Max duty 2 pilots LH?
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Max duty 2 pilots LH?
One of the SAS unions is in a dispute with their company over max duty hours for longhaul. SAS is asking for 11 hrs, the pilots say max 9 hrs.
What are the rules with other carriers in Europe and the ME? LH? BA? EK? Anybody care to share?
What are the rules with other carriers in Europe and the ME? LH? BA? EK? Anybody care to share?
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As far as i know lufthansa augments based on great circle distance between departure and destination airport. From 4200NM on they need three pilots, plus a few extra city-pairs that are below the required mileage but are deemed above a certain fatigue level. No idea about the maximum flight duty time though.
Air Berlin does it similarly, however they use 4350NM and only a full flat business seat with a sound and light mitigating curtain as rest facility instead of a crew bunk. Maximum allowable flight duty time with two crew members is 14 hours (EU OPS subpar Q limit), augmented with the current rest facility up to 14:30 hours is possible, if the aircraft is equipped with a crew bunk (not currently the case) up to 16:30 is possible with three pilots. However that contract is up for renegotiation right now. There are some additional rules, example for two sector duties.
Air Berlin does it similarly, however they use 4350NM and only a full flat business seat with a sound and light mitigating curtain as rest facility instead of a crew bunk. Maximum allowable flight duty time with two crew members is 14 hours (EU OPS subpar Q limit), augmented with the current rest facility up to 14:30 hours is possible, if the aircraft is equipped with a crew bunk (not currently the case) up to 16:30 is possible with three pilots. However that contract is up for renegotiation right now. There are some additional rules, example for two sector duties.
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Maximum allowable flight duty time with two crew members is 14 hours (EU OPS subpar Q limit)
Operations would work out if an additional crew member was required in morning for afternoon dispatch, most of time flight time was suitable for a 2 man crew, even if only by minutes. (BBJ)
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When SAS pushes from gates in Oslo, Copenhagen or Stockholm, you can often see an A330 from another Nordic AOC holder parked at the same pier.
Those guys fly 12:30 flight time two-man crew utilising in flight rest. Blows my mind in terms of fatigue, but they do Bangkok (and a few days later the return) with only two flight crew members.
At the other end of the scale, a green tailed Hong Kong flag carrier who's often seen at Heathrow, Schipol and CDG has a 9h flight time limit on 2 crew, 13h fdp for three crew and basicly unlimited fdp with four. And a sweet clause that states the longer sector applies, meaning a 4 man Hong Kong - Frankfurt (12:something) is still 4 man return even if the return sector time is closer to 10.
It would seem SAS management's desire for 11h flight time (12:30 fdp without delays?) is targeting something in the middle of the extremes?
Those guys fly 12:30 flight time two-man crew utilising in flight rest. Blows my mind in terms of fatigue, but they do Bangkok (and a few days later the return) with only two flight crew members.
At the other end of the scale, a green tailed Hong Kong flag carrier who's often seen at Heathrow, Schipol and CDG has a 9h flight time limit on 2 crew, 13h fdp for three crew and basicly unlimited fdp with four. And a sweet clause that states the longer sector applies, meaning a 4 man Hong Kong - Frankfurt (12:something) is still 4 man return even if the return sector time is closer to 10.
It would seem SAS management's desire for 11h flight time (12:30 fdp without delays?) is targeting something in the middle of the extremes?
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Alright for some, many of us fly charter operations from Central Europe to The Canaries and back, with a planned FDP of 13:50 and a flight time of 11:50 (enough to get you from London to Hong Kong).
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Alright for some, many of us fly charter operations from Central Europe to The Canaries and back, with a planned FDP of 13:50 and a flight time of 11:50 (enough to get you from London to Hong Kong).
AND you do it at night, lose sleep, consecutive days, lose more sleep; try to sleep twice in 14 hrs during the day in a raucous unquiet hotel, but it's not considered the same as jet lag. Daft FTL's & rostering. Classic case of rules and spirit of the rules. Sadly common sense is not in large supply when consdiered versus costs/profits. They now even advocate 'inflight controlled rest', for long 2 actor days, in a pilot seat with not enough recline to be really comfortable, and some even without headrests. And then the C/A's call every 20mins and wake you up. Sounds great on paper but totally unrealistic. I used to fly heavy crew trips with a normal pax seat for rest with only a curtain for privacy. Knees in you back (front row) or full recline in front of you (rear cabin). Full cabin service going on, no sleep at all. Pure daft. It's all a paper exercise with no respect of what is at stake; especially when these trips right be during the last couple of days of a long block. The playing field has never been level, but it's a lot more bumpy and skew-wiff these days.
AND you do it at night, lose sleep, consecutive days, lose more sleep; try to sleep twice in 14 hrs during the day in a raucous unquiet hotel, but it's not considered the same as jet lag. Daft FTL's & rostering. Classic case of rules and spirit of the rules. Sadly common sense is not in large supply when consdiered versus costs/profits. They now even advocate 'inflight controlled rest', for long 2 actor days, in a pilot seat with not enough recline to be really comfortable, and some even without headrests. And then the C/A's call every 20mins and wake you up. Sounds great on paper but totally unrealistic. I used to fly heavy crew trips with a normal pax seat for rest with only a curtain for privacy. Knees in you back (front row) or full recline in front of you (rear cabin). Full cabin service going on, no sleep at all. Pure daft. It's all a paper exercise with no respect of what is at stake; especially when these trips right be during the last couple of days of a long block. The playing field has never been level, but it's a lot more bumpy and skew-wiff these days.
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Where do you guys find a EASA max. FDP of 14 hours?
As far as I and all my colleagues are aware, it is 13 hours max. If not operating in WOCL.
Extensions are PURELY on Captains discretion people, and I for one just don't accept any planned extension. You should do the same if you value your profession and health.
As far as I and all my colleagues are aware, it is 13 hours max. If not operating in WOCL.
Extensions are PURELY on Captains discretion people, and I for one just don't accept any planned extension. You should do the same if you value your profession and health.
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This was news for me at first too. I believe many Central and Eastern European countries have a dispensation from their local CAAs, otherwise all flights from Poland to The Canaries have to be augmented and even with augmented crew, there would be very little room for delay. Our OM-A had a small blurb at the end of Chapter 7 indicating this. As crew operating for this company, we were obliged to accept.
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Captains discretion and extended duty are two different things. The latter may be planned twice within seven consecutive days and is not subject to the captains approval (except if your CLA says something different), captains discretion may be used every day and is at the captains discretion after he has talked with every crew member about it. Extended duty has additional rest requirement, whereas discretion doesn't have any above the rest equal to duty time rule.
Extended duty is not in all cases 14 hours of course, if more than two landings are planned it reduces the same as any other duty period as well, for example it allows for a 13 hour day with four landings.
All the above applies to EU OPS subpart Q, as far as i know EASA OPS is in that regard very similar, but it comes into force next year, so we worry about that in half a year.
Extended duty is not in all cases 14 hours of course, if more than two landings are planned it reduces the same as any other duty period as well, for example it allows for a 13 hour day with four landings.
All the above applies to EU OPS subpart Q, as far as i know EASA OPS is in that regard very similar, but it comes into force next year, so we worry about that in half a year.
