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Ryanair and Brookfield in the news again

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Ryanair and Brookfield in the news again

Old 14th Dec 2015, 16:16
  #1 (permalink)  
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Ryanair and Brookfield in the news again

Ryanair and Brookfield in the news again.

Ryanair and Brookfield embroiled in tax evasion investigation and 'letterbox company' allegations

My opinions on this are just my options but I left for that very reason and put them squarely in my rear view mirror where I want to keep them.
zerotohero is offline  
Old 15th Dec 2015, 13:53
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Looking forward to the day that the most obvious tax evasion scheme in aviation is put to bed....

Next step is that the "friendly"airline becomes a normal employer with staff that has the right to have a proper union to represent them
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Old 15th Dec 2015, 14:26
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Will watch this unfold with pleasure.
McBruce is offline  
Old 15th Dec 2015, 17:37
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It is not often my heart is warmed by good news on PPRuNe, but this is definitely one of those occasions.
Count of Monte Bisto is offline  
Old 15th Dec 2015, 17:56
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Let's hope this finally catches up with them. And that Norwegian are next in the firing line.

(The sad thing is that they'll probably wriggle out of it once again and the same stories will be resurfacing 3-4 years down the line, again to no avail)..
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Old 15th Dec 2015, 18:50
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HMRC are being pushed to find every penny, yet this has been going on for ages in clear sight and it's just because the Germans are pursuing it that they pull their heads out of the sand.

Self employment in the building industry was under high scrutiny for the same reasons(isle of man then at 10% tax) 8 years ago so why are they feckless here?

O'leary is a slippery weasel and these guys move in similar circles! It's a financial catch me if you can.
Starbucks are finally coughing up some corporation tax, 8million this year which equals the same as the total paid in last 15. Inter company purchase of coffee beans from Switzerland where the profit was declared in a low tax regime.
Fraud that's the word for it but like the bankers, so few get their just desserts.
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Old 15th Dec 2015, 18:57
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Everyone knew what was going on and finally the authorities are going to hunt them down. I also hope they will claim every penny back from all the pilots who evaded tax for years and years. They knew what they were doing....
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Old 15th Dec 2015, 22:02
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There is a strange phenomenon in pilot circles where a few guys do very well out of being from country X, 'reside' in country Y and pay little or no tax to country Z where they work but somehow don't. Anyone with even a small brain can figure out that sooner or later a Day of a Judgement will come upon the most fleet-of-foot individual. Alas, when it comes to pilots, they think they are immune and no one is more upset and aggrieved when the house of cards comes tumbling down. I have little sympathy for anyone who feels he is a 'special case' and keeps most of what he earns - it can only end in tears at bedtime, and woe betide anyone who has not kept the money aside to pay the Ferryman. I do not expect Ryanair will be sending a personalised box of tissues round to dry their eyes on either.
Count of Monte Bisto is offline  
Old 15th Dec 2015, 22:29
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Sorry guys, but that is total and utter nonsence.

Most will gladly pay taxes the moment the State will reimburse pilot studies, the same as they support any other study that contributes to the economy,gives a decent pension, and not one " for self employed" and will go after the real criminals: the Airlines and agencies.

False self employment and illegal contracts by companies not giving employees their basic social rights are ALWAYS the EMPLOYERS liability in EU Employment legislation.

By the way, I am completely legal, and not linked to FR or Brookfield...
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Old 16th Dec 2015, 09:20
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Despegue, my Daughter is a junior doctor and she paid all her own fees, not a penny back from the State, My son paid his university, not a penny back. As far as i am aware, and stand to be corrected, only the NL allow pilot training costs against tax.. in UK.. not a dogs chance in hell..For me the Ryanair issue is akin to the NAS issue of job security while on a contractor basis.. Taxes are up the the individual to sort out and one way or another we all pay in the end. As for employment rights.. not so sure that means much these days in any Company unfortunately.
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Old 16th Dec 2015, 11:31
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The issue of bogus self-employment was discussed within the civil service arrangement in UK government circles only a year ago. It was discovered that certain very senior figures had set up 'consultancies' as being self-employed, and then serviced themselves to Gov.UK. Their tax bill was peanuts compared to PAYE, and their expenses bill huge. It was discovered that GOV.UK was their only customer and thus the self-employment was not valid. As this was discussed in public in The D.T. I assume it has been corrected and shutdown. Precedence?
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Old 16th Dec 2015, 11:52
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I received training cost (for the Integrated course - the type rating was free) back from my gross salary but that was with prior agreement between my future employer and HMRC before training commenced.

Last edited by Globally Challenged; 16th Dec 2015 at 12:16.
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Old 16th Dec 2015, 12:20
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As far as I know, and I am not familiar with medical training, but it is not the paying for your own training that upset me, it was the fact that all of my training was subject to VAT.

As far as I know, pilot training is the only vocational training to be subject to VAT which is criminal if you ask me ...
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Old 16th Dec 2015, 12:36
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The issue of paying for training is interesting but it's a sideshow.
In the UK, the relevant test is the "IR35" test. If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck etc. Written contracts, side letters, are all irrelevant if HMRC determines that you are (in effect) performing the duties of an employee.
It has to be said that HMRC enforcement of this is patchy (to be polite) given that many senior figures in prominent roles (eg at the BBC) have been playing this game for years.
Personally, having been subject to a HMRC investigation (because of the actions of a former employer in the motor industry) I would never ever want to be on the wrong side of HMRC.
Read more here
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Old 16th Dec 2015, 12:45
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Rehashing old ground of course but, given that these contracts fail every critical test of self employment that there is (unable to name your own working hours, work for another airline etc), why is this NOT an open and shut case and why is it still going on??

Ryanair and Norwegian pilots (and Wizz pilots for that matter but that's going on outside of the U.K.) are all employees, none of them are self employed in reality. These companies are illegally evading social insurance payments for employees. It's about time this was finally cracked down upon but I'm not holding my breath.
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Old 16th Dec 2015, 12:48
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Is ab-initio pilot training vocational?
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Old 16th Dec 2015, 14:53
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RexBanner - wise words indeed. How can anyone credibly claim that a pilot working for Brookfield is self-employed? It is clearly nonsense designed for the sole purpose of robbing the taxman. I recognise that those pilots offered such deals simply have no choice, but they would nonetheless be wise to have put some cash aside for the inevitable tax bill destined to land on their doorstep at some stage. Experience tells me that most will not have done so, and may therefore find themselves in a position of some embarrassment. As for Ryanair, I hope that this ends up in court with every last responsible individual within the Company who was party to tax avoidance practices held accountable. My doubt does not lie whether the practices were wrong or not, but whether HMRC are willing to really go for it. Time will tell.
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Old 16th Dec 2015, 16:35
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Controversial or not, the Ryanair and Norwegian staffing arrangements seem to give the carriers a competitive boost. In a presentation to investors in November, Ryanair said its unit labor cost was only 6 euros per available seat-mile, compared with 19 euros at U.S.-based discounter Spirit Airlines and 35 euros at Southwest Airlines.

Taken from The Creative Pilot Hiring Habits of Ryanair and Norwegian Air Shuttle ? Skift

To my mind the practices of both Ryanair and Norwegian are disgraceful. The pilots get no choice in this but given the amount of publicity the likes of Starbucks and Amazon have got as a consequence of deliberate tax avoidance I am shocked that Ryanair at least does not attract the same.
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Old 16th Dec 2015, 20:54
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"The inevitable tax bill" if you are declaring your income to HMRC will never come. If you are paying honest income tax based on your gross income and claiming only provable,receipted expenses, together with social insurance (in many cases both employer and employee!) you are going to have no problem.

It is the employer who commits the offence in this case - whoever that is found to be.

There are plenty of people just trying to pay fair tax and earn enough to pay the mortgage who should not be lumped in as avoiders who deserve what is coming to them by the likes of the Count who is lucky enough to be working for plan Orange rather than the Harp.
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Old 16th Dec 2015, 21:28
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Thats it.... I applied to Ryanair for a job following a link in there website... I was initially employed by Ryanair during line training and got paid on PAYE by Ryanair.... I then passed my line check and was told to expect a phone call.... The call was hey were going to offer you a contract with Brookfield based in XXX. You just need to sign it and resign from Ryanair and your good to go! WTF!!!!!!

Needless to say once I had sufficient experience I got the hell out of Dodge. I wish maybe I had gone sooner but I wanted that left seat first after all the cost and struggle.

I paid Tax's in the UK for as long as I could then got moved/stuck/forced on to an Irish LTD company paying tax there...... That was enough and the search for a new seat began.

Right or wrong its not for me to say... seems HMRC are going to work that one out for me... I don't imagine the hassle is behind me yet though.
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