Wide Body requirements for long haul query
Thread Starter
Joined: Jul 2008
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From: Where the company needs me not where I want to be!
Wide Body requirements for long haul query
This may be the wrong forum.
But I was thinking about wide body jobs. Mainly 777 and 787 direct entry requirements in the middle east and Asia and how they generally require around 6000TT and 1000 Wide Body PIC
Having not flown a wide body forgive my potentially dumb question. Is it really that big a difference between an A320 to the A330/340 and Boeing 738 to a 777 or 787?
I cant imagine a captain with thousands of hours PIC on the smaller bird really struggling after doing a type rating and line training to land the thing.
Is there more to it? Can anyone who has flown both comment.
But I was thinking about wide body jobs. Mainly 777 and 787 direct entry requirements in the middle east and Asia and how they generally require around 6000TT and 1000 Wide Body PIC
Having not flown a wide body forgive my potentially dumb question. Is it really that big a difference between an A320 to the A330/340 and Boeing 738 to a 777 or 787?
I cant imagine a captain with thousands of hours PIC on the smaller bird really struggling after doing a type rating and line training to land the thing.
Is there more to it? Can anyone who has flown both comment.
Joined: Jul 1999
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From: Out of a Suitcase
Having not flown a wide body forgive my potentially dumb question. Is it really that big a difference between an A320 to the A330/340 and Boeing 738 to a 777 or 787?
Long haul flying requires a lot more focus on flight planning and entry requirements as you cross various countries.
Entry requirements at various Airlines may be a Local CAA requirement that the Airline has no control over.
Joined: Mar 2001
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From: I wouldn't know.
From the experience in my company there were quite a few issues with short haul captains transitioning to long haul flying. Not the flying itself, that is easy enough and usually easier on the big bird. However, the whole long haul stuff, route experience etc. required more training than was initially expected. There were a lot complaints about the first few who did a very rudimentary training and especially a short LIFUS phase. Later on training was improved and LIFUS was extended by a lot which fixed those issues.
Not really a big thing, but the right training is required, and i would expect airlines that fly predominantly long haul should have that in place.
Not really a big thing, but the right training is required, and i would expect airlines that fly predominantly long haul should have that in place.
Joined: Feb 2001
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From: The Winchester
What Denti said.
With the right training and an open mind you can even transition from a lightweight mil trainer straight onto the 747 (with about 3000 hours total)...but you need to accept there's a massive culture change, and a massive change in the operating enviroment, and also that bleating "but that's not how we did it on/at XXXX" doesn't win you friends in the training department.
With the right training and an open mind you can even transition from a lightweight mil trainer straight onto the 747 (with about 3000 hours total)...but you need to accept there's a massive culture change, and a massive change in the operating enviroment, and also that bleating "but that's not how we did it on/at XXXX" doesn't win you friends in the training department.
Joined: Nov 2006
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From: In the real world
The flying is actually easier, the 787 is so automated it in every respect that anyone could transition from say a 73 with little fuss.
The flight management on the other hand is completely different. We have lots of guys moving from short haul flying where a suitable diversion is never more than a few minutes away to long haul flying where the only alternate is 2 hours away and guess what.... it's now 25 knots across in a snow storm oh and there's unlikely to be any hotels available for the punters!!
I'm not saying that it's particularly difficult however, the training required is different and maybe some operators just don't have the capacity for extended ETOPS courses when they can just recruit experienced guys from day one.
Cheers
The flight management on the other hand is completely different. We have lots of guys moving from short haul flying where a suitable diversion is never more than a few minutes away to long haul flying where the only alternate is 2 hours away and guess what.... it's now 25 knots across in a snow storm oh and there's unlikely to be any hotels available for the punters!!
I'm not saying that it's particularly difficult however, the training required is different and maybe some operators just don't have the capacity for extended ETOPS courses when they can just recruit experienced guys from day one.
Cheers
Mach 3
Joined: Aug 1998
Posts: 624
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From: Stratosphere
The flight management on the other hand is completely different. We have lots of guys moving from short haul flying where a suitable diversion is never more than a few minutes away to long haul flying where the only alternate is 2 hours away and guess what.... it's now 25 knots across in a snow storm oh and there's unlikely to be any hotels available for the punters!!
I've never understood why having only one or two alternates versus numerous alternates makes your job harder... Guess what? IMO, when you haven't got a large choice, the decision is a hell of a lot easier!
What the weather is doing at your alternate/diversion/emergency field is a consideration whether it's 5 mins away or 3 hrs away so that part of the equation is also exactly the same. Make a good decision with all the facts to hand...and that includes what you're going to do with 1/2/3/400 passengers.
So, having done both the SH and LH thing, I'd agree the transition from SH to LH is quite straightforward with the right training.
Joined: Sep 2016
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From: N/A
Zero to Hero: I used to do 'Long Haul', and the name is exactly as I see it.
A long haul, that you have to drag you worn out sorry arse over.
I don't find it much fun flying on the back side of the clock, criss crossing oceans, fighting fatigue and hostile territories.
If I ever miss it, I sit in a closet all night with just a night light to keep me company.
That's why I went back to short haul, where I do as little as possible.
All I really enjoy is the take-off and landings anyway.
After about an hour I'm ready to land.
I take it, your in Britain?
So maybe Thomas Cook would be your first choice as they have both long and short haul.
Also I saw a Jet2Holidays last week in America.
I'm always surprised by the number of people who choose Ryanair/Easyjet over Thomas Cook/Monarch/Jet2 etc where you have a choice of flying.
As a youngster your likely impressed with the idea of being a B-737 F/O at 19 and a Captain at 25 with Ryan/Easy.
We'll from 25 to 65 repeat every week for 40 years and you'll get my point.
If you ever do long haul, do it when you are young.
Once you are married with children, they take priority.
A long haul schedule will mean you will likely miss every birthday and anniversary.
It is also VERY hard on a marriage, as the five day or 5000 mile rule often applies.
A long haul, that you have to drag you worn out sorry arse over.
I don't find it much fun flying on the back side of the clock, criss crossing oceans, fighting fatigue and hostile territories.
If I ever miss it, I sit in a closet all night with just a night light to keep me company.
That's why I went back to short haul, where I do as little as possible.
All I really enjoy is the take-off and landings anyway.
After about an hour I'm ready to land.
I take it, your in Britain?
So maybe Thomas Cook would be your first choice as they have both long and short haul.
Also I saw a Jet2Holidays last week in America.
I'm always surprised by the number of people who choose Ryanair/Easyjet over Thomas Cook/Monarch/Jet2 etc where you have a choice of flying.
As a youngster your likely impressed with the idea of being a B-737 F/O at 19 and a Captain at 25 with Ryan/Easy.
We'll from 25 to 65 repeat every week for 40 years and you'll get my point.
If you ever do long haul, do it when you are young.
Once you are married with children, they take priority.
A long haul schedule will mean you will likely miss every birthday and anniversary.
It is also VERY hard on a marriage, as the five day or 5000 mile rule often applies.
Joined: Feb 1999
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From: UK
As with everything, there are some who like it, some who hate the long haul lifestyle. Having spent over 10 years on SH, I can honestly say I'll never willingly return to fly SH.
LH has its challenges, but then so does SH. The tiredness is perhaps different, as you're often getting up at midnight to go to work, and there are several nights a month sitting in the seat. On the other hand, if you can get the hang of controlled rest, and being able to sleep at odd hours of the day, it's perfectly manageable. I know there are people who just can't adjust to the change in sleep patterns, and these often return to SH.
From a flying perspective, being a long way from a suitable diversion airfield and coping with the complete lack of radio and radar coverage in some parts of the world takes a bit of getting used to. You're definitely on your own in certain areas.
The jets of course are bigger. But really it's just another machine to fly. No big deal.
LH has its challenges, but then so does SH. The tiredness is perhaps different, as you're often getting up at midnight to go to work, and there are several nights a month sitting in the seat. On the other hand, if you can get the hang of controlled rest, and being able to sleep at odd hours of the day, it's perfectly manageable. I know there are people who just can't adjust to the change in sleep patterns, and these often return to SH.
From a flying perspective, being a long way from a suitable diversion airfield and coping with the complete lack of radio and radar coverage in some parts of the world takes a bit of getting used to. You're definitely on your own in certain areas.
The jets of course are bigger. But really it's just another machine to fly. No big deal.
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 6,726
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From: The Winchester
If you ever do long haul, do it when you are young.
Once you are married with children, they take priority.
A long haul schedule will mean you will likely miss every birthday and anniversary.
Once you are married with children, they take priority.
A long haul schedule will mean you will likely miss every birthday and anniversary.
If you are doing SH and home every night you're probably right...but if OTOH you do SH with rosters that include nightstops and multiday tours you might as well be on LH, and of course there are the dreaded SH earlies/lates/ long duty day - I certainly know where I work many would skip from SH to LH in a blink of an eye because the poor short haul life style.
I've probably "made" and also "missed" just as many birthdays and anniversaries as my SH colleagues.
Joined: Sep 2016
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From: N/A
My airlines definition of Long Haul is a little different that most airlines.
Most airlines long haul is 'out and back', just to see how far it is.
Ours are mostly 12-14 day 'Around the World' trips on the 'Supers'.
You bounce from pillar to post like a shuttle cock.
You end up not knowing if your coming or going.
There are some inter theater trips on the 'Heavies'.
But looking at the state of people returning from a 12-14 day Pacific Rim trip they look like death warmed over.
The Pacific isn't terrific, when your flying eight hours a day.
They tell me it takes them a week to 'straighten out' when they return home.
There are some shorter trips on the North Atlantic with multiple crossings, but mostly they are at least a week to ten days in length minimum.
Same for the Deep South America trips.
People say that flying North - South wont mess you up, but I think it does, just not as bad.
But with wife and kids to consider It's not really about me anymore.
My airlines definition of Short Haul is a little different than most airlines too.
With most airlines Short Haul, your driving to the airport, what must seem like everyday.
With long duty days and no layovers.
No wonder your exhausted.
But with us, our Short Haul are again mostly week long trips with two short flights each day to interrupt our layover.
It's like a five day mini break with some flying thrown it.
There is both day time flying, night time flying, early morning and afternoon trips.
You find your niche, with what ever works best for you.
But with us, it all pays the same, no matter what you do, or where you go.
No wonder I refer to it as a 'Gentleman's Flying Club'.
Most airlines long haul is 'out and back', just to see how far it is.
Ours are mostly 12-14 day 'Around the World' trips on the 'Supers'.
You bounce from pillar to post like a shuttle cock.
You end up not knowing if your coming or going.
There are some inter theater trips on the 'Heavies'.
But looking at the state of people returning from a 12-14 day Pacific Rim trip they look like death warmed over.
The Pacific isn't terrific, when your flying eight hours a day.
They tell me it takes them a week to 'straighten out' when they return home.
There are some shorter trips on the North Atlantic with multiple crossings, but mostly they are at least a week to ten days in length minimum.
Same for the Deep South America trips.
People say that flying North - South wont mess you up, but I think it does, just not as bad.
But with wife and kids to consider It's not really about me anymore.
My airlines definition of Short Haul is a little different than most airlines too.
With most airlines Short Haul, your driving to the airport, what must seem like everyday.
With long duty days and no layovers.
No wonder your exhausted.
But with us, our Short Haul are again mostly week long trips with two short flights each day to interrupt our layover.
It's like a five day mini break with some flying thrown it.
There is both day time flying, night time flying, early morning and afternoon trips.
You find your niche, with what ever works best for you.
But with us, it all pays the same, no matter what you do, or where you go.
No wonder I refer to it as a 'Gentleman's Flying Club'.
Last edited by button push ignored; 2nd February 2017 at 03:54.
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 4,777
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From: Blighty
Circadian rhythms get stronger with age, which makes LH a young person's game. But it tends to be the domain of seniority - driving those poor b's into an early grave. I gave LH up at age 44 - it was killing me.
Chose the job that gives you the best lifestyle first, cash second and never ever because of the aircraft type.
Chose the job that gives you the best lifestyle first, cash second and never ever because of the aircraft type.
