EASA FTL survey
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Joined: Mar 2007
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From: Here and there
EASA FTL survey
EASA and the EU Commission have agreed to some research into the new FTL regime. This review was one of the concessions we(Balpa) extracted from EASA during our Wake Up campaign.
The research is going to start with a survey of commercial air transport pilots, and that is live now. You can fill in the survey here.
This survey will allow the researchers to identify the two most pressing “fatigue hotspots” out of a list of six.
BALPA and the European Cockpit Association (ECA) are encouraging you and pilots from across Europe to take part. This is your opportunity to ensure pilots' concerns are fed directly into EASA's review. We fought hard for this concession; don't let it slip by.
The survey closes on 11th April, so your input is needed as soon as possible.
The research is going to start with a survey of commercial air transport pilots, and that is live now. You can fill in the survey here.
This survey will allow the researchers to identify the two most pressing “fatigue hotspots” out of a list of six.
BALPA and the European Cockpit Association (ECA) are encouraging you and pilots from across Europe to take part. This is your opportunity to ensure pilots' concerns are fed directly into EASA's review. We fought hard for this concession; don't let it slip by.
The survey closes on 11th April, so your input is needed as soon as possible.
Joined: Jul 2006
Aviation Qualifications: SLF
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From: Barcelona
Good to see feedback is being sought. I'd like to see further industrial pressure brought to bear on FTL regulation, rather than the usual depressed acceptance of "that's just the way it is". Some of the new rule sets under EASA are not safe.
Joined: Jun 2000
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From: last time I looked I was still here.
I always thought accidents occurred quite often at the end of an arduous knackering duty cycle, not at the beginning of the next one after 'an extended recovery period'. FTL's are about the safety of the current operation, primarily, and a guardian of the social life secondarily. Extended recovery time is a social life issue and only affects the safety of the following duty, when it might be too late.
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Joined: Mar 2007
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From: Here and there
For me last summer my periods of extended rest were just brief moments to partially recover. I don't think I fully recovered until some extended leave in late autumn. My wife will tell you that on the off periods I just wanted to sit quietly and not engage in life as I was too tired. Whilst I was doing this I was having to manage my sleep periods so that I could go back to the next run of earlies. I was no better than an automaton.
Fatigue is cummulative and I disagree that fatigue only occurs at the end of a run. I think I was most fatigued recently on day 3 of 5, but in the middle of a very intense block of almost ninety hours in a three week period.
Fatigue is cummulative and I disagree that fatigue only occurs at the end of a run. I think I was most fatigued recently on day 3 of 5, but in the middle of a very intense block of almost ninety hours in a three week period.
Joined: Jun 2000
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From: last time I looked I was still here.
I think I was most fatigued recently on day 3 of 5, but in the middle of a very intense block of almost ninety hours in a three week period.
90 in 3 is a killer. 100 in 4 means it should be spread reasonably evenly. Working like a dog for 20 days, then 8 off is not an honest solution, but the mathematics are legal. The same can be said of other combinations. There have been airlines who had a curious process of zeroing hours at various times in a year. I'd always believed any limits were rolling limits, just like my body/brain combination. I couldn't zero my tiredness. That trick may not be allowed anymore, but it shows the true attitude of the puppeteers. FTL's need a sensible human touch. Many are never that lucky. FTL's are productivity driven = money. EASA administrators are heavily lobbied by the financial gnomes. The debate is not a balance of forces. It needs to be. I have friends in the many of the more traditional airlines than I worked for. Annually they are as productive as I was, less tired, better remunerated and the companies make handsome profits. Where there is a will there is a way; and it needs discussion and agreement from both sides of the workforce. They work hard and are treated well.
Sadly we are not the only victims of the last 2 decades of industrial greed, there are so many others in a variety of industries.
I'm not a aficionado of labour practices, more of human behaviour; but I wonder if the general demise of unions and the rise of fat cats and all out financial power in a variety of industries is just a coincidence.
90 in 3 is a killer. 100 in 4 means it should be spread reasonably evenly. Working like a dog for 20 days, then 8 off is not an honest solution, but the mathematics are legal. The same can be said of other combinations. There have been airlines who had a curious process of zeroing hours at various times in a year. I'd always believed any limits were rolling limits, just like my body/brain combination. I couldn't zero my tiredness. That trick may not be allowed anymore, but it shows the true attitude of the puppeteers. FTL's need a sensible human touch. Many are never that lucky. FTL's are productivity driven = money. EASA administrators are heavily lobbied by the financial gnomes. The debate is not a balance of forces. It needs to be. I have friends in the many of the more traditional airlines than I worked for. Annually they are as productive as I was, less tired, better remunerated and the companies make handsome profits. Where there is a will there is a way; and it needs discussion and agreement from both sides of the workforce. They work hard and are treated well.
Sadly we are not the only victims of the last 2 decades of industrial greed, there are so many others in a variety of industries.
I'm not a aficionado of labour practices, more of human behaviour; but I wonder if the general demise of unions and the rise of fat cats and all out financial power in a variety of industries is just a coincidence.
Joined: Jul 2001
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From: UK
Tubby
It was more to the point that the ERRP in simple terms replaces days off under the old CAP371 rules e.g. 1 in 8 / 2 in 14 and 8 in 28. So under CAP when crew members sold their days off it was highly possible they would get days off in lieu as well as the $$ to maintain one or more of the days off requirements. Now though under EASA all you need is 36hrs and 1 local night to reset - This could be possible for example between a early and night. This now means that you could have a real run of work over 2 weeks and then you only need 60hrs and 2 local nights.
I doubt many UK airlines will roster this, and then if crew members sell $$$ the responsibility falls quietly on crew members responsibilites to manage their fatigue.
Would you please explain a bit further MrAP? I think that the description explains everything, it is just for recovery not to actually lead a social life.
I doubt many UK airlines will roster this, and then if crew members sell $$$ the responsibility falls quietly on crew members responsibilites to manage their fatigue.
Last edited by Mr Angry from Purley; 10th April 2017 at 17:33. Reason: guk speeak
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,643
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From: UK
EASA administrators are heavily lobbied by the financial gnomes
Your 20 years behind the times again. I had quiet a bit to do with EASA FTL / lobbying etc and I never took my bean counter with me - he was too busy with "smoke and mirrors"
I can't talk for other UK AOC's but apart from the ERRP highlighted above (their is no fatigue when $$ is mentioned) min rest away from base, and the changes to factorisation on 2 crew ETOPS flying (which I hope even you'll agree RAT was 20 years out of date although i do know you'd bring back FE's given the chance...) I've seen no real impact.
The worst impact seems to be the FDP available for early starts (I know your going to hate this under EU FTL that was in place for some time) and no limits on the numbers of early duties which unless you work for Easyjet is a real shock and #sympathy
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 163
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From: On the road
I personally highlighted that the fixation with acclimatisation shows how disconnected with reality the experts behind FTLs must have been. It's not uncommon to do 3 day trips with 24 hours off then 2 days off then rinse and repeat. It's shift work and in this case time zones have little to do with it. Every 24 hours rest is a reversal and 24 hours rest simply does not work with the human body to rest properly twice. Then on 2 days off you are not only meant to have magically recovered the lost nights sleep, but expected to then reverse back to days ready for the next. Do this 5 times a month and what do you expect.
A lot of research recognises that body clock reversal takes serious time. It's always been taught that with fatigue you can't restore missing sleep without getting it back somewhere properly - not an hour here and there on a seat, not an hour in an aeroplane bunk board, in a bed. Bodies aren't machine's that's why shifts generally work in patterns or runs. reversing the body each time you do a shift is about the most destructive thing you can do rest wise. Compound this with time off that is not fit to adjust and you have boil in a bag burn out.
In these enlightened times we also recognise that being sentient creatures humans relations and time outside of work have a huge impact on fatigue and stress levels. So I think the FTLs need to account for this rather than viewing rest/days off as a marathon of odd sleep patterns.
The times reader - I think your last remark was spot on the money
A lot of research recognises that body clock reversal takes serious time. It's always been taught that with fatigue you can't restore missing sleep without getting it back somewhere properly - not an hour here and there on a seat, not an hour in an aeroplane bunk board, in a bed. Bodies aren't machine's that's why shifts generally work in patterns or runs. reversing the body each time you do a shift is about the most destructive thing you can do rest wise. Compound this with time off that is not fit to adjust and you have boil in a bag burn out.
In these enlightened times we also recognise that being sentient creatures humans relations and time outside of work have a huge impact on fatigue and stress levels. So I think the FTLs need to account for this rather than viewing rest/days off as a marathon of odd sleep patterns.
The times reader - I think your last remark was spot on the money
