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UK Union for Pilots

Old 8th Dec 2014, 08:01
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...and there's an interesting point. Train driver recruitment and hiring is a highly regulated business. Train operators do not sell "spare training capacity" to the highest bidder as a source of revenue or to "keep trainers busy" . Most importantly of all they never train more candidates than what is needed to service the industry. Maybe that's because they realise that enlarging the pool of qualified and suitable train drivers increases competition for the same jobs. Something to aspire to for the current generation of pilots.
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Old 8th Dec 2014, 09:15
  #42 (permalink)  
 
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Just to add, there are those (I can feel their rage) that would say that the practices of airlines and big schools (aka integrated) doesn't result in an oversupply and on the contrary expansion, training and hiring are carefully linked and planned. Rather it's the hundreds of CPLs that are output by smaller modular schools that does that. The logic of this argument of course is that integrated training and the selection process which proceeds such training is designed to produce Airline Pilots whilst modular training is for pilots seeking careers as commercial pilots generally speaking. There is an elitest group out there that truly beleives this and many of them are BALPA careerists. Another reason why big schools are favoured by so many airlines?
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Old 8th Dec 2014, 10:51
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Simple answers to the question:

We do an aspirational job, therefore people are willing to pay to get into the industry and advance within it.

Europe's major cities in real terms aren't that far apart and the public transport systems aren't too bad, resulting in a fraction of the need for general aviation as there is in the US, Australia and Africa. So less opportunities to serve an apprenticeship and build your career up.

Affluence and demographic of UK pilots would lean towards traditional Tory voters where there's an emphasis on the individual over the whole/collective.

BALPA CC's are effectively franchises, if BA management propose something pretty poor it's unlikely that Virgin, TCX, etc will opt for industrial action in solidarity. Unlike a lot of other industries.

The UK market is open to 27 or so EU members and many, many commonwealth citizens. A citizen of Germany who is a commercial pilot will know English to a decent level because English is the lingua franca of aviation. There's no way due to legislation to give British citizens a head start. No doubt similar situation as in the Premier League. That's not a criticism because we are generally lazy to our continental cousins when it comes to languages, however we are barred to a lot of markets unless we can speak the national lingo.

Last edited by Dreamshiner; 8th Dec 2014 at 11:15.
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Old 8th Dec 2014, 13:02
  #44 (permalink)  
 
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Balpa can only do what it's members allow it to do.

4468 is right.

If Balpa is not a strong Union, it is entirely down to its members.

The only strong union in the uk right now is the tube drivers Union. The rest are weak pussy cats.
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Old 8th Dec 2014, 13:06
  #45 (permalink)  
 
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The only strong union in the uk right now is the tube drivers Union.
Can I ask AO, why do you think that's the case?

Monopoly on the skill set in the UK and working for an organisation that can't ship workers (and trains) in from elsewhere in the EU...plus the willingness to be serioulsy b***dy minded, right or wrong?
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Old 8th Dec 2014, 15:56
  #46 (permalink)  

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Surely the answer to the question is that, for all the bleating about the slide in T&C's, the reality is that people are still queuing up for the shot at a career in the industry because, over the long term, the numbers still stack up in favour of the gamble....

As for being grossly overpaid, UK pilots, legacy or otherwise, are pretty poorly recompensed compared with our major European counterparts.

Is the strength of French Unions in comparison to our own to be applauded or lamented? Discuss.

The argument, however, that, because the required skill set for being a pilot is so basic, one ought not to be paid much, doesn't really cut the mustard though. Have a look at the required skill set for a Stockbroker.



That said, I think the wheels at BALPA are finally starting to slowly turn in this respect. One of the greatest threats to our career these days is the issue of cross-border employment that affects all of us, whichever airline we work for....
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Old 8th Dec 2014, 16:33
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If the French organised a Union for all airport workers, i'd join it in a shot.

Give the directors a massive wage increase, whilst telling pilots and cabin crew things are tough so we'll see you next summer......errm no. No fuel, no catering, no ATC, no ATC etc etc
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Old 8th Dec 2014, 17:58
  #48 (permalink)  
 
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BALPA CC's are effectively franchises, if BA management propose something pretty poor it's unlikely that Virgin, TCX, etc will opt for industrial action in solidarity. Unlike a lot of other industries.
Missed that comment earlier - AFAIK the lack of ability of pilots in, say Virgin, to come out on strike in solidarity with their "comrades" in TCX, BA or over CTC cadets, is not a consequence of BALPA's structure, franchise or otherwise, it's a consequence of the changes to UK industrial law brought in from 1980 onwards.

As I understand it you can only take industrial action over a dispute between you and your own employer...so even the mighty UNITE cannot legally call a nationwide/all airline cabin crew strike over the treatment of it's members at, say, BA...only those UNITE members working for BA can strike. It's the same across all UK industry, e.g. M&S staff in the shop workers union USDAW cannot strike in support of fellow USDAW members employed by, say, Tescos.

I think other's here have chapter and verse but certainly as JS has pointed out anyone involved in secondary/solidarity action in the UK can face severe consequences. For the very basic history see the UK entry here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solidarity_action


...and it seems to be getting worse as companies have become pan European, no I don't like the UK law on this as it stands, and no, I never did vote for her..........

Last edited by wiggy; 9th Dec 2014 at 06:04. Reason: Good Morning...Tinkering, tidying and link added.
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Old 8th Dec 2014, 18:20
  #49 (permalink)  
 
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Wiggy....

Is on the money.

I also didnt vote for her either.
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Old 9th Dec 2014, 06:18
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Is the strength of French Unions in comparison to our own to be applauded or lamented? Discuss.
Having spent some time in France I'd say it depends ( and I'll start by mentioning that most of our local trains weren't running yesterday because of a strike, same next Monday )....

Good for the members so far, but at the cost of making them uncompetitive. But the workers are lucky that the French system, by virtue of language and the necessity of having French licences/qualifications for most jobs makes it very difficult for foreigners to work within France.

Bad for the increasing number of French workers in the private sector and who aren't in a Union. Private sector bosses these days are less and less indulgent of staff failing to turn up for work because the trains aren't running.

As for aviation specifically despite of the strength of Unions in Air France IMHO they are facing the same uphill battle against the non-unionised LoCos & the P2F brigade as all the other legacy carriers in Europe. As a result I get the impression the even the state established "flying training centres" such as ENAC in Toulouse stopped being a way into AF and instead became a French version of CTC a while ago. l think the best the AF unions can now do is try to ring fence the T&Cs of a dwindling number of legacy crew members..sound familiar?

I suspect there might be a "Thatcher" moment coming, possibly after the next presidential elections....that will be fun to watch....

Last edited by wiggy; 9th Dec 2014 at 06:31.
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Old 10th Dec 2014, 09:14
  #51 (permalink)  

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train or bus drivers who also control a heavy vehicle with many passengers, is ridiculous - they operate in a two dimensional environment
Surely a train driver only has one variable to consider, haven't seen many trains with a steering wheel.
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Old 11th Dec 2014, 16:49
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What a complete load of rubbish stated by John Smith. Anyone who thinks using the automatics in a modern aircraft is all there is to flying is an idiot. No amount of sat letting the aircraft do all the flying will prevent another Air France disaster or any of the hull losses over the years which could of been prevented by a pilot being on board who has a level of flying skills that deserve a well paid salary. This comes from dedication, aptitude and a desire to remain at the top of ones game. The one night where it all goes wrong and the only thing preventing an accident is the time where people with J Smiths outlook and attitude are in trouble.
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