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PSA: Private aviation is booming right now

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PSA: Private aviation is booming right now

Old 17th Sep 2020, 22:14
  #21 (permalink)  
 
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Exact. Gulfstream, Bombardier and Falcon all control their training facilities and it is nearly impossible to dry lease one of their simulators. If you need a LPC you have to pay the price. But this is typical private aviation overall. Everything from Type Ratings, to handling fees, toilet services, management companies, sales people.... everyone just tries to grab as much money as possible.
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Old 17th Sep 2020, 22:16
  #22 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by lederhosen View Post
That is amazing! So some pilot‘s LPC costs 70,000 plus dollars yearly? Is that when are no sims and this is all done on the aircraft? if this is the price for sim training then that looks to be a good business to be in.
No that is the simulator cost itself plus hotel and travels on top of that. Actually it might be worth doing the LPC in the aircraft if you can. Maybe cheaper....
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Old 18th Sep 2020, 08:33
  #23 (permalink)  
 
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I had heard that there are limited training options for example with Learjets in Europe and that quite a lot of training is carried out on the aircraft. With Covid and US travel restrictions the whole situation is even more complicated and no doubt expensive! An affordable simulator option would be an interesting business idea and would presumably make certain aircraft more affordable.
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Old 18th Sep 2020, 10:08
  #24 (permalink)  
 
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It's just crazy. An hour and a half even in a G6 does not come anywhere near $20k let alone $70k.
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Old 18th Sep 2020, 11:17
  #25 (permalink)  
 
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Too bad you can't practice most of the manouvres required for an LPC in the real thing. Authorities (especially the very "flexible" ones, eg Austrocontrol) used to allow it in the past, but not anymore, unless you can prove that there is no sim availability worldwide.
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Old 18th Sep 2020, 12:10
  #26 (permalink)  
 
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I have no experience in corporate ops whatsoever but what on earth would make the recurrent so damn expensive ? Ok I get the fact there are only a few sims available in the world but still... it is a civilian jet, as much stuffed with super hi-tech equipment that it can be it still should not require so much money to run a web based CBT/learning and a 2 or 4 hours simulator session...
How do You end up spending 80k dollars ?! With that money You can get rated on 3 types of Airbus.
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Old 18th Sep 2020, 14:52
  #27 (permalink)  
 
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Because it's monopoly. If you don't go to those who charge a fortune, you've got nowhere else to go, you'll have no pilots and the aircraft will be left to rot. And both the actual manufacturers and the training providers have their ways and means of keeping this status quo because it suits them well. If you're wealthy enough to run a Gulfstream V, you'll also find the money to pay for the sim.

The same goes for maintenance. You can service a C525 cheaply somewhere in Eastern Europe, but you cannot do that with a Gulfstream. There's only one maintenance provider in Europe, I think, the one at Luton. And they will charge you eye-watering sums for everything. It's just like driving a premium car. Why does a simple oil change for a Mercedes S Class cost a couple of times more than an oil change for a Ford Focus? For the very same reason. If you can afford a premium-class vehicle, you will also be made to cough up premium sums of cash to keep it running.
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Old 18th Sep 2020, 17:25
  #28 (permalink)  
 
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Lots of good points by PLZ. Gulfstream has a new service centre supported at FAB now.
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Old 19th Sep 2020, 07:04
  #29 (permalink)  
 
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I'm truly flabbergasted by the numbers though. Say you have a rating and employment. Owner sells up, no job, you're approaching one year without flying the type. Where do you find 70k from to renew?
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Old 19th Sep 2020, 09:04
  #30 (permalink)  
 
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PilotLZ

Thank You very much for the thorough explantation.
I would not compare it though as owning a Mercedes Class S versus a Ford Focus such as G650 vs A320 as I doubt the first will be more expensive than a brand new A321NEO.
A brand new A319 or A320CJ will also still cost a lot more.
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Old 19th Sep 2020, 10:35
  #31 (permalink)  
 
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I wouldn’t take that personally. Airbus is a nice aircraft. However, you missed PLZ’s point.
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Old 19th Sep 2020, 11:49
  #32 (permalink)  
 
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sonicbum

I would not be so sure about that. A G650 is sold at retail price, around 70 millions USD if I remember right, with years of waiting list, no discount, while a 320 can be bought with a significant discount, as much as 50%, if bought in large quantities.
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Old 19th Sep 2020, 12:23
  #33 (permalink)  
 
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3RDi

Take it personally ? What are you talking about ? PLZ gave a very interesting a thorough explanation for which I thank him. I was just really impressed by those differences in costs of biz jets vs airliners.
I would take it personally if I owned either a GV or an A320, but I don’t ;-)
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Old 19th Sep 2020, 12:28
  #34 (permalink)  
 
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dirk85

I trust You on the figures as however I am not going to be able to afford either of these in the near and distant future I believe, unless as pilots we start getting paid as football players, which I believe we should by the way. 😎
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Old 20th Sep 2020, 06:28
  #35 (permalink)  
 
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Prices actually came down a bit on the GVI afaik. CAE normally being cheaper than FSI.
Initial $105,000-$120,000, but you get initials with your new shiny jet anyways.
Recurrent can be done for about $50,000, that consists of 2 days ground school and 3 sim sessions.
Other options like full service contracts are available.

GVII and the new Global must be the most expensive ratings these days.

But as others have said before: training costs are peanuts in the grand scheme of things.
You just don’t wanna get typed or renew your LPC on own accounts, unless you’re a well connected freelancer who will make up for it easily.
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Old 27th Dec 2020, 23:01
  #36 (permalink)  
 
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PilotLZ

Can I ask you at which ATO?
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Old 30th Dec 2020, 17:24
  #37 (permalink)  
 
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I don't remember the name, but their simulator centre is definitely in Austria, not far from VIE airport.
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Old 31st Dec 2020, 08:09
  #38 (permalink)  
 
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I wish someone, perhaps a journalist, would shine a light in to this very murky area of pricing and margins. A couple of Engineers that I know vaguely, got in to this arena, the flashy private jet part, (not ordinary GA) and both laughed aloud when they discovered the margins. They are both very wealthy now.
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Old 31st Dec 2020, 09:14
  #39 (permalink)  
 
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My opinion regarding this issue is that Gulfstream does’t want to end up in the same market condition of ,let’s say Airbus or Boeing , they want to control the number of pilot rated on G aircraft , basically no self founded pilot , so the only way to have a G type is working for a G operator , since the number of rated pilot is pretty low , is relatively easy to find a job on those a/c . Also if you note the majority of this type are N registered , so USA pilot garden . Worked for a private owner with some G5 ,and also the recurrent training or annual check was made in USA each year as part of
contract Gulfstream- owner .
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Old 31st Dec 2020, 09:51
  #40 (permalink)  
 
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It's also influenced by the market being a really small one. Less than 200 Gulfstream V aircraft have been produced so far. Compare that with over 10,000 each for the B737 and A320. Add on the typical crew-to-aircraft ratio being 2 or 3 crews per aircraft for a business jet - in contrast with 4-6 crews per aircraft for a midsized airliner. So, there are just a handful of Gulfstream V crews globally. Maybe 500 crews, making 1000 pilots total in the world. Maybe even less. Controlling such a tiny market and establishing monopoly in it is far, far easier than even attempting to control the huge market for the mainline aircraft. And, in addition, just about any price can be passed with the excuse of "It's a premium product, you know".
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