Always one that's worse
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From: Up north
Always one that's worse
Lots of complaining here about bad pay but these guys are really taking the pi**!
That's €4300 plus some change for 20 days work!!! AFTER you have been on half pay to "pay back your COMPANY OPC"!!! And they are expanding so apparently getting people to sign up....crazy...
CP
On behalf of our client, a European leisure carrier, we are now recruiting A320 Captains to be based in Manchester (MAN), London Gatwick (LGW) and Vatry (XCR) for the summer season.
Daily Salary: 216EUR
Payment over 75BH: 109.50EUR per BH
Per Diems: 47.50EUR per 24hrs out of base
Work of Day Off: 90EUR
Until OPC is paid, only ½ salary paid
Daily Salary: 216EUR
Payment over 75BH: 109.50EUR per BH
Per Diems: 47.50EUR per 24hrs out of base
Work of Day Off: 90EUR
Until OPC is paid, only ½ salary paid
CP
Last edited by CaptainProp; 4th January 2016 at 21:31.
Thread Starter
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From: Up north
JB007 
As a question to the greater pilot fraternity in Europe - Why are there still people accepting these terms and conditions? I presume it's pay without pension, no private health insurance, perhaps no insurance at all for that matter, no social security payments made anywhere so that needs to be taken off the basic "pay".... Why?
CP
As a question to the greater pilot fraternity in Europe - Why are there still people accepting these terms and conditions? I presume it's pay without pension, no private health insurance, perhaps no insurance at all for that matter, no social security payments made anywhere so that needs to be taken off the basic "pay".... Why?
CP
PPRuNe Secret Agent!
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From: West Sussex, UK
In the present climate of positive recruitment, I can't see why folk would except this. I personally excepted appalling T&C's from a UK airline when I needed to pay the mortgage, thankfully only needed 6 months before a return to much happier times but then that's all Small Planet would be interested in anyway! 'Bum in a Seat' for a busy summer!
Or maybe this guy:
These guys in Latvia, or is it Lithuania? are operating on a very low cost base and expanding very quickly with 'mass' ACMI! easyJet and Thomas Cook in Summer 2016 in the UK!
Or maybe this guy:
Currently skipper in the sandpit and feeling rather exhausted with 24/7 Ops and multiple monthly day to night to day roster changes!
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From: Sky
With the likes of Jet2, EZY, RYR etc offering better pay and still not being able to get the right people in big enough quantities I can only think that they must not only lower the pay but also the standards! 
Trying to get low pay fo´s works as long as you have proper bums in the LHS. Getting low cost Capt´s will only push your insurnace up but for all the wrong reasons
Trying to get low pay fo´s works as long as you have proper bums in the LHS. Getting low cost Capt´s will only push your insurnace up but for all the wrong reasons
Joined: Jan 2015
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From: Centre of Universe
You would assume UK AOC that use such airlines would pick this up on audit and have a real think about the cost benefits of using such outfits. They are either driving a very hard bargain on acmi rates or these airlines are taking the wonga and using their employees on the cheap.
I was in Paris for the air show in the summer and used the cheapest of cheapest airport hotels. It was a room no more and vending machines.
There was a airline there with its crews staying there. I'll never ENTER there again
Fact is commercial guys just want cheapest acmi which probably equates to bigger bonus.
I was in Paris for the air show in the summer and used the cheapest of cheapest airport hotels. It was a room no more and vending machines.
There was a airline there with its crews staying there. I'll never ENTER there again
Fact is commercial guys just want cheapest acmi which probably equates to bigger bonus.
Joined: Feb 2015
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From: Spain
I thought this might pop up on here and I'd just like to say, since we have been asked to source Captains for them as well, is that my company does not dictate their salary levels.
We are not an agency who pay the Captain's salaries and we work with what we are given (info only - not budget). My company is a traditional recruitment firm and we find people for our client to hire (how they do that is up to them).
I have gone back to them stating the figures are very low and am awaiting a response.
It is frustrating and as I wrote before, I have relayed this to them.
We work with airlines and aviation companies globally in providing traditional recruitment services. We provide the interested applicants, they decide and hire. If they hire, they pay us a fee. With pilot & cabin crew recruitment, it is not a fee based on percentage of salary, rather a fixed fee per successful placement. This has no impact on what pilots are paid as we are not a contract crewing agency.
I just wanted to put this out there before someone then starts slating my firm. We have placed quite a few people with this airline in various roles (not just flight crew) so whilst we don't decide what people are paid, we do give them feedback. However, it is up to them what they do and not us.
Whilst writing this, I just received another e-mail from them that at this point, salaries are still to be confirmed so hopefully will improve.
We are not an agency who pay the Captain's salaries and we work with what we are given (info only - not budget). My company is a traditional recruitment firm and we find people for our client to hire (how they do that is up to them).
I have gone back to them stating the figures are very low and am awaiting a response.
It is frustrating and as I wrote before, I have relayed this to them.
We work with airlines and aviation companies globally in providing traditional recruitment services. We provide the interested applicants, they decide and hire. If they hire, they pay us a fee. With pilot & cabin crew recruitment, it is not a fee based on percentage of salary, rather a fixed fee per successful placement. This has no impact on what pilots are paid as we are not a contract crewing agency.
I just wanted to put this out there before someone then starts slating my firm. We have placed quite a few people with this airline in various roles (not just flight crew) so whilst we don't decide what people are paid, we do give them feedback. However, it is up to them what they do and not us.
Whilst writing this, I just received another e-mail from them that at this point, salaries are still to be confirmed so hopefully will improve.
Last edited by LimitlessRK; 7th January 2016 at 13:48.
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From: In my seat
I can almost guarantee that for that "fee", the only Captains willing to accept either are totally incompetent and thus desperate for a job as they failed anywhere else, or are fakers with virtual hours, logbooks etc...
Time to contact the CAA to warn them of the potential danger...
Smallplanet= Small brains it seems.
Time to contact the CAA to warn them of the potential danger...
Smallplanet= Small brains it seems.
Joined: Feb 2015
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From: Spain
despegue - The only people who take that job are the ones willing to accept that job and pay which is why they are offered. Which is why we have given them feedback on salaries and why they are not acceptable from the feedback we have received from Captains I have approached.
We don't charge fees until someone starts and we can't force someone to accept a job. Doesn't work like that. It is called contingency based recruitment and therefore if no one gets a job we don't charge a fee. As I wrote before, we are not a crewing agency so we don't decide the salaries and we are not given a budget by the operator and we decide what we pay flight crew.
Last year, we didn't place one pilot with them because we could not find anyone willing to go for those salaries, but I am sure they must have found them somewhere which is why they are offering them again. We only placed cabin crew with them last year and their pay was on par with other similar operations so it wasn't such an issue. We have placed pilots elsewhere with very good salaries and of course that is the best scenario!
It is a shame but if people accept these conditions then they will continue to be offered by certain companies.
I was just giving my input on how my company works. I cannot comment on other crew management agencies etc as that is not my business. Our main business revenue comes from management placements and the executive aviation market where Pilots & Cabin Crew are paid very well. As Hawker 800 wrote in this thread, VVIP Flight Attendants are paid more and I know we have VVIP clients who pay Flight Attendants over $5,000USD/month + acc etc.
We don't charge fees until someone starts and we can't force someone to accept a job. Doesn't work like that. It is called contingency based recruitment and therefore if no one gets a job we don't charge a fee. As I wrote before, we are not a crewing agency so we don't decide the salaries and we are not given a budget by the operator and we decide what we pay flight crew.
Last year, we didn't place one pilot with them because we could not find anyone willing to go for those salaries, but I am sure they must have found them somewhere which is why they are offering them again. We only placed cabin crew with them last year and their pay was on par with other similar operations so it wasn't such an issue. We have placed pilots elsewhere with very good salaries and of course that is the best scenario!
It is a shame but if people accept these conditions then they will continue to be offered by certain companies.
I was just giving my input on how my company works. I cannot comment on other crew management agencies etc as that is not my business. Our main business revenue comes from management placements and the executive aviation market where Pilots & Cabin Crew are paid very well. As Hawker 800 wrote in this thread, VVIP Flight Attendants are paid more and I know we have VVIP clients who pay Flight Attendants over $5,000USD/month + acc etc.
Last edited by LimitlessRK; 7th January 2016 at 14:12.
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From: Up north
I can see your point that business is business and if you find candidates willing to accept these T&Cs then that's you done and you have no further involvement in the employment as such.
Having said that, if it was my company being approached by companies clearly involved in social dumping (my personal opinion of course) then I would say thanks for contacting us but we are not interested in doing business with you. Not running a bussines myself, but have several friends that do and they only work with companies that offer their employees industry standard or above T&Cs. They are all very successful in what they do. One of them ran his business with very modest profits for a long time as a result of the higher costs. However, once he had made a name for himself and his company's way of doing business he secured big contracts with some of the worlds biggest companies as a direct result of his "policies"....
I guess what I'm saying is that we always have a choice.
CP
Having said that, if it was my company being approached by companies clearly involved in social dumping (my personal opinion of course) then I would say thanks for contacting us but we are not interested in doing business with you. Not running a bussines myself, but have several friends that do and they only work with companies that offer their employees industry standard or above T&Cs. They are all very successful in what they do. One of them ran his business with very modest profits for a long time as a result of the higher costs. However, once he had made a name for himself and his company's way of doing business he secured big contracts with some of the worlds biggest companies as a direct result of his "policies"....
I guess what I'm saying is that we always have a choice.
CP
Joined: Feb 2015
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From: Spain
CaptainProp
I have been in this business for 18yrs successfully and pride myself on the recommendations I have had and of course, the repeat business for major international companies who wanted to continue with me even when I set up my own business in 2014.
We don't place and forget. That is no way to do business or get repeat business. We also provide a guarantee period to companies that hire staff from us.
As I wrote, we didn't find people last year who were interested and I don't expect we will this year, but we try. However, this year I am more vocal in going back to the client and giving them feedback on their tentative offered pay conditions. As I wrote, we have not placed pilots with them but have done so with cabin crew and other "office based" staff where pay conditions have been comparable to other companies in those areas.
Choice is everything and this is why people choose to continue to come back to my company. I have cut ties with two clients in the last 12 months who have caused issues with candidates we have presented in the past as I don't want to be associated with companies like that and also, I don't work for free.
We have terms signed with companies and we offer to assist with positions. If we feel salaries are not good enough, we advise them on this. But, the fact remains, they must have filled their left & right hand seats last year (even though we didn't assist with that because we I don't have anyone in our database who would work for that) and because of this, then I guess they feel, if they did it last year, it is possible this year.
I have been in this business for 18yrs successfully and pride myself on the recommendations I have had and of course, the repeat business for major international companies who wanted to continue with me even when I set up my own business in 2014.
We don't place and forget. That is no way to do business or get repeat business. We also provide a guarantee period to companies that hire staff from us.
As I wrote, we didn't find people last year who were interested and I don't expect we will this year, but we try. However, this year I am more vocal in going back to the client and giving them feedback on their tentative offered pay conditions. As I wrote, we have not placed pilots with them but have done so with cabin crew and other "office based" staff where pay conditions have been comparable to other companies in those areas.
Choice is everything and this is why people choose to continue to come back to my company. I have cut ties with two clients in the last 12 months who have caused issues with candidates we have presented in the past as I don't want to be associated with companies like that and also, I don't work for free.
We have terms signed with companies and we offer to assist with positions. If we feel salaries are not good enough, we advise them on this. But, the fact remains, they must have filled their left & right hand seats last year (even though we didn't assist with that because we I don't have anyone in our database who would work for that) and because of this, then I guess they feel, if they did it last year, it is possible this year.
Last edited by LimitlessRK; 7th January 2016 at 16:07.
Joined: Feb 2015
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From: Spain
CaptainProp
***My first response is being moderated, not sure why.... ***
One more point, we do choose who we work for, we are not desperate for business and therefore don't represent just anyone. With Small Planet, as an example, we were asked to recruit Cabin Crew for them initially over a year ago. We did that, salaries weren't great but okay and comparable. Pilots, we didn't place anyone with them last year. But, we have placed 2 managers with them in Poland and Germany and am working on another management role with them at present which is in final stages.
I can't imagine we will place any Pilots with them this year either. But, should we have someone then of course I will send their details to them as they are my client. But, also, be aware that I have also explained to them that the figures they have initially given us are far too low.
***My first response is being moderated, not sure why.... ***
One more point, we do choose who we work for, we are not desperate for business and therefore don't represent just anyone. With Small Planet, as an example, we were asked to recruit Cabin Crew for them initially over a year ago. We did that, salaries weren't great but okay and comparable. Pilots, we didn't place anyone with them last year. But, we have placed 2 managers with them in Poland and Germany and am working on another management role with them at present which is in final stages.
I can't imagine we will place any Pilots with them this year either. But, should we have someone then of course I will send their details to them as they are my client. But, also, be aware that I have also explained to them that the figures they have initially given us are far too low.
Last edited by LimitlessRK; 7th January 2016 at 14:02. Reason: Replied twice but only one reply showing presently
Joined: Aug 2014
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From: Sand free now
I think it refreshing to read an honest and straight forward opinion offered by someone prepared not to hide behind the cloak of anonymity. The salaries offered by Small Planet are an insult and the view offered is that the agency will not place anyone at this rate. Lets just hope this remains the case.
Joined: Feb 2015
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From: Spain
JaxofMarlow
Thanks.
When we got sent this info by them, we sent it out to some A320 Captains on our database, this was then followed up today with an additional e-mail that the figures given to us were not final yet and they are open to feedback. We share all our requirements and I am always aware they might end up here which is why I check this forum from time to time.
To be honest, they will probably get their pilots from the same sources they did last year or use the same crew? I don't know exactly but what I do know is that in 2015 they didn't have any pilots from us, only cabin crew.
Thanks.
When we got sent this info by them, we sent it out to some A320 Captains on our database, this was then followed up today with an additional e-mail that the figures given to us were not final yet and they are open to feedback. We share all our requirements and I am always aware they might end up here which is why I check this forum from time to time.
To be honest, they will probably get their pilots from the same sources they did last year or use the same crew? I don't know exactly but what I do know is that in 2015 they didn't have any pilots from us, only cabin crew.
Thread Starter
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From: Up north
LimitlessRK, read your first reply to my post now and I also think it's great to be able to discuss these things and get views from both sides of the fence for a change. In the end it's not your fault that the terms and conditions for pilots in Europe are still going down, it's us, the pilots, who are to blame for that.
It will be interesting to see how long this will continue though. Pretty much every airline in Europe is hiring, or is about to hire, and still we're seeing virtually no improvement in T&Cs. Different story in Asia and the US.
CP
It will be interesting to see how long this will continue though. Pretty much every airline in Europe is hiring, or is about to hire, and still we're seeing virtually no improvement in T&Cs. Different story in Asia and the US.
CP
