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Wizzair

Old 27th Apr 2019, 20:10
  #841 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
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2unlimited

Your last 2 lines say everything. As a RYR pilot(just glancing into the Wizz thread to see how things run in the east, bad, as usual) I can say that I joined RYR AFTER they changed that you had to pay for TR, even interview. Would not have gone for them, was staying with a scrappier operator for 6 years because I REFUSE to pay typeratings. Like they would make a judge pay for the courtroom, or his years in university. No(at least in good old western europe) university is more or less for free(some exceptions exist, agree, but that is a minority). Why would a pilot have to pay for his Typerating? Doing this job already over 25 years, bonding is fine(IF it is not more then 3 years of course), paying is a big NONO.

When I started in aviation it was normal that you would not pay for a TR IF you stick around till the bond expires. Some left earlier, normally they never made you pay(if you worked and left in a decent way, common sense, missing a lot nowadays, agree on that). Then some new generation started, maybe just TO overkeen to be a pilot, maybe lacking really on all required skills, but they still wanted to do it. SO? What they did? Knocking on company doors being already with a TR and still wet behind the ears....

And then it all started. Still remember that you had to pay 150(?) Pounds(Euros?) to even APPLY to Ryanair. Just always laughed when I have seen that. And had my not very nice thoughts about pilots applying there letting their pants down....

What I want to say? EVERY pilot need to think BEFORE even becoming a pilot WHY he/she would do that to him/herself and MORE IMPORTANTLY to their(most likely) more talented collegues which have been able to land jobs without paying for typeratings. Of course the market gets corrupted by "wannebes" and (crappy) airlines are quickly adopting to that new situation by generally saying - "hey, if you want a job you have to take what we offer - pay typerating, application, sometimes even the bloody simulator for the interview".

Now, Ryanair realized that in order to get enough AND good pilots they need to skip that crap. There is still enough that is bad(paying your own uniform, parking, no crewfood, drinks, and and and) BUT at least TR are provided with a bond.

Seems Wizz still manages to survive without that. Good for them(wonder who is desperate enough to go there, was once on one of their interviews in BUD, was not impressed and as they did not offer BUD base(lol) never bothered to waste another thought on them).


About Easy. Well, it IS an UK "culture" they maintaining, so reporting is of course an issue. Not much different with their irish friends in Ryanair. FDM IS the BIGGEST friend of the management. Money, respective "package" is not everything. Or, in this case, go China or AJX, then at least we are talking REAL money and package.

Sorry if to much off topic for being a Wizz thread. But I guess I made my point.


P.S.: FI. Well, IF someone flying close to 900 hours is still crazy enough to crawl into a small tin box and doing even more hours then something might be wrong with him(or he should GA, some guys there do not take duty times and block hour restrictions not OVERLY serious. Was there as well, know what I am writning about). But yes(of course), they do not want you to waste THEIR time(that they are paying you for, do not forget) as a private FI(payed if you are on FR contract which I would strongly suggest).
Ryanair is VERY serious about convincing low time FO into SFI positions(and they teach us how to fly, love that part ^^), so there is a big chance for FO to do that WITHIN the company. Outside, no.

Last edited by tomuchwork; 27th Apr 2019 at 20:21.
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Old 27th Apr 2019, 20:37
  #842 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
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Originally Posted by Hawker400 View Post
This might be a rumour but I've heard from a recent cadet in Wizz that after you finish your bonded time they offer an amount (around 9kÄ) to sign back in the company. I imagine this is to keep the talent from leaving so quick when their time is up. I don't have this guys contact anymore to verify so true or not?
​​​​​
All I know about is that you get 50% of the bonded amount back after you stay the whole bond. So right now the bond is 20k, so you should get 10k back if you stay 48 months. Havenīt heard about this "sign back bonus" yet.
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Old 27th Apr 2019, 20:46
  #843 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
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Originally Posted by tomuchwork View Post
2unlimited

Now, Ryanair realized that in order to get enough AND good pilots they need to skip that crap. There is still enough that is bad(paying your own uniform, parking, no crewfood, drinks, and and and) BUT at least TR are provided with a bond.

Seems Wizz still manages to survive without that. Good for them(wonder who is desperate enough to go there, was once on one of their interviews in BUD, was not impressed and as they did not offer BUD base(lol) never bothered to waste another thought on them).
As far as I know the bond for type rating is normal thing in Wizzair for several years. Few cadets from their own flight school even get loaned and bonded for most of the flight training cost + type rating. Not that it would make them perfect, but your statement is not correct on this one.
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Old 27th Apr 2019, 20:58
  #844 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Poland
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@tomuchwork: One of my instructors got a spot at Wizz Air with base in Kutaisi (but an option to later on get a base in Poland) I did not hear that he had to pay any type rating up in front. But maybe they deduct it from salary later on. Of course since the base is in Kutaisi he does not have any possibility to fly as FI other than when being on holiday or some other time off in Poland (I have not actually seen him at the school since he started his type rating so I do not know if Wizz Air do not let their pilots fly as FI or if the flight time as FI counts towards the total 900 hours in airline per year but I believe it does not). What I do know is that there are part time instructors from Ryan Air instructing all over Poland (so it must be legal or else someone would prove otherwise) and definitely there are official part time instructors from LOT and the airline have nothing against it (but as I said I did not hear anyone flew 900 hours at LOT per year).

As for the part why instruct? What about actually enjoying flying, people write like if it was a normal boring job behind a desk and not flying that the pilots do. And this "crazy enough to crawl into a small tin box and doing even more hours then something might be wrong with him" is actually almost insulting many dedicated instructors who actually like to teach people to fly and enjoy flying the smaller aircraft just as much as they enjoy flying in the airline (In Poland there are actually many people who closed their businesses or put someone in their family to run them just to fly and they do not care its much less money than they had from the business, for them its 100 % enjoying the job.). I do not know how it is in the UK or other places, but in Poland I have actually not met an instructor who do not like to fly. Tired after a whole day of instructing of course but not liking to fly.... did not happen. There are jobs behind a desk that give more money, pilotage is also about enjoying flying at least its what I do believe and what I saw my instructors do.... especially the most dedicated instructor.

Last edited by KT1988; 27th Apr 2019 at 21:12.
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Old 28th Apr 2019, 05:02
  #845 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
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Age: 37
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Wizz destroyed Malev, and nearly destroyed LOT, time will tell if LOT will survive, as LOT at least are trying to do things the right way, giving their employees proper conditions, but Wizz are much the TC's of the whole industry towards the bottom.

That comment is wrong, LOT does not give there employees a proper contract for the last couple of years LOT has been giving there employees a self employment contract, no vacation pay, no sick, no liability insurance, no per dimes, remember thats a national airline, owned by the state. Wizzair is the only airline in Poland that offers a local contract, the rest Ryanair, Enter, LOT are self employment. Also for the type rating you can pay for or have it deducted from your pay for 3/4 years, and have half the money payed back after those years from the company. Correct me if I’m wrong but hasn’t British airways starting charging there cadets 18000 pounds for a type rating, or Easyjet 35000 pounds. Were is the justification in the cost for those type ratings.
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Old 28th Apr 2019, 09:21
  #846 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Poland
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Well since Wizz Air is paying those salaries in nations where you can be employed as a company legally and where the cost of living is much lower then it have to be relevant to this topic. Being able to get employed as a company is a great bonus to the pilot especially in nations like Poland where you can get as low company tax as 9% or 19 % flat with possibility to get value added tax refunds on everything relevant to performing your job. I have not heard about many pilots in Poland who would prefer to pay 32 % tax and not be able to deduct costs from the tax in exchange for..... nothing extra from the state.

Its also relevant that for example in Poland a Wizz Air captain can buy a nice 300 m2 home for like 290 000 Euro, in Scandinavia such a home would cost about 630 000 Euro (Norway). So is it really a joke if a captain earn 45 000 Euro in Wizz Air in Poland and for example a Captain in SAS earn 105 000 Euro but have to pay 36 % tax from over half of it and then 47 % from the rest of it. And then the captain from SAS have to pay over double the price for his house, he have to pay from double to quadruple price for his car depending on the engine he wish if its 2.0 TDI he gets away with double price but if its 6.0 V12 then the price will be quadruple. The if he goes to a shop to buy food he will pay at least double, then if he go for restaurant he will pay at least triple price......

So its definitely relevant to the topic what can the pilot get for his salary in the country of residence given by the airline. Of course Wizz Air could pay more but that is a different story than the fact that it does you little good with a double salary if everything is over double as expensive and the tax is much higher. As for Ryan Air from what I heard some captains can make about 100 000 Euro per year with a base in Poland, while I know for sure some FOs get many months with like 4500 Euro ++ per month and base in Poland that is of course included every bonus etc. I do not know about salaries in Wizz Air but I believe they also get some bonuses and that the 20 000 and 45 000 are base salaries with no bonus. And then it suddenly definitely does not look like a joke taking into account different taxation and prices in Poland.
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Old 28th Apr 2019, 09:27
  #847 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
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It's probably flight pay on top of that, which in Wizz Air depends on air distance travelled and landings (I hope both as PF and PNF).

Yep, I did some research in the meanwhile

By the way LOT T&C's are far from good. Their pilots are all employed through LOT Crew as contractors. And many left to Wizz and Ryanair AFAIK.
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Old 28th Apr 2019, 10:37
  #848 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Poland
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@2unlimited: Well I believe you talk from a pilot based in UK perspective and then I can understand that maybe while living in UK and being employed as a company means bending the law. I thought about Wizz Air pilots based in Poland and I believe the Switzerland thing is for people based in nations where being employed as company is not legal. Because in Poland both LOT and Ryan Air do it the way I described with no Switzerland involved so I do think Wizz Air would not wish to create a complicated scheme for something that is totally legal in Poland and do not require a Swiss contract. As for the pilots employed in UK, Germany and France I believe they prefer to be employees than being employed as a company because of the benefits you talk about. But here I was talking about Polish pilots with bases in Poland who like living in their homeland and between them you will really find very few who wish to not be self employed and pay 32 % tax. I have not heard any instructor flying for the airlines say he would rather pay more tax and not get any extra benefit from the state. So what is popular in UK does not have to be popular in Poland and Wizz Air got most bases in the Eastern Europe.

As for SAS salaries the last I heard was that captain salary is about 1.000.000 NOK brutto and that converted is about 105 250 Euro, maybe they got something extra recently since salaries everywhere are improving. As for the housing I believe you are back in 1990s if you say homes in Poland do not get heating or electricity and that the government control it, you would really struggle to get a house in Norway for 700 000 Euro with the standard of a Polish house for 300 000 Euro. I do not know if its allowed to post links on the forum but I can PM you a link to luxury houses in Poland for 300 000 Euro that you will not find for 700 000 Euro in Norway for example. Of course Germany and France is a totally different case there maybe the Wizz Air offer would not be money wise attractive but the Ryan Air one from Poland well some captains get a really nice netto salary in Poland, you would have to get Lufthansa or KLM etc. to beat that after tax and how many spots (especially for captains I read some wait like 10-20 years to become captain there) are there at legacy carriers? Oh and I hope no one find this post polluting the topic because its definitely relevant for terms and conditions where you are going to get a base, what you will pay in tax and what cost of living you will have. Its also relevant for pilots to know I believe that they do not risk housing with no electricity and heating if they get a base in Poland unless they rent a shack in the middle of a forest.

PS. From what I heard in Poland for those who dream about great salaries the dream is rather Emirates (personally I would not wish to live in Dubai just to get more money (only the wide-body aircraft would be tempting), if I could choose freely then 787 at LOT would be perfect for my dreams (but I will really enjoy any aircraft at any airline), so I understand your Cluj example) than Lufthansa or KLM, so I believe there are differences between where pilots originate from that shape their beliefs or expectations.

Last edited by KT1988; 28th Apr 2019 at 10:56.
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Old 28th Apr 2019, 10:52
  #849 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2017
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For NTR FOs the bond is 4 years, monthly deductions of 415 euros from your salary. You get paid a bonus of 10k euros on the 49th month of work. For those willing to stay with the company for 4 years or more this is not a bad deal at all.
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Old 28th Apr 2019, 11:11
  #850 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
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Nobody dreams of Emirates anymore.

And the SAS deals not my favourite, but there is more than just basic salary .
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Old 28th Apr 2019, 11:18
  #851 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Constant92 View Post
For NTR FOs the bond is 4 years, monthly deductions of 415 euros from your salary. You get paid a bonus of 10k euros on the 49th month of work. For those willing to stay with the company for 4 years or more this is not a bad deal at all.
I thought it was 3 years and the amount bonded was 12k or 15k? When has it changed?

Living in Poland for 5 years is not a problem for me. I lived already for a couple of years there and did like it.
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Old 28th Apr 2019, 12:11
  #852 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2017
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Originally Posted by Banana Joe View Post
I thought it was 3 years and the amount bonded was 12k or 15k? When has it changed?

Living in Poland for 5 years is not a problem for me. I lived already for a couple of years there and did like it.
Don't know exactly when it was changed, at least I know this is applicable to future cadets myself included. Life in Poland has improved significantly in recent years, one cannot put all Eastern European countries in the same basket, there are some big disparities between them.
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Old 28th Apr 2019, 17:23
  #853 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2017
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Originally Posted by 2unlimited View Post
How many months do you have to pay the 415 Euros a month? Is that for the entire 4 years?
Correct, you get deducted 415 euros each month from your salary during 48 months, bonus payment of 10k of the 49th month.
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Old 28th Apr 2019, 17:27
  #854 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
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It used to be 15k for 36 months and the 37th month you would get 7,5k back.
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Old 28th Apr 2019, 17:37
  #855 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Poland
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@2unlimited: From what I read you write here (I did not read your 800 posts on the forum) it looks like you actually worked for Wizz Air and that is how you know what they tell you to do or what rules they got? Or is it something you heard other people say? Because from what I heard while speaking with Wizz Air pilots it did not look like that they make you sign a Switzerland deal and you can do the same as LOT and Ryan Air does. That is accept your local company. But I will ask just to know, there is not only Wizz Air that got bases in Poland and for example personally I just somehow feel more for Boeing and also Embraer or Bombardier (CRJ, but I would not be unhappy if LOT offered Q400 as first job) aircraft than Airbus (But I would of course be very happy with Airbus if that was what I was offered when getting an airline job its not the point to start thinking what aircraft you like best or dream of flying).

As for contracts I would always still prefer being employed as a company no matter what kind of job I did because it gives me more freedom and also to do my own taxes. And actually in Poland (and probably many other nations also in western Europe and US) even if you are employed as an employee you can still get fired if you fail at a normal desk job. So failing in a pilot job (where you are responsible for the life of many passengers + ground personnel) should not surprise anyone that the company may decide to fire someone they find out is not up to the job. Just like you wrote about that pilot who failed the ILS and they still gave him a chance (maybe it was as you said a bribe but if you did not see anyone bribing or got it confirmed somehow (its speculation then), then maybe they believed he would get better/learn) but it proved later on he did not train himself up to the job. Imagine the case from the other side of an business owner, if you had an employee who fail at stuff or skip his tasks, or insult other employees etc. itd. you name it, would you like not being able to fire the person even if he did not have responsibility for human life like the pilot? Or the other way around if you were a captain (maybe you are as I said I did not read your 800 previous posts) would you like to have an unfirable copilot in the cockpit who fail doing his tasks all the time and do not learn with time?
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Old 28th Apr 2019, 18:44
  #856 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
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My 4 years in wzz was a very good experience, as i mentioned here before. Met some excellent people, learned a lot, but it was time to move on. Never in those 4 years i have witnessed or heard of any kind of bribing to get in to or stay in (after a failed check for example) the company. Believe me, whoever failed or got fired was due to always a very good reason, nothing personal, afaik. For failed pilots there was always a chance to retrain and recheck again, there was always a second chance, but of course some had a really shitty attitude, and left like crybabies venting their frustration out about the company all over the show. On the other hand the company i recently flew for, due to their highly unionised nature, had some people who were impossible to get rid of, regardless their performance both in the box and on the line. I wouldn't say that not having a union at all is a good thing, but having one wagging the company like it's tail can have results like people getting upgraded solely due to their seniority and not merit, etc. Could also lead to bankruptcy if it is combined with management who are just simply not having a clue on what they are doing. On the taxing issue it really depends on your homebase and that specific country's double taxation treaty with Switzerland. In some countries it is perfectly legal to be on a local contract, paying social locally, but taxed on your income in Switzerland. In some countries it is not - wzz uk contract for example. Confair contractors are a different kettle of fish, of course. Not too sure on what's going on there, but it looked fishy to me from the beginning so i chose a local gig for my time with them. The bond back then was fairly straightforward as well: roughly 400 euros pm for 15 months and 3 months resignation notice. Left on good terms. Did flew 900 hrs or close to every year, most of the time didn't get vacation when i wanted but then i have never felt forced into accepting flights on off days or using commander's discretion. No questions asked afterwards if i didn't feel like extending. Getting a reference letter from hr was easy, from flt.ops not so much, but then they gave me one after a few emails exchanged. That's my 2 cents. Do i recommend them? Yes, bcoz of brilliant training, maintenance and excellent people i met and no, due to the ever changing roster, not getting vacation and shitty bases (most of them).
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Old 28th Apr 2019, 21:01
  #857 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Poland
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@2unlimited: As for me it actually matters because its totally different if you worked there and really know what you are talking about, or if you heard it from a friends, friend or read somewhere on a forum and come with stuff like "people bribe themselves through assessment at Wizz Air" because its actually not something nice to say about an airline or actually about any business if its not true.

As for the other things you are writing you are saying like if people who are members of a union have the monopoly on saying what is good or bad for all pilots all the time when very many pilots are not members in any union. Actually most pilots (or any other person no matter if its a doctor, programmer, lawyer.... you name it) who have more capitalistic political views will probably not be a member of any union. Now I do not wish to go off topic but this seems to be relevant to both Wizz Air and any other airline that offer self employment as companies. In Poland I believe you will find most pilots to prefer self employment and not think of it as a cancer but a great benefit just like pilots in Emirates for example probably think of it as benefit to pay low taxes and not a cancer.

Again I do not wish to go off topic but since most Wizz Air bases are in Eastern Europe then people there might be interested that their chances for low taxation will not be removed. Actually the EU is changing but not into more Strasbourg control but quite the opposite different nations wish to have some sovereignty left and deciding what tax system a nation want is definitely part of its national laws. As the situation is today anyway the EU can not dictate different nations what laws about taxes they shall have (they can just require a minimum value added tax to be uniform). And once again its not tax authorities in Poland that let some law get bent. It is THE LAW in Poland that you can perform a service to a company as another company and the law you are talking about was discussed in the parliament but not even voted about since it got discarded. So it is the law in Poland and neither LOT or Ryan Air are bending any laws in Poland. As for Wizz Air I do not know about Switzerland contracts but if they use the same contracts as LOT or Ryan Air then they are not bending anything but doing everything according to the law at least in Poland. The UK law or French law or German law is NOT the law in the whole EU its national law. And I believe this is relevant to any Wizz Air pilot or any other pilot getting a job in Eastern Europe to check the local laws (or consult a professional company for help they are just 300 PLN per month in Poland for example) and not get talked into that they are bending the law or will get a tax man at the door because its not true.
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Old 28th Apr 2019, 23:31
  #858 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Poland
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@2unlimited: I am not saying people who wish to be employed instead of being employed as a company should not have such a possibility. They should definitely and also be able to make unions or whatever they desire so long as they do not force everyone on the same scheme. And Wizz Air is actually letting pilots choose by offering possibility to be employed as employee or be employed as a company. Pilots are free to choose. What I am saying all the time is that pilots should be free to CHOOSE whether they wish to be employed as an employee or as a company. Because you do realize that if airlines have to use more money on direct employment they will have less to pay as salary. So it should be up to the pilot to choose what kind of contract he wish and what suits him and his private life and desires in life. Not force everyone into the same scheme no matter what suits them best. Some, actually many people (just imagine how many EU national pilots choose to work outside of EU like for example in Emirates) wish to choose themselves and not have some union, state or politicians choose instead of them. I am definitely for pilots being able to have unions, employment contracts and everything they might wish personally, just skip the part of forcing everyone into the same scheme.

Either way EU commission is not in position to create national laws in member states actually even the EU parliament cannot force a state to adapt anything against its will (all the states must sign before something can be enforced). So once again according to law in UK, France, Germany etc. (I do not know if all those nation got equal labor laws) you are right and the law is probably bent and labor inspectorates can do something with it. But what I am trying to tell you is that neither Wizz Air, Ryan Air or LOT Polish Airlines are bending the Polish laws. Because in Poland the law is NOT the same as in UK or your reference nations. And probably in many other Eastern European nations the laws also differ and then telling people they bend the law and by this talking them into choosing financially worse terms is wrong. People should be aware of different laws in different EU states and its definitely relevant for Wizz Air since Wizz Air actually let pilots choose what kind of contract they prefer (of course it also goes the other way for example that pilots in UK should be aware of UK laws).

PS. For some people part of the joy of being a pilot is that it is NOT normal life with a desk job 8-16. So not everyone wish the same. Some people enjoy getting a overnight in a different base while others think its the worst thing. Why force everyone into one scheme?
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Old 28th Apr 2019, 23:51
  #859 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: World
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You donít get to choose to have your company invoicing Wizzair or stuff like that.
Either way, with Confair or direct contract, you WILL have swiss taxes deducted from your salary, whether you like it or not, and itís going to be you as a person to have a contract, not some company that you choose to set up.
Itís a take it or leave it kind of deal, zero bargaining power from your side: nobody is working for Wizzair the way you keep suggesting in the last 50 posts, and you are not going to be the first.
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Old 28th Apr 2019, 23:59
  #860 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Poland
Posts: 4
@dirk85: Ok if you are sure about it (work there or are otherwise sure) then clearly Wizz Air got a different deal for pilots employed as a company than LOT or Ryan Air and it does therefore not look so good (I do not know Swiss law). I do then not understand why Wizz Air should not want to do the same as other airlines in countries where its legal to be employed as a company. In Poland its legal not only for pilots but for everyone from plumbers to doctors (at private clinics) so its not a pilot specific thing.
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