Spanish government declares ATPL as equivalent to a University degree
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It's the same with other Professions (Lawyers, Doctors, Accountants, Engineers etc) - there is an initial body of underpinning knowledge & understanding (UK&U) to be mastered, and then one has to gain sufficient experience to show evidence that you can apply that K&U to real situations. Then there are management elements - people management, task management and financial management to a greater of lesser degree. And then in all the professions there is a need for continuous learning to maintain currency. An finally there are codes of conduct, ethics etc.
I have no problem at all recognising an unfrozen ATPL as a Profession - it would actually be a pretty smart idea to establish an Institute with a Charter and get that set up. But while for some Professions the UK&U is best acquired and demonstrated through university degrees for other professions it isn't necessarily so. To be a doctor or vet (I think) you require the appropriate degrees, but to be a lawyer or accountant you don't - they have professional exams as an option. To be a Professional Engineer you have to show UK&U equivilent to the level of a relevant masters degree supported by a relevant honours degree (for C.Eng - for I.Eng you don't need the masters), but having the actual degrees isn't mandatory if you can show the same level achieved by other means (and indeed that's how the majority of Chartered Engineers did it).
Anyway, the point is this - by all means go for Professional Pilot becoming recognised along side the other professions. I'd support that whole-heartedly. But don't make the mistake of assuming that because it's a Profession the associated basic UK&U must be equivalent to a degree, because it just isn't - neither in depth nor scope of study. Just as it isn't for Chartered Accountants.
I have no problem at all recognising an unfrozen ATPL as a Profession - it would actually be a pretty smart idea to establish an Institute with a Charter and get that set up. But while for some Professions the UK&U is best acquired and demonstrated through university degrees for other professions it isn't necessarily so. To be a doctor or vet (I think) you require the appropriate degrees, but to be a lawyer or accountant you don't - they have professional exams as an option. To be a Professional Engineer you have to show UK&U equivilent to the level of a relevant masters degree supported by a relevant honours degree (for C.Eng - for I.Eng you don't need the masters), but having the actual degrees isn't mandatory if you can show the same level achieved by other means (and indeed that's how the majority of Chartered Engineers did it).
Anyway, the point is this - by all means go for Professional Pilot becoming recognised along side the other professions. I'd support that whole-heartedly. But don't make the mistake of assuming that because it's a Profession the associated basic UK&U must be equivalent to a degree, because it just isn't - neither in depth nor scope of study. Just as it isn't for Chartered Accountants.
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Originally Posted by PDR1
To be a doctor or vet (I think) you require the appropriate degrees, but to be a lawyer or accountant you don't - they have professional exams as an option.
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Arguably medicine shouldn't be considered a degree. The joke goes that it's 97 GCSEs taken over 5 years, and that would be about right for the academic part of it. So the genie's already out of the bottle when it comes to vocational qualifications being recognised as degrees...
Really, 90% of what going to university is about, is going to live away from home amongst people with a different background to your own and how to prioritise work and play with nobody looking too closely over your shoulder. Whether an ATPL achieves this, I don't know.
Really, 90% of what going to university is about, is going to live away from home amongst people with a different background to your own and how to prioritise work and play with nobody looking too closely over your shoulder. Whether an ATPL achieves this, I don't know.
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What a really stupid idea! No doubt it had to come from the Iberian peninsula... 
exactly what GS says!
The technical content and level of difficult is at best to GCSE level, at worst middle school knowledge.
Also agree wholeheartedly with MH152:
I see no reason why passing 14 multi-choice papers and subsequently achieving 1500 hours should entitle pilots to a degree.
There is nothing that involves any preparation at degree level in our profession. PDR1 also sums it up pretty damn well.
There is a level of responsibility for life and equipment, of course. Which should be reflected in the remuneration package. But a degree for an Atpl? What a crock of
Originally Posted by GS-Alpha
Volume of information to learn, does not a degree make. The difficulty level of the ATPL course content is no higher than GCSE. There is a lot of information to learn so I’m not saying it is equivalent to just one GCSE qualification, but doing 15 GCSEs still does not mean you should be awarded a degree.
The technical content and level of difficult is at best to GCSE level, at worst middle school knowledge.
Also agree wholeheartedly with MH152:
Yet those studying, researching and writing essays on technical matters are surely becoming more learned than an enthusiastic budding pilot who is simply reading a book of notes specifically prepared by a company familiar with the bank of multiple choice questions? As most graduates from the ATPL examinations in the past ten years obtained averages over the 14 subjects of over 90% one has to question the value of that qualification.
There is nothing that involves any preparation at degree level in our profession. PDR1 also sums it up pretty damn well.
There is a level of responsibility for life and equipment, of course. Which should be reflected in the remuneration package. But a degree for an Atpl? What a crock of
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Originally Posted by RudderTrimZero
People are equating the passing of 14 ATPL exams with the passing of a degree course and concluding they're not the same. Well yes, but if you study the subjects properly and in depth, without any feedback questions, 14 ATPL subjects are hard work with way more time and effort involved than a degree. The difference is that degree courses are followed by more unpredictable examination styles and questions whereas to pass 14 ATPL exams is easy thanks to multiple choice and thousands of sample questions from the question banks.
Both have one thing in common though. You will study pointless and out of date topics that have little resemblance to modernity.
Both have one thing in common though. You will study pointless and out of date topics that have little resemblance to modernity.
What you said is just so true and so well said
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The Spanish goverment have been doing this equivalence for at least 15 years, nothing new.
If you read it properly you will see it says they will convalidate the " titulo de piloto". Thats a yellow paper the Spanish authority gives you when you finish your license ( invented by them). That means no joy for those of us who do not have or never held a Spanish license. Thats the answer the COPAC gave me several times between 2002 and now, and they are not willing to help with the convalidation unless you have this paper.
Goodluck
If you read it properly you will see it says they will convalidate the " titulo de piloto". Thats a yellow paper the Spanish authority gives you when you finish your license ( invented by them). That means no joy for those of us who do not have or never held a Spanish license. Thats the answer the COPAC gave me several times between 2002 and now, and they are not willing to help with the convalidation unless you have this paper.
Goodluck
It’s useful to have the recognition the licence deserves. When filling in online forms I can only enter “high school” or “other” in the education field. It puts us at a disadvantage and we don’t get credit for our status in applications.
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In the same way that degrees have been dumbed down to the point where one poster's assertion that his ex-sister-in-law gained a 2-1 (whatever that means) with ease, yet being unable to articulate, the ATPL has also been dumbed down to multichoice, easy to pass levels. So, they both have been dumbed down & should be equally recognised.
Actually, sorry to say this, but way back when GCE 'O' levels were quite hard, and 'A' levels were very hard, the UK ATPL was extremely hard because it required passes in at least 9 subjects, all hand-written with pass marks, on average, of 65%. Couple I can think of, like plotting & Met Practical, requited 80% just to pass. Let's say, 9 'A' levels, all at grade A to get you your ATPL writtens. Just to get into Uni (to use modern parlance), you needed just two 'A' levels with decent grades. My E grade pass in Economics and E grade pass in British Constitution failed to get me into Oxford but gained me a place (Law) at Bristol.
The 'old' UK ATPL that we baby-boomers gained after PPL, CPL, Senior Commercial and, consequently, around 1000hrs commercial experience & eight weeks of hell at Sir John Cass College was definitely worth degree status.
Once it is all sorted, can someone tell me where I can pick mine up ? Just to hang on the wall where I, and I alone, can really admire my endeavours. Cheers.
Actually, sorry to say this, but way back when GCE 'O' levels were quite hard, and 'A' levels were very hard, the UK ATPL was extremely hard because it required passes in at least 9 subjects, all hand-written with pass marks, on average, of 65%. Couple I can think of, like plotting & Met Practical, requited 80% just to pass. Let's say, 9 'A' levels, all at grade A to get you your ATPL writtens. Just to get into Uni (to use modern parlance), you needed just two 'A' levels with decent grades. My E grade pass in Economics and E grade pass in British Constitution failed to get me into Oxford but gained me a place (Law) at Bristol.
The 'old' UK ATPL that we baby-boomers gained after PPL, CPL, Senior Commercial and, consequently, around 1000hrs commercial experience & eight weeks of hell at Sir John Cass College was definitely worth degree status.
Once it is all sorted, can someone tell me where I can pick mine up ? Just to hang on the wall where I, and I alone, can really admire my endeavours. Cheers.
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Totally agree - ATPL theory in the last 20 years or so is just a memory test. It's not about how much you understand the subject, but more about learning the feedback parrot fashion. I'm sure type ratings have also been dumbed down over the years too.
This is an age-old debate that rears its head every year or so - my guess is, generally by those who don't have a degree, but want to claim the ATPL is somehow just as worthy. It's not!
This is an age-old debate that rears its head every year or so - my guess is, generally by those who don't have a degree, but want to claim the ATPL is somehow just as worthy. It's not!
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It's generally the other way around, people who got a degree but never made it as professional pilots or never went too far in their career.
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Originally Posted by krismiler
It’s useful to have the recognition the licence deserves.
When filling in online forms I can only enter “high school” or “other” in the education field. It puts us at a disadvantage and we don’t get credit for our status in applications.
A BA/BSc graduate should be able to assimilate information and experimental/research results, review them and draw conclusions, with some commentary on methods. A Honours Grad should be able to define objectives and conduct the reseach as well, and identify methods to scale sources of error. A Masters Grad should be able to do that plus design the experimental/research methods with a rigorous and quantitative assessment of error sources (scope and scale), plus reflective critque on the defined objectives, methods and data sources. A PhD grad should be able to postulate a "new" piece of knowledge (a principle, theory or conjecture) and then identify methods by which this might be tested, and against what criteria (plus all the other stuff).
An ATPL doesn't even get to the "basic degree level" in this - it's a totally different kind of learning. Sure, an ATPL+TR could expect a high probability of successfully flying and landing a jet in adverse weather with some systems malfunctions*, but that's a manual skill not a something involing higher education. Yes, they can understand, recall and use reams of data (generated by someone else) on airspace categories, air regulations and the systems architecture of their current aeroplane, but that's what taxi-drivers do when they learn "the knowledge".
It's a Profession, but it's not a degree. Get used to it!
* But not today, apparently - because I waited for well over two hours in the terminal before they felt they could manage the weather this morning...
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PDR1, could not have put it any better myself!Whilst I agree there should be some form or recognition for the profession and skill required, a degree is WAY over the top.
Volume of information required to be remembered does not equal degree. Never mind the "academic" content of it!
In terms of recognition, I stand by my assertion of remuneration vs. academic title. The skill and level of responsibility borne by the pilot should be reflected in salary.
As others have said.. this argument rears its ugly head every now and again, but really.. if people want a degree, "pay" your dues and and get one like every other graduate? Plenty of people I've come across at work, who have gone and got degrees in a number of disciplines, all while flying a jet for a living.
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Originally Posted by PDR1
Sure, an ATPL+TR could expect a high probability of successfully flying and landing a jet in adverse weather with some systems malfunctions*, but that's a manual skill not a something involing higher education. Yes, they can understand, recall and use reams of data (generated by someone else) on airspace categories, air regulations and the systems architecture of their current aeroplane, but that's what taxi-drivers do when they learn "the knowledge".
Source : myself, TRI/TRE and in training management of an European major.
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Originally Posted by Eddie_Crane
PDR1, could not have put it any better myself!
In terms of recognition, I stand by my assertion of remuneration vs. academic title. The skill and level of responsibility borne by the pilot should be reflected in salary.
Look, when I went to Uni I had all the usual aspirations - fame, fortune, hot babes and fast cars. But I chose engineering as a career so fame, fortune and hot babes were immediately off the menu and I was just left with the fast cars and the lettuce after my name. Had I chosen "professional pilot" then I would have had access to the fame, fortune and hot babes, and probably still had the fast cars, but I would never have got the lettuce. If you want the lettuce after your name you do have to do the work and achieve the degree, not just bitch about it later.
It's either that or share out the cash and give use 2nd dibs on some of the totty.
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Originally Posted by PDR1
Had I chosen "professional pilot" then I would have had access to the fame, fortune and hot babes, and probably still had the fast cars, but I would never have got the lettuce. If you want the lettuce after your name you do have to do the work and achieve the degree, not just bitch about it later.
It's either that or share out the cash and give use 2nd dibs on some of the totty.
It's either that or share out the cash and give use 2nd dibs on some of the totty.
But I do agree about having to put the work in for a degree!
I will re-iterate: ticking boxes to pass 14 Atpl subjects does NOT in any way shape or form equate to any work required at degree level. Equally, having achieved 10,000 or 30,000 hours flying a 300T jet around the globe does not entitle one to a degree! What academic achievement have we exactly attained to be able to say we should be awarded a degree?
Despite what others are trying to say, this is a job that requires no particularly high academic standards! Sure there is an element of aptitude, hand-eye coordination, decision-making, teamwork.
However, as someone else has said previously, most Atpl candidates achieve 90%+ pass marks on all subjects. That really says it all about the academic level of knowledge required to pass the Atpls...
The exact same goes for a Type Rating. It's just an awfully massive amount of technical info and procedures. I know because I've done 3.
But for heaven's sake it's not degree level learning!
What PDR1 said about successfully obtaining an ATPL and a TR is essentially true! We take an awful amount of information, and very basic for that matter, and apply it to our job. Again, airmanship, a "non-eventful" div to St Johns or Nizhnevartovsk, a successful landing in crosswind with gusts to 45kt, or a well-handled engine fire are NOT something you can go and claim a degree for!
You want a degree, go to Uni like everyone else who wanted a degree did before you. Simples really.
