EK advertising on radio for pilots!
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Harry
I'm rather ashamed to say our BALPA representatives seem to use the exact same comparator airlines as BA management do. So Norwegian, Easy and Ryanair. I never hear BALPA seek to compare our package to legacy carriers in Europe, Middle/Far East, or the US!
Employer and union sing from a single song sheet!
Whilst there may not (yet) be an exodus from BA, far more people are moving elsewhere than I ever remember! The industry, or perhaps more accurately 'working for a living', appears to be in a downwards spiral!
The gap between workers and bosses can rarely have been greater in the modern age?
Perhaps we should console ourselves with the knowledge that we do at least remain as one of a group of more highly paid 'technical' workers? In reality we are just blue collar workers. Although there are white collar expectations of us?
I'm rather ashamed to say our BALPA representatives seem to use the exact same comparator airlines as BA management do. So Norwegian, Easy and Ryanair. I never hear BALPA seek to compare our package to legacy carriers in Europe, Middle/Far East, or the US!
Employer and union sing from a single song sheet!
Whilst there may not (yet) be an exodus from BA, far more people are moving elsewhere than I ever remember! The industry, or perhaps more accurately 'working for a living', appears to be in a downwards spiral!
The gap between workers and bosses can rarely have been greater in the modern age?
Perhaps we should console ourselves with the knowledge that we do at least remain as one of a group of more highly paid 'technical' workers? In reality we are just blue collar workers. Although there are white collar expectations of us?
Ref the pilot recruitment shortage, what have EK got against for example, a European aircrew Base? Surely that would attract people who do not want to live in Dubai.
Ok to visit but but not to live IMO!
Ok to visit but but not to live IMO!
What a great idea Pete. How should they start it, applicable only for new joiners, and piss the established pilot group off? Or allow those already employed to take a base, and still not attract newbies?
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Now I'm getting confused!
From previous posts, I thought the entire attraction of EK was tax free status? (money)
But now you're suggesting there'd be a flood of current EK pilots desperate to pay tax, yet still work for an ME carrier, that doesn't even count bunk time as duty???
From previous posts, I thought the entire attraction of EK was tax free status? (money)
But now you're suggesting there'd be a flood of current EK pilots desperate to pay tax, yet still work for an ME carrier, that doesn't even count bunk time as duty???
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If they based themselves in the UK, they'd have to pay UK employer taxes (NI etc) and abide by U.K. employment laws - one of which is 900 flying hours per year. 
... and £300k tax free is roughly equivalent in the UK to about £180k tax paid. Therefore it equates to a "tax free" UK salary versus BA.
... and £300k tax free is roughly equivalent in the UK to about £180k tax paid. Therefore it equates to a "tax free" UK salary versus BA.
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It appears that living in a certain European country, while working at BA, means you pay virtually no tax at all. All above board and with full declaration to the tax authorities of both countries. A significant number of people now live there, and easily commute to LHR for flying duties.
There's no point living in a
hole while you're earning the same dosh you could be back in civilised countries.
There's no point living in a
hole while you're earning the same dosh you could be back in civilised countries.
Be interesting to know which country......but maybe not ...
In any event FWIW you pay Full employees NI at BA, regardless of where you live, and even if you live outside the UK the HMRC will tax you on that proportion of your income earnt in the UK or UK airspace, so you are never going to be fully tax free.
There are some perhaps living in some principalties in Europe who legitimately pay no tax, there are alledgedly some living (perhaps under the radar) in places who have vague tax regimes, that is something that is perhaps easy for the singles to do and those with no kids but once you get family commitments it gets difficult if you are not fully embedded in the local system for healthcare, education, etc etc .
Many of the former tax "havens" have tightened up in the search for tax revenue, for example France started taxing foreign based aircrew a few years back, and certainly in many European countries you will be liable to their income tax as well as the UK's in some shape or form. Ultimately if anybody here is seriously thinking of joining BA + living in mainland Europe for tax purposes they need to take professional advice, not just the advice from someone who has heard a story from a guy that lives in XXX........and of course just to add to the mix there's the complication of Brexit, residence or not on mainland Europe for Brits and perhaps even complications on cross border working coming up.....
On another subject have to agree with 4468 that :
" BALPA representatives seem to use the exact same comparator airlines as BA management do. So Norwegian, Easy and Ryanair. I never hear BALPA seek to compare our package to legacy carriers in Europe, Middle/Far East, or the US!"
In any event FWIW you pay Full employees NI at BA, regardless of where you live, and even if you live outside the UK the HMRC will tax you on that proportion of your income earnt in the UK or UK airspace, so you are never going to be fully tax free.
There are some perhaps living in some principalties in Europe who legitimately pay no tax, there are alledgedly some living (perhaps under the radar) in places who have vague tax regimes, that is something that is perhaps easy for the singles to do and those with no kids but once you get family commitments it gets difficult if you are not fully embedded in the local system for healthcare, education, etc etc .
Many of the former tax "havens" have tightened up in the search for tax revenue, for example France started taxing foreign based aircrew a few years back, and certainly in many European countries you will be liable to their income tax as well as the UK's in some shape or form. Ultimately if anybody here is seriously thinking of joining BA + living in mainland Europe for tax purposes they need to take professional advice, not just the advice from someone who has heard a story from a guy that lives in XXX........and of course just to add to the mix there's the complication of Brexit, residence or not on mainland Europe for Brits and perhaps even complications on cross border working coming up.....
On another subject have to agree with 4468 that :
" BALPA representatives seem to use the exact same comparator airlines as BA management do. So Norwegian, Easy and Ryanair. I never hear BALPA seek to compare our package to legacy carriers in Europe, Middle/Far East, or the US!"
Last edited by wiggy; 24th Mar 2017 at 18:19.
It appears that living in a certain European country, while working at BA, means you pay virtually no tax at all. All above board and with full declaration to the tax authorities of both countries. A significant number of people now live there, and easily commute to LHR for flying duties.
ain't the one I live in.
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I hope people from HMRC are following this thread! To avoid paying tax by legal or illegal means implies you are a leach on society. Naturally I'm sure the people that do it will be falling over themselves to justify it that somehow it's different for them...
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Suggest we get back to the thread instead of getting sidetracked into the legitimate business of individuals who reside somewhere else and declare their tax there-wherever and whatever that jurisdiction is,jersey,iom,Guernsey,Switzerland,etc etc etc.the point is emirates aren't paying enough to attract what they need.
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Boeing 7E7
Do try restricting your comments to subjects with which you have knowledge. That way you don't have to come across as a total idiot!
Do try restricting your comments to subjects with which you have knowledge. That way you don't have to come across as a total idiot!
Last edited by 4468; 24th Mar 2017 at 22:39.
TightYorksherMan
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Commuting contracts and UK resident means you can wipe 40% in tax off the package making it completely pointless being there unless they up the money an extra 40% to make it worth while.
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Just to throw an observation point in regarding why BA comes up in threads about EK.
It's clear that most people in this thread are British, so BA is the most comparable operator.
Not to sure you can liken easyjet or Jet2, as their extensive long haul operations and fleets of A380 and B777 far exceed EK's!😜
So from a bystander point of view, BA is the only UK operation that can be compared for UK pilots. (Maybe Virgin if you squint your eyes a little)
It's clear that most people in this thread are British, so BA is the most comparable operator.
Not to sure you can liken easyjet or Jet2, as their extensive long haul operations and fleets of A380 and B777 far exceed EK's!😜
So from a bystander point of view, BA is the only UK operation that can be compared for UK pilots. (Maybe Virgin if you squint your eyes a little)
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As far as I understand it you can spend up to 90 days (or 120 days if you've not been UK resident for last 3yrs) if you have 2 ties (e.g. Family in UK and UK home). So 'IF' they were to offer a contract of 10 days off per month (for example), you won't obviously reach the 90 day limit until approx 9 months. After that I imagine holidays in somewhere other than the UK are a good idea!
I think you would also have to monitor your UK layover trips as there is a tie associated with that also.
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Jinkster
There are quite a few pilots here in EK that either have sufficient finances not to care or, don't care about their finances. The point being that I know personally of at least 5 individuals who have children in the UK and are finding it very difficult to see them. It may be because of divorce or simply that the wife hasn't settled or they prefer the education in the UK. Either way, this puts massive pressure on them and may be the catalyst for seeking alternative employment.
Despite the tax, the package would still be good compared to most UK operators, including BA, but money would not be their overriding priority. Emirates must grasp the fact that the dynamics of it's pilot workforce has changed over the years, as has the raison d'être for many wanting to leave. It prides itself on expensive and fancy PR advertising, promoting innovation and technology, yet fails to apply those same core values to it's very own staff. If it is genuine about acknowledging value in its staff, it's doing a poor job in showing it. These issues have not been building surreptitiously amongst the pilot force but have been evident for quite a few years. A strong and effective management team would have recognised this and acted accordingly. The Company, for one reason or another, choose to turn a blind eye. It's now reaping what it ignored. Highly experienced pilots from both seats are leaving unnecessarily and being replaced by good but inexperienced pilots. Pilots who will not cut their teeth on 4 short haul sectors a day with experienced Captains, but will face an extensive Worldwide network into some for the most challenging and busy environments ever. They will fly with some demotivated and less experienced Captains who may have spent 25% of their 5 years in EK sleeping in a bunk. Whilst the dilution of experience has undetermined consequences, the outlook is not positive.
The problem we face is that while current management and their policies will probably be gone in five years from now, the impact of those short term policies will remain. As pilots, we'll have to manage that.
And it's that, that scares me.
There are quite a few pilots here in EK that either have sufficient finances not to care or, don't care about their finances. The point being that I know personally of at least 5 individuals who have children in the UK and are finding it very difficult to see them. It may be because of divorce or simply that the wife hasn't settled or they prefer the education in the UK. Either way, this puts massive pressure on them and may be the catalyst for seeking alternative employment.
Despite the tax, the package would still be good compared to most UK operators, including BA, but money would not be their overriding priority. Emirates must grasp the fact that the dynamics of it's pilot workforce has changed over the years, as has the raison d'être for many wanting to leave. It prides itself on expensive and fancy PR advertising, promoting innovation and technology, yet fails to apply those same core values to it's very own staff. If it is genuine about acknowledging value in its staff, it's doing a poor job in showing it. These issues have not been building surreptitiously amongst the pilot force but have been evident for quite a few years. A strong and effective management team would have recognised this and acted accordingly. The Company, for one reason or another, choose to turn a blind eye. It's now reaping what it ignored. Highly experienced pilots from both seats are leaving unnecessarily and being replaced by good but inexperienced pilots. Pilots who will not cut their teeth on 4 short haul sectors a day with experienced Captains, but will face an extensive Worldwide network into some for the most challenging and busy environments ever. They will fly with some demotivated and less experienced Captains who may have spent 25% of their 5 years in EK sleeping in a bunk. Whilst the dilution of experience has undetermined consequences, the outlook is not positive.
The problem we face is that while current management and their policies will probably be gone in five years from now, the impact of those short term policies will remain. As pilots, we'll have to manage that.
And it's that, that scares me.