British Airways Direct Entry Pilot
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 995
Likes: 100
From: Botswana
SH commands will remain unpopular due to the nature of the work, this is the point that the failed PCS proposal continually missed. More money will not work, coercion by freezing people at lower pay points will not work. Luckily for those of us with significant time in the company there are lots more P1 seats on LH for the company to fill than there are SH ones so it is not possible to actually force people into SH commands before LH ones, if this were realistic I suspect the company would have already tried it.
If you’re joining with significant time and previous command then SH command will be available to you at the very first opportunity. This will remain the case for the foreseeable until more significant changes are made to the work/life balance on SH.
If you’re joining with significant time and previous command then SH command will be available to you at the very first opportunity. This will remain the case for the foreseeable until more significant changes are made to the work/life balance on SH.
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 123
Likes: 9
From: UK
Can't say I really buy this theory. Money is ALWAYS the determining factor in the end, it's just that there isn't enough on offer at the moment.
Briefly imagine that SH pay matched LH pay. Do you think SH would be as unpopular? Would someone senior on SH decide to go and fly weekend Chicago's on LH for the same money? I've done both and I'm not sure I would.
The PCS deal saw SH and LH pay scales essentially matched up until PP18, combined with LH SFO scales capped at much lower levels - the clear intention being to force people towards SH commands or face financial loss. It may have been narrowly rejected but you can be sure that with a few tweaks, like lemmings, we'll vote it through eventually.
I think bidding behaviour will change dramatically when that happens.
Briefly imagine that SH pay matched LH pay. Do you think SH would be as unpopular? Would someone senior on SH decide to go and fly weekend Chicago's on LH for the same money? I've done both and I'm not sure I would.
The PCS deal saw SH and LH pay scales essentially matched up until PP18, combined with LH SFO scales capped at much lower levels - the clear intention being to force people towards SH commands or face financial loss. It may have been narrowly rejected but you can be sure that with a few tweaks, like lemmings, we'll vote it through eventually.
I think bidding behaviour will change dramatically when that happens.
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 995
Likes: 100
From: Botswana
People are already accepting financial penalty to be where they want to be lifestyle wise, be that the many career FOs or the ones that I personally know on the 380 or elsewhere staying put and waiting for their particular LH fleet of choice or simply to wait it out until they become more senior. The game has changed, it’s all about lifestyle and SH command does not offer it. The ones that do choose it are doing it for perfectly understandable career development rather than a meaningful improvement in pay. Once Rachel has taken her share, the pay improvement is pretty solidly underwhelming and it would have to be a massive uplift in pay to change that.
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 898
Likes: 73
From: UK
Yes indeed many people are. But the greater you make that pay penalty, the more people will decide it’s not worth that sacrifice. They don’t need, or even want everyone to make the move - just more than currently do. I agree with you, that there is far more to the decision than just pay, and I was one of those who held out for the long haul command myself.
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 312
Likes: 36
From: Slough, UK
Yep. You can bid whenever the bid window opens. You’ll be assigned a course the following training year assuming a successful bid. The only stipulation is that you meet the hours requirements and you’ve been a pilot in the company at least a year. It’s a fairly common path with SH commands being so junior.
As for the reasons why SH is so unpopular, work-life balance is the biggest factor but so are economic reasons. As RexBanner mentioned, the punitive tax structure of the UK and the insane property prices in the SE of the country put a lot of people off. It’s a hard gig to commute to if you’re at the bottom as you can’t guarantee your roster.
Longhaul is more stable and better paid rightly or wrongly. Also you don’t have to put up with multiple sectors out of LHR. It’s a shame because I really enjoyed bouncing around Europe and the nightstops. I don’t enjoy being awake all night and the sun burning your eyes out mid-Atlantic and being knackered on landing day as a longhaul pilot. Both roles have their pros and cons but longhaul appeals to a broader spectrum of pilots despite the negatives.
As for the reasons why SH is so unpopular, work-life balance is the biggest factor but so are economic reasons. As RexBanner mentioned, the punitive tax structure of the UK and the insane property prices in the SE of the country put a lot of people off. It’s a hard gig to commute to if you’re at the bottom as you can’t guarantee your roster.
Longhaul is more stable and better paid rightly or wrongly. Also you don’t have to put up with multiple sectors out of LHR. It’s a shame because I really enjoyed bouncing around Europe and the nightstops. I don’t enjoy being awake all night and the sun burning your eyes out mid-Atlantic and being knackered on landing day as a longhaul pilot. Both roles have their pros and cons but longhaul appeals to a broader spectrum of pilots despite the negatives.
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 995
Likes: 100
From: Botswana
Rather sweeping and unfair generalisation there, by any chance are you the current BACC chair?
There’s many copilots who are career FOs who are more than competent copilots who easily possess the required skill set (including some who’ve had commands in the forces) who are career FOs for reasons other than laziness or being cr*p. Childcare or caring for sick relatives comes up quite a lot and what’s actually wrong with wanting to enjoy your life - particularly if you’re never going to be senior in the LHS - rather than slogging it out to JFK 5 and a bit times a month (and more if we go back to 3LN MBTR)*?
Only the current iteration of Balpa could acquiesce with proposing a resolution to the difficulties the company have with struggling to recruit and filling internal positions (as a result of not keeping pay up with inflation and sweating the assets too hard) by putting all the blame and financial recourse onto the long serving FOs rather than the company itself.
*There are people choosing to do just that but they are young enough to eventually rise above this churn, some aren’t.
There’s many copilots who are career FOs who are more than competent copilots who easily possess the required skill set (including some who’ve had commands in the forces) who are career FOs for reasons other than laziness or being cr*p. Childcare or caring for sick relatives comes up quite a lot and what’s actually wrong with wanting to enjoy your life - particularly if you’re never going to be senior in the LHS - rather than slogging it out to JFK 5 and a bit times a month (and more if we go back to 3LN MBTR)*?
Only the current iteration of Balpa could acquiesce with proposing a resolution to the difficulties the company have with struggling to recruit and filling internal positions (as a result of not keeping pay up with inflation and sweating the assets too hard) by putting all the blame and financial recourse onto the long serving FOs rather than the company itself.
*There are people choosing to do just that but they are young enough to eventually rise above this churn, some aren’t.
Last edited by RexBanner; 30th May 2026 at 11:33.
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 154
Likes: 38
From: above Tranquility Base coming long
Thanks champair.
So I guess due to the setup of the system you can't directly join as a PIC, even if you have several years of experience as a PIC on the A320 and a current A320 PIC licence, correct?
Because the most junior FO already in the company have precedence in bidding, correct?
By the way, I fully agree with your assessment of shorthaul versus longhaul.
So I guess due to the setup of the system you can't directly join as a PIC, even if you have several years of experience as a PIC on the A320 and a current A320 PIC licence, correct?
Because the most junior FO already in the company have precedence in bidding, correct?
By the way, I fully agree with your assessment of shorthaul versus longhaul.
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 312
Likes: 36
From: Slough, UK
Hi 1201alarm,
Correct, no DEC although I’m not sure what the deal is with the other subsidiaries like Euroflyer and Cityflyer.
It’s all seniority-based although it’s likely a good chunk of the bottom of the FOs list won’t be eligible for command due to not meeting the hours requirements and possibly not having an ATPL. There are lots of cadets joining for example so you’d leapfrog them during bidding - most won’t bother to bid if they don’t meet the requirements but it’s important to note you can bid for anything. There are often some comedy bids thrown in but remember, don’t bid for what you don’t want!
Whilst it might seem punitive to require at least a year in the company, it’s probably for good reason. It’s a huge organisation and just bedding in can take a bit of time. I’m not talking just about SOPs but the wider organisation, contacts etc. It’s wise just to use that year to get to know how everything works before taking on the responsibility of command. Best of luck if you go for it!
Correct, no DEC although I’m not sure what the deal is with the other subsidiaries like Euroflyer and Cityflyer.
It’s all seniority-based although it’s likely a good chunk of the bottom of the FOs list won’t be eligible for command due to not meeting the hours requirements and possibly not having an ATPL. There are lots of cadets joining for example so you’d leapfrog them during bidding - most won’t bother to bid if they don’t meet the requirements but it’s important to note you can bid for anything. There are often some comedy bids thrown in but remember, don’t bid for what you don’t want!
Whilst it might seem punitive to require at least a year in the company, it’s probably for good reason. It’s a huge organisation and just bedding in can take a bit of time. I’m not talking just about SOPs but the wider organisation, contacts etc. It’s wise just to use that year to get to know how everything works before taking on the responsibility of command. Best of luck if you go for it!
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,559
Likes: 55
From: London
I did my command course 11 months after joining and I echo the comments above about having time to settle in, know how things work, who to call when etc. I’m now 2 years in to BA and feel much more comfortable than I did after that first year.
I also don’t see SH command going senior anytime soon. In general FO’s seem much more interested in going LH. With the current rate of new cadets, people are being unfrozen from SH to go LH and all that you need is 1500hrs.
I also don’t see SH command going senior anytime soon. In general FO’s seem much more interested in going LH. With the current rate of new cadets, people are being unfrozen from SH to go LH and all that you need is 1500hrs.
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 898
Likes: 73
From: UK
To you folk who think short haul command average seniority will not increase if the company significantly improves short haul command pay; presumably you are saying the company are completely wasting their money by doing so? Given how strictly they like to control the wage bill, it’s quite a blunder if they’re wrong.
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 898
Likes: 73
From: UK
According to the existing rules, they can indeed direct, but that needs to be done in juniority order, which would mean directing new recruits. Such action would see a big reduction in the number of people applying, and a big increase in the number of people leaving. It is also costly to run two type ratings so close together. I therefore think it is highly unlikely they would routinely take this option.
Your first suggestion is a possibility, but would require a rule change, and would result in an increase in the number of career FOs.
They are starting off with a carrot, but I agree a stick of some description is likely to be introduced should the carrot alone not achieve the desired number of volunteers.
Your first suggestion is a possibility, but would require a rule change, and would result in an increase in the number of career FOs.
They are starting off with a carrot, but I agree a stick of some description is likely to be introduced should the carrot alone not achieve the desired number of volunteers.
Joined: Sep 2010
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 884
Likes: 233
From: by the seaside
Many moons ago many took commands in Scotland - not only more money but there were various allowances to move which meant a substantial saving on moving upmarket when they came back to London but most of my mates stayed put and excepted 20 years to command..bid line didn’t come into it.
SR had a much better system in that one went through short haul to medium haul then long haul and back onto short haul for command. Pay was equal whatever fleet you were on and trips were equalised rather than the senior guys pinching the best ones.
It was happier and better remunerated than BA at Heathrow although the guys who went to the DC10 at Gatwick had fun.
There was also the offer of unpaid leave on top of our 47 days leave.
One of the questions I was asked by the Swiss repeatedly was why are British unions so militant; my answer was because of management and their behaviour.
SR had a much better system in that one went through short haul to medium haul then long haul and back onto short haul for command. Pay was equal whatever fleet you were on and trips were equalised rather than the senior guys pinching the best ones.
It was happier and better remunerated than BA at Heathrow although the guys who went to the DC10 at Gatwick had fun.
There was also the offer of unpaid leave on top of our 47 days leave.
One of the questions I was asked by the Swiss repeatedly was why are British unions so militant; my answer was because of management and their behaviour.
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 995
Likes: 100
From: Botswana
For the second time in the space of about three days no they couldn’t. There are way more long haul commands to fill than there are SH commands available. You cannot funnel every long haul command through short haul. The numbers don’t work, they don’t work now and they especially won’t work with the planned expansion of the long haul network. Which I suspect is the only reason it hasn’t already happened.
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 648
Likes: 74
From: uk
For the second time in the space of about three days no they couldn’t. There are way more long haul commands to fill than there are SH commands available. You cannot funnel every long haul command through short haul. The numbers don’t work, they don’t work now and they especially won’t work with the planned expansion of the long haul network. Which I suspect is the only reason it hasn’t already happened.
How do otherwise an airline like Air France manage a similar rule? (SH command before LH command)
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 995
Likes: 100
From: Botswana
Are you sure about your numbers? If the requirement was made then all LH command positions would be filled by SH command holders. So there would be as many gaps to be filled.
How do otherwise an airline like Air France manage a similar rule? (SH command before LH command)
How do otherwise an airline like Air France manage a similar rule? (SH command before LH command)
Of course every LH command filled by a SH captain creates a SH vacancy. Nobody disputes that. The question is whether SH command can realistically function as the mandatory gateway for all future LH commands. The distribution of Sh to LH aircraft also becomes increasingly skewed towards LH.
The issue isn’t backfilling vacancies, it’s throughput.
BA’s LH operation already supports more command positions than SH does, and the gap grows further with the planned expansion. At some point you’re asking a smaller SH command establishment to act as the sole feeder pool for a larger LH command establishment.
Air France can do it because Air France has chosen to build its entire career structure around that model - when BA still to this day promotes the ability to move LH RHS to LH LHS as part of its sales pitch to new recruits - and accepts the consequences: longer waits, slower progression and a much more rigid fleet hierarchy.
The question isn’t whether it’s theoretically possible. Clearly it is. The question is whether BA would choose to create that bottleneck when it has a rapidly expanding LH fleet and a requirement for hundreds of LH command holders.
If every LH command candidate must first spend several years in SH command, you are deliberately reducing the flow rate into LH command. That’s not an opinion, it’s simple queueing theory.
Which is why I said the numbers don’t work particularly well now, and will work even less well after another couple dozen widebodies arrive.
Yes you could introduce the rule, the question remains why BA would voluntarily introduce a bottleneck in LH commands (which is precisely the operation they are more interested in growing and generates more money) at the expense of a reducing short haul fleet just to solve a problem of a lack of internal bidders to short haul, which they are just about getting by with right now regardless even if it does go to the bottom of the list.
Suffice to say these are not our problems to solve, but the company’s which is why I was so disgusted with Balpa when they prevented us with that steaming !!!! in PCS. One thing is for sure as I said before this will have been on the company’s radar make no mistake and there’s obviously a genuine reason they haven’t gone for it.