aircraft handling practices IMO (but stick to parroting the SOPs word perfect, Uber alles, and all's good)!
easyJet are not the same - the pilot is close to command to be able to bid on a separate P1 list and doesn't carry over JFO time, unless it has changed). So as you describe it now, who would want to join as Ryanair DEP now? = lower quality pilot, and/or higher price ... So instead, the operational inbreeding of the predominant cadets, and ex cadets, training cadets, going on to train ad infinitum - leading to some very strange aircraft handling practices IMO (but stick to parroting the SOPs word perfect, Uber alles, and all's good)!
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Absolutely. But when it becomes a substitute ....
(not saying that it is, not saying that it isn't, and don't want to digress down this sop path anyway - this is about upgrade seniority).
(not saying that it is, not saying that it isn't, and don't want to digress down this sop path anyway - this is about upgrade seniority).
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Not me;, I was grossly insulted that the CC DID retrospectively value my 25 years prior experience at zero (in terms of bidding/seniority, and any valuing you claim beyond that is just empty platitudes)... The pay was ok, then having been expropriated - it wasn't - so I left.
easyJet are not the same - the pilot is close to command to be able to bid on a separate P1 list and doesn't carry over JFO time, unless it has changed). So as you describe it now, who would want to join as Ryanair DEP now? = lower quality pilot, and/or higher price ... So instead, the operational inbreeding of the predominant cadets, and ex cadets, training cadets, going on to train ad infinitum - leading to some very strange aircraft handling practices IMO (but stick to parroting the SOPs word perfect, Uber alles, and all's good)!
easyJet are not the same - the pilot is close to command to be able to bid on a separate P1 list and doesn't carry over JFO time, unless it has changed). So as you describe it now, who would want to join as Ryanair DEP now? = lower quality pilot, and/or higher price ... So instead, the operational inbreeding of the predominant cadets, and ex cadets, training cadets, going on to train ad infinitum - leading to some very strange aircraft handling practices IMO (but stick to parroting the SOPs word perfect, Uber alles, and all's good)!
Not me;, I was grossly insulted that the CC DID retrospectively value my 25 years prior experience at zero (in terms of bidding/seniority, and any valuing you claim beyond that is just empty platitudes)... The pay was ok, then having been expropriated - it wasn't - so I left.
easyJet are not the same - the pilot is close to command to be able to bid on a separate P1 list and doesn't carry over JFO time, unless it has changed). So as you describe it now, who would want to join as Ryanair DEP now? = lower quality pilot, and/or higher price ... So instead, the operational inbreeding of the predominant cadets, and ex cadets, training cadets, going on to train ad infinitum - leading to some very strange aircraft handling practices IMO (but stick to parroting the SOPs word perfect, Uber alles, and all's good)!
easyJet are not the same - the pilot is close to command to be able to bid on a separate P1 list and doesn't carry over JFO time, unless it has changed). So as you describe it now, who would want to join as Ryanair DEP now? = lower quality pilot, and/or higher price ... So instead, the operational inbreeding of the predominant cadets, and ex cadets, training cadets, going on to train ad infinitum - leading to some very strange aircraft handling practices IMO (but stick to parroting the SOPs word perfect, Uber alles, and all's good)!
I worked for a company that hired a lot of DECs during growth, a surprising amount of those were let go because of their "aircraft handling practices". Much safer to work with the people you know when it is time to upgrade.....
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Your previous experience should not count for anything except maybe salary when you start over at another airline (and I am against even that ). Sure, it seems unfair to have to start at the bottom, but that is nowhere near as unfair as being at a company for years and having other people come in and take your slot. And I firmly believe DECs should only happen as a last resort. Seniority should apply to everything. And I have had to start over at the bottom twice after years as a captain. Just my opinion.
I worked for a company that hired a lot of DECs during growth, a surprising amount of those were let go because of their "aircraft handling practices". Much safer to work with the people you know when it is time to upgrade.....
I worked for a company that hired a lot of DECs during growth, a surprising amount of those were let go because of their "aircraft handling practices". Much safer to work with the people you know when it is time to upgrade.....
And that's why the market is what it is nowadays - such approach is killing the best negotiation technique - voting with everyone's feet. The management is well aware that people won't leave because there's nowhere else to go without losing.
As a result of that, after a few years it's getting harder and harder for anybody to leave their current employer, because even if you leave a crappy airline for one of the best, you will be stuck at the bottom for many years: earning less than before, flying the worst duties, endlessly commuting to the most inconvenient base .
And that's why the market is what it is nowadays - such approach is killing the best negotiation technique - voting with everyone's feet. The management is well aware that people won't leave because there's nowhere else to go without losing.
And that's why the market is what it is nowadays - such approach is killing the best negotiation technique - voting with everyone's feet. The management is well aware that people won't leave because there's nowhere else to go without losing.
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That Marxist nonsense contradicts basic economic theory.
Restrict the movement of labour and it's price (pay) goes down. Conversely, if pilots can freely come and go, pay and working conditions have to be market leading, or their planes will suddenly be sitting grounded. Pilots can huff and puff, but ultimately they have very little influence over pay, especially if the employer knows they won't leave. [Hint - how much better did Ryanair get, after introducing a seniority list? - answers on a postcard]!!
As for DEC, it seems pretty rare in the west, and the cases I know of have only involved companies adding lots of planes in a hurry, so the"slot" is essentially a new one. Rapid expansion also creates training capacity limitations, limiting ability to purely do upgrades, and also train the FO replacement. Then there's also the situation when there are no upgradable FOs left.
For the employer, the flip side of being able to pay less to their current pilots trapped by seniority, is that to attract experienced new recruits, they would have to pay more, to offset the extreme unattractiveness of being at the bottom of a seniority list.
Restrict the movement of labour and it's price (pay) goes down. Conversely, if pilots can freely come and go, pay and working conditions have to be market leading, or their planes will suddenly be sitting grounded. Pilots can huff and puff, but ultimately they have very little influence over pay, especially if the employer knows they won't leave. [Hint - how much better did Ryanair get, after introducing a seniority list? - answers on a postcard]!!
As for DEC, it seems pretty rare in the west, and the cases I know of have only involved companies adding lots of planes in a hurry, so the"slot" is essentially a new one. Rapid expansion also creates training capacity limitations, limiting ability to purely do upgrades, and also train the FO replacement. Then there's also the situation when there are no upgradable FOs left.
For the employer, the flip side of being able to pay less to their current pilots trapped by seniority, is that to attract experienced new recruits, they would have to pay more, to offset the extreme unattractiveness of being at the bottom of a seniority list.
Last edited by midnight cruiser; 7th May 2023 at 10:11.
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Is it normal for an airline to strip FOs of their seniority after successfully completing a command upgrade program? Is this a common practice? I know of a company that does this with the rationale that "you are now an inexperienced captain" so you deserve to start at the bottom. I think it's ridiculous. Thoughts?
The ideal condition for an airline is to avoid the need to hire DECs tout court, as this means the quality of the training is good, the operational, network, strategy and training plannings are optimized to the Operations. Yes you might hire Direct Entry Managers that you "stole" from other Operators and whom are also pilots and will be based in the Airline main hub, but this is a different story as it's head hunting and happens in all industries.
Now if an airline still needs to hire DECs for whatever reason (new base openings usually and/or rapid expansion) they will of course be pissed off to sit at the bottom of the seniority list as soon as a long time serving FO upgrades and bypasses them. On the other hand if you put newly upgraded FOs at the bottom of the seniority list they will be pissed off to see their long time commitment to the airline is not adequately considered and this will undoubtedly create issues with unions (if there any) and possibly other operational issues in terms of CRM with DECs that are "taking their slot" in their favorite base.
There is no right or wrong scenario in my opinion. Every FO wishes to upgrade sooner or later in accordance with their capabilities and wishes to live in a certain place. On the other hand if you find yourself in the need to fill the gaps by hiring DECs and you want quality people, it is unlikely that you will be able to attract those guys without a good package including an acceptable base and the chance to transfer to their preferred base in a decent amount of time.
That Marxist nonsense contradicts basic economic theory.
Restrict the movement of labour and it's price (pay) goes down. Conversely, if pilots can freely come and go, pay and working conditions have to be market leading, or their planes will suddenly be sitting grounded. Pilots can huff and puff, but ultimately they have very little influence over pay, especially if the employer knows they won't leave. [Hint - how much better did Ryanair get, after introducing a seniority list? - answers on a postcard]!!
As for DEC, it seems pretty rare in the west, and the cases I know of have only involved companies adding lots of planes in a hurry, so the"slot" is essentially a new one. Rapid expansion also creates training capacity limitations, limiting ability to purely do upgrades, and also train the FO replacement. Then there's also the situation when there are no upgradable FOs left.
For the employer, the flip side of being able to pay less to their current pilots trapped by seniority, is that to attract experienced new recruits, they would have to pay more, to offset the extreme unattractiveness of being at the bottom of a seniority list.
Restrict the movement of labour and it's price (pay) goes down. Conversely, if pilots can freely come and go, pay and working conditions have to be market leading, or their planes will suddenly be sitting grounded. Pilots can huff and puff, but ultimately they have very little influence over pay, especially if the employer knows they won't leave. [Hint - how much better did Ryanair get, after introducing a seniority list? - answers on a postcard]!!
As for DEC, it seems pretty rare in the west, and the cases I know of have only involved companies adding lots of planes in a hurry, so the"slot" is essentially a new one. Rapid expansion also creates training capacity limitations, limiting ability to purely do upgrades, and also train the FO replacement. Then there's also the situation when there are no upgradable FOs left.
For the employer, the flip side of being able to pay less to their current pilots trapped by seniority, is that to attract experienced new recruits, they would have to pay more, to offset the extreme unattractiveness of being at the bottom of a seniority list.