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Norwegian burning cash!

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Norwegian burning cash!

Old 20th Oct 2017, 08:28
  #21 (permalink)  
 
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I think the sociological comment by smoothoperator is correct, but assumes a continuation of the largely benign world economic environment of low interest and low oil costs.
Unexpected world events are largely what will trip these new LH loco's up.
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Old 20th Oct 2017, 08:32
  #22 (permalink)  
 
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Heard of Laker Airways? Or too young?
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Old 20th Oct 2017, 09:53
  #23 (permalink)  
 
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Picked up a book about the subject from the library when I was about 10, does that count?

I understand the parallels (albeit in very basic terms) but we do live in an age of super complex financing deals that have one goal in mind...to mitigate direct financial risk. Combine that with group structures and offshore entities (all things that didn't exist back in the 1970s), does anyone here truly understand Norwegian's financial status considering they own 20% of a bank?
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Old 20th Oct 2017, 11:23
  #24 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Boeing 7E7 View Post
Such doom and gloom! There are many airlines that expanded, gained market share and survived to tell the tale. Ryanair and easyJet to name just two. I remember the same things were said when these two airlines embarked on their aggressive expansion plans 15 years ago. But the strategy worked. In that time we had 9/11, SARS and a Financial Crisis which all took their toll on the economies of the world. Granted, nothing is guaranteed. And they survived. Your tales of doom and gloom are rehashed arguments that were directed at what have now become the giants of the industry!
I really admire your enthusiasm 7e7 but comparing Norwegian to RYR and EZY is an invalid comparison. For one thing, both have expanded their business focusing on core competences and the business model is largely unchanged. The Norwegian biz model changes by the hour, the latest manifestation of which is this Argentinian fiasco.

Consult business studies 101 to learn that such radical change of business model is a high risk, usually forced strategy, because the pooch has been screwed elsewhere. I really wish Norwegian success, in all its weirdo manifestations, but to paraphrase the FT..."the fact that MOL hasn't launched his attempt at low cost long haul yet is proof enough that it can't as yet be profitably done." Nuf said, but consider this. RYR et all will often charge for a 40 minute ride in an owned B738/A319 what Norwegian charge for a ten hour ride in a brand new B787. Hard to imagine that boding well for NOS. The bubble will soon burst, Wells Fargo bank is about to go bang and Warren Buffet is cashed up and waiting. Buy on the cannon, sell on the trumpet. Good luck though.
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Old 20th Oct 2017, 14:03
  #25 (permalink)  
 
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No I mean the poor buggers who can't get onto the housing ladder because the average cost of a home is now £250k compared to the £50k it was when you were perhaps younger? I mean those who are earning less than what you did when you were perhaps younger? (in real terms). I mean the ones who have to service a massive pension black hole. I mean the ones who have to pay through their noses to correct the mistakes of criminal bankers and their lackeys in government. I mean the ones who have become conditioned to accept that there's no point in being loyal because the politicians and establishment figures will screw you over in any case. Those Millennials. Yes.
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Old 20th Oct 2017, 14:59
  #26 (permalink)  
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Don't forget also having to deal with the effects of global warming, the oncoming antibiotic apocalypse, and the rise of nazis (again). Cheers, older generations!

But no, we're all lazy and self entitled
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Old 20th Oct 2017, 15:30
  #27 (permalink)  
 
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As one non millennial to another. From the replies above, I think you've been right royally told!

Last edited by Boeing 7E7; 20th Oct 2017 at 18:45.
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Old 20th Oct 2017, 16:30
  #28 (permalink)  
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Well, if you're past a certain age, you won't have to worry about it....
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Old 20th Oct 2017, 16:35
  #29 (permalink)  
 
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Yes it's everyone else's fault
Ok, so how do we fix it? We’re already working all hours on crap contracts for employers that would drop us as soon as we become a liability, not earning enough to save for a mortgage (rendering your point about 15% interest rates a bit academic), with a massive pension debt to pay for the previous generation, and slim to nil chance of ever enjoying our twilight years.

Any suggestions?
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Old 20th Oct 2017, 16:45
  #30 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by thetimesreader84 View Post

Any suggestions?
Yes - Start a new thread!
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Old 20th Oct 2017, 18:04
  #31 (permalink)  
 
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What a load of bitter individuals on here. All the past generations fault. Well of course everything is caused by something in the past. I just cannot wait to see what a remarkable success the next generation will make. Laughing my tits off already.
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Old 20th Oct 2017, 18:11
  #32 (permalink)  
 
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Don't worry employeers like Rishworth and OSM ( I'd say Norwegian but they are not an employer of pilots) are helping clear the pension back log, by either not offering a pension (Rishworth) or one of the poorest pensions in today's industry (OSM).

Also you just need to speak to the pilots down route to hear many a tragic story of pilots going sick down route, getting no assistance from the company, and left fighting with the insurance company as to who is to pay what....
Then an income protection scheme that's not paid out to a single pilot, who has tried to cliam on it, due to legitimate long term sickness.
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Old 26th Oct 2017, 07:32
  #33 (permalink)  
 
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Norwegian today reported its third quarter results for 2017. The net result was 1 billion NOK, an improvement of 4 percent compared to the same quarter previous year. The load factor increased to 92 percent. The passenger development has been positive in all of Norwegian’s key markets, with a significant growth in the U.S. and Spain.

Well this won’t please the anti Norwegian brigade, but still winter is ahead and controlling loses in winter is key to making a full year profit.
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Old 26th Oct 2017, 11:43
  #34 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Superpilot View Post
There are countless examples of companies who run up extreme debt during expansion. My own had a comparable debt with less than 1/3 of the aircraft Norwegian has. It's taking a huge chunk of this debt every year right now.

What did RYR buy 150 737s with when it expanded after 9/11? Aviation is one of those industries where the value of the primary asset (aircraft) is often many times the total annual revenue. Debt is expected and welcomed by banks that are happy to loan the amounts. If they're happy to do so, what cause for concern do we have? The repayment plan is what matters.
RYRis a very highly geared company with a gearing ratio I would guess very nearly 100%
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Old 26th Oct 2017, 18:17
  #35 (permalink)  
 
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Thumbs up

Originally Posted by EIFFS View Post
Well this won’t please the anti Norwegian brigade, but still winter is ahead and controlling loses in winter is key to making a full year profit.
There is a person who understands European aviation
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Old 27th Oct 2017, 03:21
  #36 (permalink)  
 
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RYR is one of the best capitalised airlines that has ever existed. EZY is another. Their respective cash positions and strong balance sheets make them all but impregnable to weaker competitors.

Put simply, in EZY case. It could fly around for at least three months with no income whatsoever and it wouldn’t even blink.

It’s the legacies that have the gearing issues.

You don’t need to “imagine” their gearing A28161 look at their freely available accounts.
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Old 27th Oct 2017, 13:49
  #37 (permalink)  
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https://www.google.nl/amp/www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/news/norwegian-axe-spain-routes-from-birmingham/amp/
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Old 27th Oct 2017, 14:18
  #38 (permalink)  
 
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[QUOTE=

Also you just need to speak to the pilots down route to hear many a tragic story of pilots going sick down route, getting no assistance from the company, and left fighting with the insurance company as to who is to pay what....
Then an income protection scheme that's not paid out to a single pilot, who has tried to cliam on it, due to legitimate long term sickness.[/QUOTE]

Yep, the policy provided does not cover you for the US rip off medical charges. I'm pretty sure a "UK" company has a duty of care for it's employees when on company business ?
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Old 27th Oct 2017, 17:16
  #39 (permalink)  
 
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OK then...

Do you want to fly for an airline run by greedy ***** that is very cash rich...

Or one run by people who care about employee sustainability but is cash poor?

Quality of life/renumeration not knowing if you'll still have a job in 5 years Vs. a job for life as a slave whilst being kicked in the teeth?

Answers on a postcard.
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Old 27th Oct 2017, 22:02
  #40 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Boeing 7E7 View Post
Such doom and gloom! There are many airlines that expanded, gained market share and survived to tell the tale. Ryanair and easyJet to name just two. I remember the same things were said when these two airlines embarked on their aggressive expansion plans 15 years ago. But the strategy worked. In that time we had 9/11, SARS and a Financial Crisis which all took their toll on the economies of the world. Granted, nothing is guaranteed. And they survived. Your tales of doom and gloom are rehashed arguments that were directed at what have now become the giants of the industry!
FR and U2 utilised those assets for circa 16-18 hrs a day with multiple flights........ now Norwegian may be getting good revenue for LH but is it really financially better than flying 8 sectors a day ?

FR and U2 are are 90% capacity so 8 a day puts you circa 1500 pax plus all their spend v 2 a day of circa 600 with significantly higher costs.

1 aircaft goes tech for FR and U2 they can cope, going tech in LAX is kind of harder.
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