Ryanair salary, Ireland and German taxes

[whitestormtrooper]

Hallo,

Can somebody please explain how to roughly calculate the "take home" money from a Ryanair contract for a pilot based in Germany?

The principle for taxation seems to be clear: Irish PAYE and USC + German Social Insurance, but...there are quite a few variables...

Are the Irish taxes (PAYE and USC) calculated from the gross salary only or the gross salary + flight pay?
(is it as simple as 20% up to 42.800EUR and 40% of rest or is there a more complicated formula?)

German Social Insurance is calculated on the gross salary only, gross salary + flight pay, what remains from gross salary minus Irish taxes, etc? (there are quite a few possibilities...)

Could someone please put some light on this matter?

[safelife]

I have no idea about Ryanair, but if you happen to be a contractor then social contribution isn't due, it is applicable only to "real" employments.
But then again being a contractor won't work in germany, as you cannot be self employed with only one customer you work for (that would make Ryanair liable to hire you...).

[Avenger]

http://www.pprune.org/terms-endearme...ots-homes.html

Is this thread still valid?

[Denti]

Social security in germany is based on your gross salary, including flight pay. Up to a maximum of 6.050€/month gross salary for pension and unemployment insurance, and up to a maximum of 4.125€ for health insurance. If you earn more than 54.900€ a year you can choose to change into a private health insurance which is usually cheaper and quite often offers better cover.

I know that there was some kind of problem with the easyjet pilots based in germany as long as they had uk contracts about taxation, and tax as well as social security services take a much closer look at ryan air pilots lately so you need to be careful. Better contact a good tax consultant ("Steuerberater") who knows about the special problems in cross border aviation contracts.

A first startpoint to read up on social security in germany might be Deutsche Sozialversicherung. Another rough overview can be found here. If employed directly by ryanair the airline has to pay the employer part of it, if employed through another company that other company has to pay that part.

[172_driver]

I have no idea about Ryanair, but if you happen to be a contractor then social contribution isn't due, it is applicable only to "real" employments

Not sure what you mean here, Ryanair contractors are employed by their own limited liability companies.

If employed directly by ryanair the airline has to pay the employer part of it, if employed through another company that other company has to pay that part.

So Denti has got it quite right.

[mjk]

Basically all is calculated based on full gross figures. Income taxes also calculated before deducting social security contributions. This leads to marginal tax rate going up to over 67% btn certain income limits and then dropping a bit when reaching socsec contribution ceilings.

[Avenger]

172 Driver, I think you will find the old " I work for my own Ltd Company" dodge is all but stopped now..forming a shell company to provide " pilot services" and then claiming to be "self employed" within the company and claiming all costs against income was thrown out of the courts as a " blatant attempt to avoid taxation" )

Some ex colleagues now face huge tax bills and fines, in addition to which they are paying " tax lawyers" about £300/hr to reduce their liability. Many cut and run as the authorities descended on them!

[172_driver]

I think we all agree that this atypical employment form is a shady business disapproved of in most states, except that one state that benefits from it all. But that doesn't mean it's still not happening. Just the enforcement of the rules that's lagging...

I am not defending the one who came up with this BS, but don't forget that 'contractors' are their own worst enemy sometimes. Deliberate tax dodging happened systematically and now (some) are paying their dues.

[whitestormtrooper]

Ok thanks a lot for the replies, I understand now the part with German Taxes.

The part with the Ireland taxes is still not clear...

Irish taxes are 20% to 42.800 and 40% of what is extra?

My understanding is that these taxes include social insurance in Ireland(pension, medical, etc)....meaning that social insurance is paid twice...which is in contradiction with the double taxation agreements...

[whitestormtrooper]

Just to make things even simpler...

Does anyone know in what range would a RYR Captain in Germany have as take-away money?

below 6.000EUR, between 6.000 and 6.500, over 6.500 a month, etc?

[RAT 5]

172 & Avenger: You make some very specific comments that seem to suggest the use of LTD companies to hire contractors is not kosher. If the contractor is self-employed, but tied by contract to one customer, then they should be employees. That sounds fine & dandy. So why is this construction still in force? The payment of social costs to the country of base, but the payment of income taxes to the country of the LTD company does not seem to negate or redefine the legality of the situation. So which is it? If it is not legal why is it still enforced by some companies? How do they get away with it. The contractor has no choose; some possible work or not. As you say they have been hit with back tax bills. Why not then the outfit they are contracted to? 100% of the blame does not lie on one side of the contract. It's a 2 sided affair, surely?

[Avenger]

RAT this is a very complex subject and has been discussed at length in the past, however, the real culprit is greed..lets be honest, no-one likes paying tax and no company wants to pay NI for employees, but its the law and thats it. If we are based in another country and our house burns down , or we need an ambulance then rightly we should have paid something towards those services via tax or NI, on the other hand we all feel underpaid and want to take as much money net as we can, hence the tax avoidance scams.. ironically if we were high level politicians or corporate magnets we would get away with it! didn't the UK government admit to only pursuing ONE case against a multi millionaire in the past 5 years! Taking a practical approach we can reduce our tax burden with creative accountancy and show practically no earnings, on the other hand we can then get zero credit for mortgages etc..chicken and egg. I know for a fact, not rumour, the guys that left Turkish to work back in Germany as " employees" halved their net salaries, pros.. they are at their chosen bases with their families and in the comfort zone..security has a price, we just have to be willing to pay it. And yes agencies should accept some accountability as they promote " tax free income".. alas, tax free income in own country of residence is not possible..

[whitestormtrooper]

Ryanair captain salary after taxes

Does anybody know how much a Ryanair captain, employed with direct contract with Ryanair and based in mainland Europe makes after taxes?

[captplaystation]

The long & the short of it, is that certain companies (not just the one being discussed here) used pilots greed very effectively against them. When the offer of becoming a "Brookie" first appeared in FR, I resisted the headlong lunge towards the unknown that many colleagues were so enamoured with. In all honesty, unless you were living in Ireland, the ability to claim back your Irish tax (which Declan Dooney never forgot to mention during interview) meant that the difference wasn't so much anyhow, unless you were a 100hr/mth line trainer stuffing circa €15K/mth in your pocket.

Those who lived through that era are not complaining too much now ( & shouldn't be) but the legacy they left behind for their colleagues, who, when everything got a bit more "legal" found themselves paying employers + employees social contributions, means that the once "wonderful" hourly rate (decimated anyhow over the years) has become a joke. . . such a joke in fact, that the totally cr@p permanent contracts now offered aren't that much worse. . . end game achieved.

I had €7000/mth totally legally (without claiming back IE tax) in 2008, my colleagues in NAS with Spanish bases have the same now with (lets say ) 21-35% inflation since then (depending on whether you believe the official figures or your own gut feeling) I would guess the average Europe based FR Capt may even struggle to reach that "dizzy" figure x12 in a year.

So, we have, by allowing ourselves to be "manipulated" out of "employment", awarded ourselves around a 1/3 pay cut in the last 7 years, smart guys pilots Eh

[172_driver]

Does anybody know how much a Ryanair captain, employed with direct contract with Ryanair and based in mainland Europe makes after taxes?

I take a good guess, from colleagues in the situation you are asking for.

Average per year, €5-6000 depending on base. Each base has its own agreement.

My understanding is that these taxes include social insurance in Ireland(pension, medical, etc)....meaning that social insurance is paid twice...which is in contradiction with the double taxation agreements...

If you pay the social insurance in country of base you don't have to pay the PRSI (Pay Related Social Insurance) in Ireland. It's only 4 % anyway. So not much savings.

But, Ireland has something called USC (Universal Social Cost), a percentage, higher than PRSI, based on your gross salary. The USC is a strange one to me, despite its name, you are still liable to pay that one in Ireland together with the regular income tax (PAYE).

172 & Avenger: You make some very specific comments that seem to suggest the use of LTD companies to hire contractors is not kosher. If the contractor is self-employed, but tied by contract to one customer, then they should be employees. That sounds fine & dandy. So why is this construction still in force?

I can only say what I see day to day. The Irish Ltd. set up is well and truly alive. Since these pilots seem to be a gold mine for the Irish Revenue, I guess they've no incentive to speak out against this relationship. As for other European countries, instead of targeting the 'employer' they're targeting the self-employed contractors ensuring they're paying their bills. The only EU state that's told Ryanair to do one is France. No French bases these days (in MRS 'based-crew' is paid overnight allowance, so not a real base. And the police has been there and taped up the crew room more than once)

[Aluminium shuffler]

Salary and flight pay depend on base. Divide and conquer, set the poorly paid bases against the better paid, and have different deals everywhere so no-one knows what's really going on, especially the authorities...

[Gilles Hudicourt]

I met an ex Ryanair German based pilot who is still in a major litigation with the good tax people of Germany, some years after ending his relationship with Ryanair.
So there is the "take home pay" that certain risk takers take home, and there is the "take home pay" that the German taxman thinks you ought to be be taking home.

[RAT 5]

I've always wondered, considering all the the various disputed self-employed contracts out there and the disgruntlement they cause, why someone doesn't just visit their local tax inspector and ask them if the contract the are forced into is valid for self-employment or as an employee. It's a free visit and free advice. It doesn't need collective union action just one individual to test the water. Has it happened and if not why not? There has been so much bar-room lawyer chat on here over many years, why not ask the guys who make the final decision. If you are really an employee, as many believe, then take the ruling to the HR dept and demand a change of contract as per advice by the local tax office. Is it so difficult?

[172_driver]

RAT5, maybe not so easy? Best case scenario, my local tax authority take the opinion that I am in fact an employee. I bring this to the attention of the HR department and demand all rights associated with being an employee. I am quite sure I would be shown the door ( a.k.a. 'your services are no longer needed') when I make a fuss about it. Several of those examples, e.g. JG, JA. And with that we are back in court. Who's up?

[172_driver]

I am of the opinion that in such a divided company as RYR it would've to be sorted out on a political pan-European level.