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SAS Ireland SAIL

Old 3rd Mar 2018, 09:54
  #281 (permalink)  
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Thanks Heavydane, I must say I couldn't imagine such an attitude coming from a major. This attitude of hating pilots and, still, being willing to run an airline is totally incomprehensible, certainly some form of mental illness.
Gubbi123, to answer your questions, I was looking for a job close to home. On paper, the operation looked promising and I can understand that SAS was trying to cut costs by dodging one of the most expensive and overprotective systems in the world when it comes to labour costs.Other systems exist in Europe where the labor cost is cheaper without being a rip off for the employee.
They hate pilots and they hate taxes, both of which is a major expense for them. Don't expect them to like one and not the other. There is no honour in this business.
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Old 3rd Mar 2018, 12:05
  #282 (permalink)  
 
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I can't agree more, 172. This job became a game of survival. No pleasure, no money, no future. Very punk indeed.
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Old 3rd Mar 2018, 12:58
  #283 (permalink)  
 
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3M

I am there too, but didnít volunteer for it (now Cityjet employee, former SAS Group). So I know what is is like, since SAS still offers ok conditions, but Cityjet donít. I will not complain, but just keep on looking for a better job....

Let me comment on that ďSAS hates pilotsĒ. IMHO that is not correct. SAS hates the strong unions, which makes it impossible to have a sound and strong company, earning money to the shareholders, let alone that most Co-Pilots on long haul earns 75-80.000 £ a year in basic salary, which is almost double of what the market dictates if is was not regulated by unions and Collective Agreements. And SAS hates the fact, that they have not been able to change the political level, so the tax level is the same for all European players on the market. This has undermining SAS business strategy for many years, but now the SAS board have had it. They will keep on outsourcing what ever they can, to SAIL, Cityjet, Regional OŁ, Air Nostrum, and other players like them.
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Old 3rd Mar 2018, 13:41
  #284 (permalink)  
 
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let alone that most Co-Pilots on long haul earns 75-80.000 £ a year in basic salary, which is almost double of what the market dictates if is was not regulated by unions and Collective Agreements.
I have no invested interest in either SAS or SAIL but that statement is incorrect.

From pay thread here in same forum:
VA FO 1st year £72K basic, £16K fixed flight pay and about £12K variable allowances.
In BA I think FOs start around £60K and tops out at £130 ish plus extras.
KLM Ä185K? AF similar? Even EasyJet FOs, so short haul FOs, on EU contracts should be able to reach almost Ä100K if not upgraded before.

CP
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Old 3rd Mar 2018, 14:07
  #285 (permalink)  
 
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Guppi,

I beg to differ.
The absolut strongest pilot union is USAlpa and the US carriers are literally printing money at the moment. Why? Because the airlines are more interested in making money than fighting with their key employees.
SAS LH foís have a minimum of 18 years seniority, hence the higher pay.
I have spent some years with the union at SAS and been in the room with several of the CEOís including the present one. Make no mistake, they hate us and our ability to stay organized. Thereby denying them the possibility to intimidate and threaten us the way the could in the 1930.

Regards
Heavydane
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Old 3rd Mar 2018, 16:56
  #286 (permalink)  
 
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Cap prop, hd is correct, that the high pay is due to the high seniority. And it is 75-80 £ on LH in SAS.

But I also believe that 75-80/year is almost the double of what the market dictates; just look at what pilots accept in Norwegian LH,with European base.

Not saying that the long haul Co Pilots does not deserve their salary. How can I judge that....?
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Old 3rd Mar 2018, 16:58
  #287 (permalink)  
 
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I didnít say that the quoted pay was wrong, just that itís not above market rates at all and I proved the argument by stating other LH FO pay rates.

CP
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Old 3rd Mar 2018, 18:42
  #288 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by CaptainProp View Post
I have no invested interest in either SAS or SAIL but that statement is incorrect.

From pay thread here in same forum:
VA FO 1st year £72K basic, £16K fixed flight pay and about £12K variable allowances.
In BA I think FOs start around £60K and tops out at £130 ish plus extras.
KLM Ä185K? AF similar? Even EasyJet FOs, so short haul FOs, on EU contracts should be able to reach almost Ä100K if not upgraded before.

CP
The 72k basic at VA includes the fixed pay. Additional pay is about £6k a year paid on to a special card supposiably used for down Route spending.

Year 1 BA FO is about 60k with another 12 to 15 added on.
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Old 3rd Mar 2018, 19:09
  #289 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Enzo999 View Post
The 72k basic at VA includes the fixed pay. Additional pay is about £6k a year paid on to a special card supposiably used for down Route spending.

Year 1 BA FO is about 60k with another 12 to 15 added on.
spot on Enzo
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Old 3rd Mar 2018, 19:58
  #290 (permalink)  
 
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My point remains, SAS LH FO pay is not higher than what other major airline FOs are making flying LH operations.

CP
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Old 3rd Mar 2018, 20:32
  #291 (permalink)  
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Longhaul and shorthaul pilots in SAS are on the same pay scale... but it's not that easy. All longhaul FOs today were hired before a B-scale was introduced so the quoted £75-80k per year may be true. However after the reconciliation of the A and B scale, which in itself led to industrial action, FOs are subject to a salary cap which reduces the final FO pay significantly. In effect, a long haul FO in 15-20 years will not see £75-80k even (if nothing changes..). One could argue that due to the high employer social security in Sweden a given gross salary is worth more there than in the UK for instance. I am thinking what's part of the parcel being a citizen in Sweden. Free nursery, university, health care, paid parental leave and so on...... You don't join SAS mainline to be rich, you join them to enjoy a fairly comfortable lifestyle. My 2 cents.
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Old 4th Mar 2018, 05:45
  #292 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by gubbi123 View Post
let alone that most Co-Pilots on long haul earns 75-80.000 £ a year in basic salary, which is almost double of what the market dictates if is was not regulated by unions and Collective Agreements.
My point also remains.

And true that future Co-Pilots in SAS, can expext to be lower paid than other legacy company pilots.
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Old 4th Mar 2018, 05:53
  #293 (permalink)  
 
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Another thing is that once SAIL malaga base will be open the pay deal and roster will be even worse than uk...

6/3 roster with overnights in scandinavia operating SAS routes and seems like unions are not doing anything about it...
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Old 4th Mar 2018, 07:26
  #294 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by SE210 View Post
I just want to mention Air Baltic.

Serious company, good training, good management.

They offer around 9000 Euros gross on the Q400 as a captain - with tax in Latvia that means round 7000 Euros net.

The job is not super-suited for commuting, but one will get un-limited home leave tickets and ID tickets for oneself, spouse and children. Health insurance after probation period and loss of licence after one year.

They are going to start an ab intio school to face pilot shortage in the future.

All in all a company, that does not fight it's employees.
I dont understand the meaning of this post.
Air Baltic for what i know was one of the p2f schemes starters in Europe.
Completely irrelevant to this thread.
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Old 4th Mar 2018, 07:32
  #295 (permalink)  
 
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Haha....Ok, only thing is its NOT double pay. I rest my case.

CP
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Old 4th Mar 2018, 09:40
  #296 (permalink)  
 
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Just the fact that BIT offers a higher salary for flying a Q400 in a country with low living expenses, than flying an Airbus out of London.
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Old 4th Mar 2018, 10:21
  #297 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by SE210 View Post
Just the fact that BIT offers a higher salary for flying a Q400 in a country with low living expenses, than flying an Airbus out of London.
I am pretty sure that they pay much less.
This is from ppjn

Capt top E5430 before tax
Capt base E4590 before tax
FO top Ä3100 NET (Up to 60hrs
FO base Ä2700 NET (Up to 60hrs
SO top
Training Programm: 17500Ä for 500h/600h after doing your TR with AB

Anyway. Still off topic
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Old 4th Mar 2018, 11:53
  #298 (permalink)  
 
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Itís a bit sad where SAS has transformed into during the past years.

With multi-union system in Scandinavia failing to negotiate with the company the results are obvious. All the young guys sold out by older colleagues, B-scales created, even more subcontractors with social dumping etc.

I think we can all agree that what happened wasnít that pilots or company hated each others even tho it had something to do with it, but the fact that both parties failed miserably to change when everything changed around them. Now they are desperately trying to hold on what they have or reach something they would like to have.

When they were supposed to work together and change things back to sustainable they continued arguing even more. Aviation industry evolved, SAS didnít.

As I said earlier, itís really sad and hopefully other companies and unions can learn something from this. As long as this continue SAS will have the cheapest pilots in Europe.
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Old 4th Mar 2018, 12:48
  #299 (permalink)  
 
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No GScapture, we canīt agree on that!

The company demanded a B-scale in the period of some 10 years when SAS didnīt hire any new pilots. The unions were forced to accept it, but when new pilots started being hired again, the unions managed to get rid of the B-scale. This was done at the expence of the older guys.
So much for selling out younger guys, right!

The company has been union busting for years and years, and the unions have been played out against each other. They have been more or less power less and had no way of stopping SAIL, etc, etc.
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Old 4th Mar 2018, 16:44
  #300 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Raski View Post
I am pretty sure that they pay much less.
This is from ppjn

Capt top E5430 before tax
Capt base E4590 before tax
FO top Ä3100 NET (Up to 60hrs
FO base Ä2700 NET (Up to 60hrs
SO top
Training Programm: 17500Ä for 500h/600h after doing your TR with AB

Anyway. Still off topic
The pay scheme I have seen includes bonus and dividend, whereby the gross salary for captains reach +9000 euros.

I do not say, that Air Baltic is perfect, but they react and adapt, when they have to.

The idea of SAS Ireland is out of sync. They could have gotten away with it five years ago, but now every company is screaming for pilots. Primarily Easyjet will absorb any good vacant Airbuspilot in Europe.
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