Pay to fly,
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Pay to fly is not the main problem in this job. The big problem is salary.
In a couple of years you will see that standard captain salary on A320/B737 will be 4000€/month for 75 hours on avarage, this is the tendency on Vueling, Wizzair, Ryanair, Volotea and so on.
So many young FOs are willing to accept a captain job in those horrible T&Cs.
In a couple of years you will see that standard captain salary on A320/B737 will be 4000€/month for 75 hours on avarage, this is the tendency on Vueling, Wizzair, Ryanair, Volotea and so on.
So many young FOs are willing to accept a captain job in those horrible T&Cs.
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Pay to fly is not the main problem in this job. The big problem is salary.
Join Date: Sep 2014
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There is also a petition against P2F. Can you sign it?
https://secure.avaaz.org/fr/petition/p2f_must_stop/
Thanks
https://secure.avaaz.org/fr/petition/p2f_must_stop/
Thanks
Join Date: Jun 2001
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Legality of P2F
Can someone with some knowledge of employment law comment on the legality of P2F in UK.
My understanding was that we had a minimum wage in UK. How then can a company charge for one of the crewmembers on an aircraft certified as minimum 2 crew? Surely they should be getting paid at least the minimum wage? I understand that some airlines may be certified to provide training to people not working for them, but does line-flying for payment come under this sort of training?
If an airline is charging for line "training", surely then the pilots in command flying with these trainees should all be certified Line Training Captains. Is this the case?
My understanding was that we had a minimum wage in UK. How then can a company charge for one of the crewmembers on an aircraft certified as minimum 2 crew? Surely they should be getting paid at least the minimum wage? I understand that some airlines may be certified to provide training to people not working for them, but does line-flying for payment come under this sort of training?
If an airline is charging for line "training", surely then the pilots in command flying with these trainees should all be certified Line Training Captains. Is this the case?
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Wish I had the knowledge Wheelbarrow... My guess it will be usual aviation fiddle to show that you are somehow, or it will be exempt, or some other such nonsense. I do know that self employed and volunteer workers in the UK are not entitled to the minimum wage, so who knows !
Last edited by pg wing tips; 23rd Jan 2015 at 07:28.
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When I sat the ATPL many moons ago it WAS considered to be the equivelant of a Degree. Gawd knows what the level of knowledge is required now.
I am quite sure that there would be some very unhappy "Un paid Interns" that would have to remain so for 10- 15 years, to get the Opportunity to move to the LHS to become a "Real Pilot"......... It just aint gonna happen.
I am quite sure that there would be some very unhappy "Un paid Interns" that would have to remain so for 10- 15 years, to get the Opportunity to move to the LHS to become a "Real Pilot"......... It just aint gonna happen.
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When I sat the ATPL many moons ago it WAS considered to be the equivalent of a Degree.
There has long been a circulating myth about this idea, but in reality that is all it every was. I recall that many years ago (possibly Hamble as I cannot find a modern day reference,) there was a specific integrated course whereby the Open University provided a couple of "credits" towards a degree course if you successfully completed the programme. I seem to recall that had as much to do with the peripheral study as it did with the ATPL content. It certainly didn't provide an academic degree of any sort.
Even today, similar quasi courses pop up from time to time whereby the ATPL training may provide an embedded element of a degree course, but I have never seen any correlation or suggestion of "equivalence" between the two, nor would I really expect to.
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At least one major flight training organisation in the UK used to market the integrated ATPL as "Equivalent to a 2 year BEng course". Rightly or wrongly I don't know but it doesn't matter cos who needs a degree anyway?
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Well if you follow this link:
Equivalence des titres aéronautiques (ATPL,CPL/IR, CPL) - Ministère du Développement durable
You will see that the french CAA issues a certificate for a degree in exchange for a full atpl licence....
Equivalence des titres aéronautiques (ATPL,CPL/IR, CPL) - Ministère du Développement durable
You will see that the french CAA issues a certificate for a degree in exchange for a full atpl licence....
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If you follow this link:
The Register of Regulated Qualifications - The Register
You will see that neither the UK CAA nor anybody else in the UK does.
The Register of Regulated Qualifications - The Register
You will see that neither the UK CAA nor anybody else in the UK does.
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Oh I have no doubt about that, nor the fact that it may well not be justified at all that the DGAC does it.
But it can still come in handy, especially for people looking at a professional reconversion, as it allows you to apply to a few more courses...
But it can still come in handy, especially for people looking at a professional reconversion, as it allows you to apply to a few more courses...
Oh I have no doubt about that, nor the fact that it may well not be justified at all that the DGAC does it.
of equivalence with the French academic "licence" ( degree to us Anglo Saxons). I can't comment as to whether that is still the case.
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There has long been a circulating myth about this idea, but in reality that is all it every was. I recall that many years ago (possibly Hamble as I cannot find a modern day reference,) there was a specific integrated course whereby the Open University provided a couple of "credits" towards a degree course if you successfully completed the programme. I seem to recall that had as much to do with the peripheral study as it did with the ATPL content. It certainly didn't provide an academic degree of any sort.
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Completing your degree through the CTC Wings cadet route will provide you with the opportunity to complete a BSc Honours Degree whilst undergoing flying training. As you progress through the course you will be credited by Middlesex University for the work completed both academically and through your flying exercises and experience. The final part of the degree will be completed whilst working with one of our partner airlines.
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Completing your degree through the CTC Wings cadet route will provide you with the opportunity to complete a BSc Honours Degree whilst undergoing flying training. As you progress through the course you will be credited by Middlesex University for the work completed both academically and through your flying exercises and experience. The final part of the degree will be completed whilst working with one of our partner airlines.
You can now apply via the UCAS website or direct to CTC Aviation. The minimum criteria and the processes are shown overleaf.
*Terms and conditions apply - see Student Loans Company - Student Loans Company
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For cadets who undertake the BSc(Hons) Professional Aviation Pilot Practice degree course, tuition fees are payable directly to Middlesex University for each academic year of the programme. The tuition fees for the 2013/14 academic year are £9,000 equating to a total of £27,000 for the three full time years of the programme at current rates. In addition to the tuition fees charged by Middlesex University, CTC will make operational and equipment charges of £74,300 to include aircraft and simulator hire, airport and CAA fees and pilot equipment. More information can be found at Student Loans Company - Student Loans Company
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At least the French aknowledge the fact that Airline pilots with an ATPL should be given equivalent official degrees, in this case a degree between Bachelor and Master, or the equivalent of the former "'Licenciate" or 4 academic degree.
ATPL also is equivalent to Master in Spain by the way.
At the moment,min Belgium, a frozen ATPL is equivalent to Bachelor ('3 year degree), plans are to allow Full ATPL and Captain on Commercial aircraft a Master equivalent.
This is a fair comparison due to the constant studying, testing and improving required in the Profession.
And those "colleagues" that are against this...get a life and learn to support your profession
I have done 4 years of Maritime Academy ( Master in Nautical Sciences) but I can honestly say that I Have never had to study as much as for the 14 ATPL subjects and thereafter the ( paid by airline) Typerating...
ATPL also is equivalent to Master in Spain by the way.
At the moment,min Belgium, a frozen ATPL is equivalent to Bachelor ('3 year degree), plans are to allow Full ATPL and Captain on Commercial aircraft a Master equivalent.
This is a fair comparison due to the constant studying, testing and improving required in the Profession.
And those "colleagues" that are against this...get a life and learn to support your profession
I have done 4 years of Maritime Academy ( Master in Nautical Sciences) but I can honestly say that I Have never had to study as much as for the 14 ATPL subjects and thereafter the ( paid by airline) Typerating...
A typical degree in the UK (Geography at a London Uni)now only offers around four hours per week of tuition. This only amounts to around 120 hours per academic year.
My last type rating groundschool involved a similar amount of tuition over a three week period!
My last type rating groundschool involved a similar amount of tuition over a three week period!
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I had 1200 hours of ground school for the theory part only, plus around 500h. Total for briefings/debriefings and flying.
Plus Jet Conversion/MCC 40 hours sim plus 30 hours brief/debrief plus 50 hours classroom.
Typerating: 150 theory, 60 h. Sim, 45 h. Brief/debrief.
And this is without constant studying, upgrade courses etc etc...
At least 2000h. Of FORMAL TRAINING, MUCH MORE INTENSIVE THAN AT UNIVERSITY before your first job.
At university, you get MAXIMUM 800h. Of formal training per academic year, at a much slower intensity.
Those ridiculizing an ATPL have no idea and most probably are those who just studied the questions and answers without proper study of the content
Plus Jet Conversion/MCC 40 hours sim plus 30 hours brief/debrief plus 50 hours classroom.
Typerating: 150 theory, 60 h. Sim, 45 h. Brief/debrief.
And this is without constant studying, upgrade courses etc etc...
At least 2000h. Of FORMAL TRAINING, MUCH MORE INTENSIVE THAN AT UNIVERSITY before your first job.
At university, you get MAXIMUM 800h. Of formal training per academic year, at a much slower intensity.
Those ridiculizing an ATPL have no idea and most probably are those who just studied the questions and answers without proper study of the content
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BULL.
We are trained to execute a flight in a safe and economical way, and to counter any situation with the correct solution to ensure a safe result.
The "driving" part ( and will you British please stop comparing flying with driving) is only a small part of the operation.
If you were a Captain on a Commercial Jet working for an Airline, you would know that by the way.
We are trained to execute a flight in a safe and economical way, and to counter any situation with the correct solution to ensure a safe result.
The "driving" part ( and will you British please stop comparing flying with driving
) is only a small part of the operation.If you were a Captain on a Commercial Jet working for an Airline, you would know that by the way.