British Airways Direct Entry Pilot
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 122
Likes: 27
From: World
I had a look through the recent iteration of the bid result. The most junior successful 320 Command bid for someone coming from a long haul fleet is 4 training years complete within the company - which is the standard pre-command freeze. So for this year, as far as I can see - no one has been released from a long haul fleet early, to take up a short haul command.
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 112
Likes: 7
From: Neverland
I had a look through the recent iteration of the bid result. The most junior successful 320 Command bid for someone coming from a long haul fleet is 4 training years complete within the company - which is the standard pre-command freeze. So for this year, as far as I can see - no one has been released from a long haul fleet early, to take up a short haul command.
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 123
Likes: 9
From: UK
PP2 (earliest command)
Mainline P1 SH:
Basic - £95,279
Allowances - £24,000 (based on £2,000/month average).
Pension (15% BA) - £14,301
Total = £133,580
PP12
Mainline P1 SH:
Basic - £120,435
Allowances - £24,000
Pension (15% BA) - £20,454
Total = £164,889
___________________
EZY P1:
Basic - £117,000
Allowances - £20,000 (slightly less than BA?)
Pension (7% EZY) - £8,190
15% Loyalty - £17,550
Total = £162,740
Now comes the rumoured 15% for EZY (minimum, yet to be accepted, 2024).
EZY P1 (new pay deal, inc 12.5% & 2.25%):
Basic - £131,625
Allowances - £23,000
Pension (7% EZY) - £9,213
15% Loyalty - £19,744
Total = £183,282
Equivalent BA Pay Point (including planned pay rises to Year End 2024):
PP16
Basic - £136,432
Allowances - £25,000
Pension (15% BA) - £25,623
Total = £187,055
A few notes...
- EZY pay deal is far from accepted (likely not)
- BA rumours of adjustment to pay scales due to recruitment issues
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 898
Likes: 73
From: UK
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 2,731
Likes: 53
From: World
Some actual current figures if it helps;
PP2 (earliest command)
Mainline P1 SH:
Basic - £95,279
Allowances - £24,000 (based on £2,000/month average).
Pension (15% BA) - £14,301
Total = £133,580
PP12
Mainline P1 SH:
Basic - £120,435
Allowances - £24,000
Pension (15% BA) - £20,454
Total = £164,889
___________________
EZY P1:
Basic - £117,000
Allowances - £20,000 (slightly less than BA?)
Pension (7% EZY) - £8,190
15% Loyalty - £17,550
Total = £162,740
Now comes the rumoured 15% for EZY (minimum, yet to be accepted, 2024).
EZY P1 (new pay deal, inc 12.5% & 2.25%):
Basic - £131,625
Allowances - £23,000
Pension (7% EZY) - £9,213
15% Loyalty - £19,744
Total = £183,282
Equivalent BA Pay Point (including planned pay rises to Year End 2024):
PP16
Basic - £136,432
Allowances - £25,000
Pension (15% BA) - £25,623
Total = £187,055
A few notes...
- EZY pay deal is far from accepted (likely not)
- BA rumours of adjustment to pay scales due to recruitment issues
PP2 (earliest command)
Mainline P1 SH:
Basic - £95,279
Allowances - £24,000 (based on £2,000/month average).
Pension (15% BA) - £14,301
Total = £133,580
PP12
Mainline P1 SH:
Basic - £120,435
Allowances - £24,000
Pension (15% BA) - £20,454
Total = £164,889
___________________
EZY P1:
Basic - £117,000
Allowances - £20,000 (slightly less than BA?)
Pension (7% EZY) - £8,190
15% Loyalty - £17,550
Total = £162,740
Now comes the rumoured 15% for EZY (minimum, yet to be accepted, 2024).
EZY P1 (new pay deal, inc 12.5% & 2.25%):
Basic - £131,625
Allowances - £23,000
Pension (7% EZY) - £9,213
15% Loyalty - £19,744
Total = £183,282
Equivalent BA Pay Point (including planned pay rises to Year End 2024):
PP16
Basic - £136,432
Allowances - £25,000
Pension (15% BA) - £25,623
Total = £187,055
A few notes...
- EZY pay deal is far from accepted (likely not)
- BA rumours of adjustment to pay scales due to recruitment issues
Not fair to compare a year 10 years EZY P1 to a BA year 2...
Years as P2 count for the loyalty bonus though, so most Capts have at least 10% loyalty, DECs aside, that are not many.
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 898
Likes: 73
From: UK
To clear up this freeze thing once and for all, there are various freezes of differing lengths. The pre-command freeze on type is one year, and to a different type it is four. When you first join, you also have an initial engagement freeze of five years. There is also another freeze which applies to new type ratings, which is six years.
Obviously they may release freezes as they see fit, but to keep things fair, freeze releases are typically done in seniority order, certainly within a fleet, and if possible across all fleets. So if you are junior and hoping to be released from a freeze, you need senior people to not want the course you are bidding for.
So when you first join, you have an initial engagement freeze (5 years), a pre-command freeze (1 year for on type and 4 years for a new type), and also a type rating freeze (6 years - I am assuming this freeze applies to new entrants, as it applies to all other pilots’ type rating courses these days, but this is a relatively recent extension from the old 5, so I am not totally sure whether new joiners are excluded from this freeze or not).
The consequence of seniority, means that for new joiners, the only freeze you are likely to be released from, is your initial engagement freeze, and overwhelmingly, this is most likely to be a move for a short haul command (due to you requiring the seniority for the move too).
So if you want the quickest short haul command, short haul FOs are currently getting to switch seats once their one year pre-command freeze is up and they have satisfied the experience requirements. If you start on a long haul fleet, you can expect to be held to your four year pre-command freeze (just as everyone on short haul is - it’s just that theirs is shorter because they are already on type). The only way you will move before four training years are up, is if all initial engagement freezes have been released, and they still have short haul command spaces to be filled, and I personally, would work on this being a highly unlikely scenario.
Obviously they may release freezes as they see fit, but to keep things fair, freeze releases are typically done in seniority order, certainly within a fleet, and if possible across all fleets. So if you are junior and hoping to be released from a freeze, you need senior people to not want the course you are bidding for.
So when you first join, you have an initial engagement freeze (5 years), a pre-command freeze (1 year for on type and 4 years for a new type), and also a type rating freeze (6 years - I am assuming this freeze applies to new entrants, as it applies to all other pilots’ type rating courses these days, but this is a relatively recent extension from the old 5, so I am not totally sure whether new joiners are excluded from this freeze or not).
The consequence of seniority, means that for new joiners, the only freeze you are likely to be released from, is your initial engagement freeze, and overwhelmingly, this is most likely to be a move for a short haul command (due to you requiring the seniority for the move too).
So if you want the quickest short haul command, short haul FOs are currently getting to switch seats once their one year pre-command freeze is up and they have satisfied the experience requirements. If you start on a long haul fleet, you can expect to be held to your four year pre-command freeze (just as everyone on short haul is - it’s just that theirs is shorter because they are already on type). The only way you will move before four training years are up, is if all initial engagement freezes have been released, and they still have short haul command spaces to be filled, and I personally, would work on this being a highly unlikely scenario.
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 233
Likes: 13
From: Somewhere
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 898
Likes: 73
From: UK
You are absolutely correct Plastic787. There are several other freeze lengths too, such as the eight year long haul command to long haul command freeze, but I did not mention them because I thought it best to only talk about freezes which are relevant to a new entrant, and their speed of moving to a short haul command or from one P2 seat to another.
(A move from P32L to C32L results in a six year freeze, as does a move from long haul Airbus to C32L).
(A move from P32L to C32L results in a six year freeze, as does a move from long haul Airbus to C32L).
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 112
Likes: 7
From: Neverland
EZY P1 gets 5% loyalty bonus from year 2 to year 4, 10% from year 5 to 9, and 15% from year 10+.
Not fair to compare a year 10 years EZY P1 to a BA year 2...
Years as P2 count for the loyalty bonus though, so most Capts have at least 10% loyalty, DECs aside, that are not many.
Not fair to compare a year 10 years EZY P1 to a BA year 2...
Years as P2 count for the loyalty bonus though, so most Capts have at least 10% loyalty, DECs aside, that are not many.
Joined: Mar 2024
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
From: UK
You are absolutely correct Plastic787. There are several other freeze lengths too, such as the eight year long haul command to long haul command freeze, but I did not mention them because I thought it best to only talk about freezes which are relevant to a new entrant, and their speed of moving to a short haul command or from one P2 seat to another.
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Less training costs means an earlier release to command on short haul.
Especially if someone would accept Gatwick base on Euroflyer.
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 898
Likes: 73
From: UK
The other thing to take into account regarding unfreezing, is that most people at the moment are joining type rated on long haul fleets.
Less training costs means an earlier release to command on short haul.
Especially if someone would accept Gatwick base on Euroflyer.
Less training costs means an earlier release to command on short haul.
Especially if someone would accept Gatwick base on Euroflyer.
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 233
Likes: 13
From: Somewhere
Also just from looking at iBid I haven’t seen a single DEP join on the 787 in the last year or upcoming as far as May so unless there’s swathes of Virgin escapees from the A350 or Emirates 777 pilots I can’t see where this “majority” of type rated DEP’s are coming from on the Long Haul fleets.
Joined: Jun 2020
Posts: 183
Likes: 41
From: UK
Long haul they are optimistic. Realistic IMHO on SH. (referring to 30min from chock on to finished)
