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Old 14th Feb 2018, 22:09
  #61 (permalink)  
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Def. Aerologic, full access to LH-ID system and a much more valuable Rating. But i would join Norwegian as well directly and skip those.....
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Old 15th Feb 2018, 09:19
  #62 (permalink)  
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I donít get it, what is your point? Did I ever say that we have any mainline pilots from LH or BA? Why should they join AL? Why should any U.S. pilot join a German company in Europe? We have pilots coming from Austrian Airlines, Emirates, Alitalia or Singapore, most of them were Commander before they joined AL.
Yes, we lost a great bunch of Senior First Officers to Norwegian, but some of the pilots regret it. Did you read how much money Norwegian lost last year? I donít think that Norwegian is a better gig comparing to AL, but itís my personal opinion.
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Old 15th Feb 2018, 11:07
  #63 (permalink)  
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I thought it was German speaker mandatory for all pilots. All these pilots coming from alitalia, Emirates, ... They were all speaking German ? Or it is not mandatory in real ?

Thank for the answer ?
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Old 15th Feb 2018, 11:22
  #64 (permalink)  
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They are all native speakers except of the Alitalia people, some of them still refuse to speak german in the flight deck, a few other understand most words, but in general, german is still a requirement.
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Old 15th Feb 2018, 13:35
  #65 (permalink)  
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Just do me a favor and read my previous posts, I never said that AL is the best longhaul Operator in the world, but as an former expat I can assure you that itís not a bad deal, especially when you are getting older! Yes, we have discussed the money issue so many times in the past, but why donít you stick with the facts. Starting salary for a second officer coming straight from flight school (22 years old) is 40.000 Euros, just for pushing the MIC Button. Show me a non-aviation job in Germany where your starting salary at the beginning of your career is higher? if you join the company as experienced copilot the wages are higher. The SFOs going to DY were promised a quick upgrade and except of one person, NONE of them is in the upgrading, waiting now for two years, surprise surprise!
By the way, the profit loss was 38 Million E last year, but you are absolutely right, itís not your money, so who cares if a company is loosing money, as long as you get your payslip at the end of the month
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Old 15th Feb 2018, 13:53
  #66 (permalink)  
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I agree with you about it, no Job is perfect and yes If i had to say something in my company I would pay better, but thatís life, I am not responsible for the T&Cs.

Take care
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Old 15th Feb 2018, 14:42
  #67 (permalink)  
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I would also be careful about the fact that AL is a company flying for two groups (DHL and LH). DHL is growing for years now and they made up plans for the next decade. LH has also it's own cargo business. I wouldn't feel too good in that situation since it is often the case that AL would be the first to be ceased in case of difficulties. Salaries at AL are low for the type of ops and it can be frustrating to meet the guy's next door earning more money (DHL crews). I've met some AL captains in Leipzig and some of them are really special. But I guess it is like this pretty much everywhere... I would go for Norwegian if I had to choose.
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Old 15th Feb 2018, 17:01
  #68 (permalink)  
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AL is a joint venture of LH and DHL
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Old 16th Feb 2018, 02:38
  #69 (permalink)  
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Maybe check your sources and don't believe everything that MOS is feeding you.

-Of all the people that have left AL for DY, only two of them are longer in the company than two years and both have passed their first upgrade to RCA and are on track to become captains soon.

-Everyone else has so far exactly gotten what has been promised to them in the interview (with respect to the upgrade), it might take them 3-4 months longer than expected but that was due to the delay in training until final line check. Which was fully paid by the way including per diems from the first day

-Just to give you a little comparison, as an RCA you earn 100kÄ (or lots more if you sell OFF Days which is now really lucrative) which is higher than the highest FO step in the salary scale (and 45% higher than what I earned after 7 years) which is basically unreachable except for the few individuals who have been hired into it from the beginning. Oh and nobody in DY sleeps in a trailer on the parking lot or in a smelly cellar room next to trash because they can't afford to pay for a hotel and the taxi ride at night.

This might sound like I hated my time at AL, I actually enjoyed it and look back to lots of good memories but having been one of the guys who where on the receiving end for years when it came to career progression and who owned the sad title of being the lowest paid SFO worldwide on a B777 I definitely don't regret having made the move to a different airline, not one little bit.
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Old 16th Feb 2018, 07:24
  #70 (permalink)  
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Dear Parkbremse,

First of all you donít know me, so plz. stop putting me in a line with MOS, I have nothing to do with him and I donít belong to the inner circle, itís so easy! Also, I am little older than you and know the life.
Do you like commuting to LGW? If yes, than itís fine for you, but I also have my sources, some guys regret their decision.
I bet you came to AL as copilot with not more then 1000 hrs on a turboprop or BAe Jet, why did you sign the contract if the money was low for you? I Know exactly what kind of person you are, always complaining and never happy with anything (money,hotels, catering,roster....)
Regarding the sleeping opportunities, in general spoken what is so wrong about it if a company is providing sleeping places? I wished I had been offered something similar when I was a young copilot and had to drive back home the whole night. On the other hand, how does it come that you see young pilots driving expensive cars but not willing to pay 45,- Euros for an accomodation?

So, it doesnít make any sense to discuss with a person like you who is always frustrated, I guess i have an idea who you are, so none of us is missing you in the flight deck!

Thatís it, Iím done with you!
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Old 16th Feb 2018, 11:25
  #71 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Billboeing
Dear Parkbremse,

First of all you don’t know me,...............Also, I am little older than you and know the life.
Originally Posted by Billboeing
I Know exactly what kind of person you are
This is amazing, you donīt know me ....... but I know you.

Come on, lets face the truth, the money at AL is crap and and people come to AL because of the a/c, its the lowest paid wide body job in Europe.

And you have to tell the full story, people from AZ, EY or EK joined about 7-8 years ago when they were hired as DEC or fast command and OS guys bypassed all the SFOs and were hired as DEC on top of the pay scale.

If you are happy at AL, great, but its a low salary airline offering P2F time to time.
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Old 16th Feb 2018, 12:12
  #72 (permalink)  
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Bill, well you jump to interesting conclusions without knowing me and whether you guys miss me or not is really not of my concern.

I don't like the commuting to LGW of course. I didn't like commuting to LEJ either though. It's because I don't like commuting in the first place but I do it because I value living at home much more and then thats a price to pay. Interestingly the money I pay now for commuting is almost the same as I paid on average commuting to LEJ but honestly, I will take London, Paris, Barcelona, Rome or any scandi city anytime over Leipzig but thats of course a personal preference.

But if it fits your mental picture and makes you feel better that we are unhappy and regret our decision to move along than thats ok, we have already heard the rumors about us and its always good for a laugh when we meet at the Costa or somewhere else in the world before we move along to different topics.

Also and to be a little more on topic, I always said that AL is not a bad job, rosters are nice for the most part and you will in general have a good time in the flight deck but without the rose tinted specs it looks like this:

- the ratio of cpts to sfo/fo is skewed, has always been so one can not expect a high amount of upgrades with even two or three more aircraft coming. Sure there will be some but I would assume its in the region of 10-12 people.

-As a large number of copilots are with the company for years and many have already reached the hour requirement and most will reach it within 1 or 2 years, meaning that a new FO at the bottom of seniority can now expect to sit in the right hand seat for 10 years+. Also, a significant portion of captains is fairly young (40s or younger)

-As entry salary is low and the progression of salary is slow, you will in that time progress to a salary level a little higher than what NLH pays for a First Officer in the first year. That can change of course but it would take a really significant adjustment upwards to make the salary competitive and that includes cpts salaries.

If thats ok for you, then apply and join should you make it through the selection. If you have doubts though it might be a good idea to look elsewhere, there is lots of opportunities now, Norwegian being just one of many.
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Old 16th Feb 2018, 12:34
  #73 (permalink)  
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I donít want to engage in any personal discussion because frankly I donít have a dog in this fight. Neither Airline is perfect. However, 20-30 pilots from one have moved further west, 0 Pilots moved the other way.

This is all public info but to save you from Googleing:

- There was a PAY2FLY program via BAA Baltic Aviation. Complete strangers wearing the uniform etc... paying to sit in a 777.

- There was an engine failure over the Atlantic and a return single engine all the way back east german base.

- Union recognition and transparent, equal employment terms and conditions among the pilots are vehemently fought against by management, using all kinds of interesting Ąstrategiesď to keep the Ąsheep in lineď.

8 years ago there was a real chance, it couldíve have been a great, fun place to work, that chance was destroyed for the benefit of fery few.

A good sum up: It has more in common with East Germany than just location. Look back 25 years and youíll get it.
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Old 18th Feb 2018, 01:13
  #74 (permalink)  
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Simple sum up: the terms and conditions are not really the main discussing point. If you're expecting a normal, german airline you will be surprised what is possible

Hotels downroute
Deadheading over 4 hours in Business Class
ID Travel
Very many really nice guys working there
Duties starting in FRA means company pays for ticket from home and hotel in FRA so no commuting cost
Bar of chocolate or coffee mug as christmas "bonus"

15 days off (sounds great and would be if the duties were "normal", however be prepared to C/I at 4AM, then fly two legs LEJ-DXB-HKG, back the same but through the night, it is A KILLER!!!)
Mostly very high standard pilots, good standardised training (of course there are some random ex emirates checkers who forget to fly the plane while focused on/quoting some OM-A rules but in general harmless)
Good ops support
Bidding system (1x 4days off in a row, 1 trip, but intransparent, at the sole control of crewplanning)
The current DFO is a very knowledgeable guy that could really manage the place well but unfortunately he is only a "placeholder" for someone higher up without any power.

Get it done culture/Get-there-itis (Google Youtube: AeroLogic BOX506 777F - Typhoon NIDA)
Fatigue. Be prepared to be very tired and fly trips like LEJ-DXB-HKG, LEJ-BAH-BLR, FRA-ORD-LAX in one stretch (18+ hours duty through the night...)!
Low Pay
No Pension
No collective contract
Pay2Fly with weird guys who buy flight time in a 777
Backstabbers/"pretenders" who try to advance by ratting on their colleagues
Some colleagues have more "privileges" than "normal" guys.
No seniority protection, (upgrading requirements are changed as needed to fulfill "friends" requirements)
Based at LEJ but actually in the middle of nowhere in an office building off airport (no public transport available = $$$ for taxis)
Very "political", people who spoke up about anything (minor or major like safety, fatigue etc...) are reprimanded (rumours are that one pilot has been fired over nothing).
Fear culture, Intimidation
Brainwashed people
The generous 42 days holidays are worthless because each vacation day reduces your off days 2:1 (e.g. 15 days off + 15 days holiday does not mean you get 30 days off but only 22)!
Everything based only on working days/days off, no overtime threshold for productivity/block hours (e.g. a 7 day layover counts the same as two minimum rest trips)
Part time scam if you look at workload/block hours, basically you get 25% less pay for the same work: 100% = fly 3 trips a month plus one EU turn/sit SBY in LEJ @15 days off, 75% = fly 3 24h trips a month plus 1 EU turn @20 days off)
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Old 19th Feb 2018, 10:02
  #75 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by dusflieger
No Pension
PJN states "German state pension"
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Old 19th Feb 2018, 11:55
  #76 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by gnarlberg
agree, reason i failed the interview because I didn't want to take off below minimum TOF
In all fairness,

1. this is probably not the only reason you failed (they generally dont fail people for such things alone)

2. its not really a good example, it can be completely reasonable to take off below min FPL TOF, thats what Contingency Fuel is there for, whether you burn it on the ground or in the air doesnít matter.
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Old 19th Feb 2018, 13:38
  #77 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by maximus610
PJN states "German state pension"
The state pension is mandatory, but very low in yield, actually it might be negative (you get less out than you pay in). So no, it is not a "real" pension.
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Old 20th Feb 2018, 11:44
  #78 (permalink)  
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gnarlberg, be a bit creative. It's absolutely legal to depart below FPL fuel. Get the aircraft on the way, try to save fuel enroute (levels, direct, lower CI...). If you cnnot make it to your destination with the required minimum fuel, land short for a tech stop, refuel and, FDL allowing, continue the flight. But at least you are on the way and the company might be able to organize something for you.
This is how it is handled in all longhaul outfits I know.
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Old 20th Feb 2018, 12:11
  #79 (permalink)  
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I know it's not always a clear cut case with definitions but ICAO Annex 6 "Operation of Aircraft" ( ) specifically states:

c) contingency fuel, which shall be the amount of fuel required to compensate for unforeseen factors. It shall be five per cent of the planned trip fuel or of the fuel required from the point of in-flight re-planning based on the consumption rate used to plan the trip fuel but, in any case, shall not be lower than the amount required to fly for five minutes at holding speed at 450 m (1 500 ft) above the destination aerodrome in standard conditions;

Note.— Unforeseen factors are those which could have an influence on the fuel consumption to the destination aerodrome, such as deviations of an individual aeroplane from the expected fuel consumption data, deviations from forecast meteorological conditions, extended taxi times before take-off, and deviations from planned routings and/or cruising levels.
So it is stated in an official ICAO document that contingency fuel can be used for before take-off.
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Old 11th Apr 2018, 22:02
  #80 (permalink)  
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Hi everyone!
I have sent my email application to AL today, and there was no automatic email response with a confirmation of receipt - does anyone know if this is "normal", or did other people receive a (automated) reply?
Thanks and cheers!
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