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A New Age In Tís & Cís

Terms and Endearment The forum the bean counters hoped would never happen. Your news on pay, rostering, allowances, extras and negotiations where you work - scheduled, charter or contract.

A New Age In Tís & Cís

Old 7th May 2020, 18:25
  #21 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Middle East
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If you take a loan, after interest over 10 years which is what most are designed to be repaid over, you're looking at 120k. That was the number I came up with 10 years ago!
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Old 7th May 2020, 21:50
  #22 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2018
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Originally Posted by Jimmy Hoffa Rocks View Post
This is not the time to accept low pay or poor conditions. Join a union if you are not in one. You have to look at the total cost of pilots to the operation. Look at our % cost versus the safety of the operation. The unions have to negotiate hard not to let executives take advantage. It is the executives who need to take a pay cut, and work on performance pay. We are the ones out there, if we screw up, people can get hurt. If you pay peanuts you get monkeys!! If aviation wants to have professionals safely you have to pay. We have to stay strong and united.
Have you been "out there" and actually seen all those parked up aeroplanes and empty airports? I really don't think that you have because it is a real eye-opener. (And really, if you have seen it, it is something that you would rather that you had not seen, I know, I've seen it.) Things are really, really bad. Just get off your high horse. The best way out of this is to forget what you were used to and look at ways of supporting as many pilots staying in jobs as possible. For a while that will mean lower Ts&Cs (a lot lower). But pilots accepting lower in order to keep as many other pilots in work as possible has to be the real aim of any fellow pilot. Stick together to save jobs. Ts&Cs can come later.
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Old 7th May 2020, 22:52
  #23 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
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Originally Posted by NoelEvans View Post
Have you been "out there" and actually seen all those parked up aeroplanes and empty airports? I really don't think that you have because it is a real eye-opener. (And really, if you have seen it, it is something that you would rather that you had not seen, I know, I've seen it.) Things are really, really bad. Just get off your high horse. The best way out of this is to forget what you were used to and look at ways of supporting as many pilots staying in jobs as possible. For a while that will mean lower Ts&Cs (a lot lower). But pilots accepting lower in order to keep as many other pilots in work as possible has to be the real aim of any fellow pilot. Stick together to save jobs. Ts&Cs can come later.
Sorry but I disagree. I personally will not be agreeing to any concessionary contract. Historically concessionary contracts have just continued the race to the bottom. If they are going to be making redundancies, no paycut will prevent that from happening in my opinion.
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Old 7th May 2020, 23:22
  #24 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
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Originally Posted by lear999wa View Post
I personally will not be agreeing to any concessionary contract.
You won't.
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Old 8th May 2020, 00:34
  #25 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
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It's a false ideal to think that we can agree to worse T&C's today to save jobs and then when things are brighter we'll have them back.

Once they are gone, they will be gone forever. We either refuse to accept them point blank (and accept that will mean management say some pilots must go) or accept them and by doing so accept that things have changed permanently.

When profits are good we'll get thrown some crumbs and it'll be marketed by management as a bonus and something surplus to what we deserve ... and we will take it and laud their generosity.

Cue next crisis ... rinse repeat.
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Old 8th May 2020, 05:23
  #26 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
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While I absolutely hate to say this, it's the unfortunate truth... In the present situation one can only turn down new T&Cs either if they don't care about being employed or not or if they just don't realise how easily can they be replaced. While this will not last eternity, it will be a good couple of years before we're in a position to bargain again. That's just how supply and demand works. When you're in high demand, you can bargain for better T&Cs or just go elsewhere if not happy. In times like that, you either agree to whatever is thrown your way or you get kicked out and replaced by someone more agreeable. And then, when the market turns over again, you are no longer current and of limited interest to the ones who offer decent deals.
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Old 8th May 2020, 07:25
  #27 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: UK, Paris, Peckham, New York
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It is quite disgusting how companies are seeing this pandemic, where people are dying, as an opportunity to hedge their staff costs down, as if we are a falling oil price.

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Old 8th May 2020, 07:59
  #28 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2020
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Originally Posted by A320LGW View Post
It's a false ideal to think that we can agree to worse T&C's today to save jobs and then when things are brighter we'll have them back.

Once they are gone, they will be gone forever. We either refuse to accept them point blank (and accept that will mean management say some pilots must go) or accept them and by doing so accept that things have changed permanently.

When profits are good we'll get thrown some crumbs and it'll be marketed by management as a bonus and something surplus to what we deserve ... and we will take it and laud their generosity.

Cue next crisis ... rinse repeat.
Exactly this.

This crisis is a wet dream for airline managers who have been waiting for years to take an axe to pilot Ts&Cs. We are going to see a "correction" downwards, and it will be permanent. People need to get it into their heads that this is, for some bizarre reason, still an aspirational career. Kids will sell their grannies to be able to get a perfect picture for their Instagram of themselves in the cockpit of a jet wearing their Ray Bans and Breitling. From a bean counter's point of view, it is utter madness to pay a decent salary to people who would basically do the job for free.
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Old 8th May 2020, 08:35
  #29 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: uk
Posts: 792
Exactly this.
Thomas Cook pilots agreed a T&C's cut in the face of a threat to close the UK airline down. It subsequently took an actual strike to get even a part of the package back.
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Old 8th May 2020, 09:42
  #30 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Temple Of Doom
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Terms and conditions are going to get worse as it is a case of supply and demand.

Problem is even though some airlines have had better terms then say others all bets are now off (only have to look at the BA thread about the zero hour contract).

I got into aviation just as Ryanair started to get big. I believe what they had on offer was an over priced type rating, be based anywhere on the Ryanair network and be employed by a third party who may or may man not give you work. With these fantastic terms people jumped at it. I think not shortly afterwards Easyjet came up with their own scheme which I think was even worse, and people still jumped at it as they were desperate to get their hand on a shiny jet.

It has now come full circle with BA now having this zero hour contract looming over their heads. I don't think BA will personally be on zero hour contracts, but there are people who would jump on it to further their career at the expense of others.

I feel terms and conditions are going to get worse but I belive one way to get these terms increased in the future is to decrease the supply. One way to do this is to increase the required hours to say fly a medium size jet eg 737 and anything bigger to say 1500hrs.
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Old 8th May 2020, 09:58
  #31 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
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Guy, I suspect your motives or role, as you are excessively negative without substantiation.

Yes, pay and terms are going to take a massive dive in the medium term, but it will NOT be permanent. As Jones mentions, it's about supply and demand - but with much poorer pay and job security on offer, no-one in their right mind is going to train up and older Captains are going to call it a day, so there will be a MASSIVE pilot supply crunch in 3-5 years, and that can only lead to a big correction in pay. Unions have a role to play, but the main driver is supply and demand, as multiple airlines all chase the same pilots (think the late 80s, with lesser examples in recent years). Most (but not all!) pilots have memories longer than 5 years, so how airlines treat their pilots now, will be remembered when the boots on the other foot - my airlines one selling point is job security in a crisis - if they sabotage that reputation, then it will avoided like the plague in future.

Last edited by midnight cruiser; 8th May 2020 at 10:12.
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Old 8th May 2020, 10:36
  #32 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
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Over the last years I have seen more than one airline improving pay and roster significantly simply because pilots walked out en masse for better opportunities, with neither of them being easy to replace because rated and experienced individuals out of employment were virtually non-existent. That being said after all the crises of the last 20 years which drove the conditions down and years after the coming of zero-hour contracts. So, it's not all doom and gloom till the end of time. We are in for a bumpy ride until previous levels of employment return, and that will be at least 2 or 3 years from now - but improvements will inevitably come by as demand outweighs supply again. For now, everyone's task is to do whatever it takes to provide for themselves and their family, stay healthy and sane and maintain their currency, knowledge and contacts. Better days will come, that's for sure.
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Old 8th May 2020, 10:41
  #33 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
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TCX were a reasonably amenable bunch and though far from perfect, like most outfits you could point to a whole raft of annoying issues however generally speaking the culture of the company was reasonably laid back compared to the more hardnosed styles out there. macdo states correctly the battle royal that ensued which led ultimately to the first strike action in decades taken after a number of years waiting professionally and patiently for return of some proportion of the benefit package and renumeration to be returned after several years of the company commenced posting profits again

The key in this is the "relatively" easy going culture at TCX compared to some of the airlines out there. Id suggest with a resonably balanced view that you dont need a crystal ball to anticipate how easy cuts and reductions will be to retrieve in the future once they are given up. Director bomus and shareholder considerations will always create reasons enough to make you fight tooth and nail for every lost millimeter ov employee value

Survival is one thing we all get that, Power grabs and scything terms and conditions with a view of increasing market share post recovery cloaked under the camoflage of COVID survival are another.

We are entering the first real opportunity since the 1940s to take stock and revisit how we do many things. its hard to see any better opportunity to look at options outside the current practices, companies trying to outstupid and devalue what should be valuable members of their operational teams to cuts costs to the absolute bone to keep tabs and apace with the most ridiculous thinkers in the industry whom see nothing but the current success criteria for airlines presently look less than ideal across the spectrum.

Safe and fulfilling flying careers are possible - but not how the airlines have been run during the recent past

Good luck. Keep your 2m apart.
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Old 8th May 2020, 17:51
  #34 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: Northern Europe
Posts: 27
There will be no pilot shortage in the next decade or more. Market is supersaturated with pilots and even if half of us leave the industry to work as delivery boys it doesn't mean we quit forever. As soon as opportunity arise we'r ready to jump back in. Rating won't permanently expire unless u keep it expired for more than 3 years and many of us will pay to keep it alive.
It's gonna be a tough year with little flying and little money and even though i believe that covid trend will become obsolete and forgotten by next summer , aviation is still facing a real 'great depression' scale crisis that will come in about 10-15 years from now.
I am still employed but willing to fly for food and mortgage just to keep me and my company alive.
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Old 8th May 2020, 20:04
  #35 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
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Dr Jones

Here here. If iíde been in a coma for 20 years and just woken up this opinion would be the ďnormalĒ
Flying is too cheap and has been for too long, see capitalism the rest is inevitable.......
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Old 9th May 2020, 00:37
  #36 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
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Rant mode on:



It really is sad reading this thread, with what appears being mainly European pilots, saying how they are willing to, what seems, happily help the airlines erode our own T&Cís even further. I have previously lived in the US and most of my aviation network is over there, and I also frequent one of the better aviation web forums over there daily. I can tell you guys, despite the massive layoffs being forecasted there too, the absolute majority of them are NOT prepared to ďassistĒ in bringing their compensation they have fought so hard for over the last several years down. And as many may know, their compensation packages have been double or triple over what has been on offer in Europe (bar a few remaining national carriers maybe) for the last several years. Most of them are saying they would rather leave aviation and do something else for a while and then return when pay is where it should be than work for sub par pay.

Despite being European and having an EASA license (on top of an FAA one) I have never worked in Europe during my more than 20 years as a commercial pilot due to the, generally speaking, crappy terms being offered in Europe mainly due to way too many selling themselves way too short just so they can put on their shiny white pilot shirt while proudly walking through the terminal. Iím actually seriously considering letting my EASA ATPL lapse next year and solely rely on my FAA license for the second half of my career. Much easier and cheaper to keep alive and current anyways.

The US may have its share of problems (which country doesnít) but at this point I am so thankful I decided to renew my green card just a couple of months ago giving me the option to go back there at some point to make a decent wage. Iíd rather live and work there for fair and reasonable wages in an effort to one day being able to retire somewhat comfortably, versus being under compensated due to surrounding myself with a pilot group who appears to generally lack any kind of self respect and accept whatever is being thrown at them. The lack of unity amongst European pilots is absolutely sickening, a case of truly being their own worst enemies.

Until the virus struck I had a contract to fly through a US ACMI carrier for a European airline over the summer. I was recruited by one of the major crewing agencies in Europe and it was actually a pretty good contract being in Europe, so I accepted it. Today I received a questionnaire from the recruiter and below is one of the questions I was being asked. I have, sadly, no doubt that there would be no shortage of pilots in Europe signing up for one of the several ridiculous options (full pay not included) below, in a way basically subsidizing the airlines.



My bills did not stop coming in just because of the virus showing up, so tell me why I should work for free then? And this is coming from someone who is already on month ten of unemployment due to my last job ending when the plan I was on sold. Luckily I have always managed my personal finances in a way that I can easily take a bump/crater in the road like this one. And I am not saying this to brag, but I have read and heard so many stories over the years from people/pilots who were spending their money as fast (or faster) as they were making them and then ending up in a bind as soon as their job went away, for whatever reason. Hence I have promised myself to never put myself in such a situation. The reason why I have been able to do this is because I refused to accept a job with sub par compensation.

Yes, it has required me to be a bit flexible on where I have worked/lived, but to me it has been well worth it versus constantly feeling the financial stress of not making enough to put away money for a rainy day or two, or even worse, stressing over not even being able to pay my bills. In the end it has allowed me to live anywhere in the world (I returned to Europe) while making a fair/good salary and basically having as many days off in a month as I worked.

End of rant and putting my flame suit on...
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Old 9th May 2020, 06:03
  #37 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Temple Of Doom
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Originally Posted by jarjam View Post
Here here. If iíde been in a coma for 20 years and just woken up this opinion would be the ďnormalĒ
Flying is too cheap and has been for too long, see capitalism the rest is inevitable.......
You are right on the whole fying is too cheap. But putting prices up does not mean as a pilot you will get better terms and conditions, as the greedy airlines might want to keep the money for themselves.

​​​​​In order to improve terms, we need times to be good (which they are not at the moment) and you need to some how cut down the supply of pilots.

Now how you cut the supply of pilots is anyones guess, I just went with a minimum number of hours. You could alternatively do it on age ie min age to fly on an AOC operation is say 25.

The numbers involved are irrelevant and even my suggestions are too, but in order for terms to improve in the future when times start to become good the supply of pilots need to be reduced.
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Old 9th May 2020, 07:01
  #38 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
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FlyTCI, part of me is gobsmacked about that questionnaire, but part of it just solidifies what Iíve been thinking would happen for the last couple of weeks.

My airline has furloughed most of itís pilots, but no redundancies planned yet.

The trouble is that so many people in my airline (including the crew council) love the mantra of ďYou should be grateful to have a jobĒ. The top management also love to say it too. So every time the management try to get more for less, itís met with a ďWell, if it keeps me in a job, then itís fine by meĒ. In addition to ďIím sure thereíd be people from Thomas Cook or flyBe who would kill for my job, so weíre lucky!Ē.

I donít want to argue the semantics of this, because Iíve been made redundant in the past and know how it is. But, when people have the ďIím just grateful to have a jobĒ mentality, T&Cs are only ever going to go one way.

And this mentality gets stronger in times of struggle. So itís a vicious cycle. The more unemployed pilots on the market, the more the employed ones desperately cling to their jobs, and the bigger cuts theyíre willing to take.

In the coming weeks, Iím expecting my company to implement either long-term unpaid leave (6-12 months), forced part-time, or even zero-hour hourly-paid contracts. Weíve already had a pay cut, which people believe to be temporary. My opinion is that weíre never getting that back. Ever. But, whatever gets implemented I know that a vast majority of my colleagues will just accept, shrug, and say ďAt least Iím still in a jobĒ.
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Old 9th May 2020, 08:39
  #39 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
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'You should be grateful to have a job' is a mindf#@k that management regularly have used to undermine an employee groups confidence in their job security. Mostly, it is left unsaid but implied in the way management negotiates with its workforce. Management and BoD's need reminding they should also be grateful to have a job and that job relies on the folks they employ doing their job properly.
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Old 11th May 2020, 11:55
  #40 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: Yorkshire
Posts: 81
Too many of you here really, really do not understand the true situation out there. Do not try to compare with the Thomas Cook situation, the financial crash, 9/11 or even the first Gulf War. This is nothing like any of those. This graph was in Flight a month ago:
Please try to find "the Thomas Cook situation, the financial crash, 9/11 or even the first Gulf War." on that graph and compare it with now. I have seen parked and sealed aeroplanes and deserted airport terminals. This is bad. All past ways of doing things are going to need to change to be able to survive. Concepts like
'You should be grateful to have a job' is a mindf#@k that management regularly have used to undermine an employee groups confidence in their job security.
belong to the past.

Pilots should be doing everything that they can to keep as many pilots as possible in jobs, regardless of 'Ts&Cs'. Anyone digging their heels in to "Defend their 'Ts&Cs'" without any thought about how this will affect other pilots' jobs should probably justifiably be seen as just selfish. Just get on with the real world about you right now and keeping pilots in jobs must be the top priority. PilotLZ has got it spot on: Things will improve and when the shortage 'bites' eventually there will be an improvement in conditions. In the mean time survival is the most important and pilots should be working together to ensure the survival of as many jobs as possible.

But for anyone wanting to dig their heels in and "stand up for their Ts&Cs", I hope that's what you tell them at your first interview in the Jobcentre.

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