BA?

[4star]

Just to reiterate. The current situation at BA is such that if you join BA as a DEP and are in your 30's (or older) and you want to go LH then you will most likely remain an FO.

Also I gather that the Bidline system is waited in favour of the top guys that,
leave aside, you can expect to not get a weekend off for a decade or so. This is worth thinking about if you have or plan to have kids.

I only mention the above because they don't necessarily emphasise it enough
when you go through the recruitment process. (at least that was my experience). I also agree that the situation at LGW is not certain.

[GS-Alpha]

I believe there is a serious change on the horizon within BA wrt seniority for command. At the moment, there are a considerable number of First Officers who are happy to sit in the right hand seat of a long haul aircraft and wait it out for a long haul command, rather than spend time as a short haul Captain. This means that traditionally, short haul commands are considerably less junior than long haul commands. These FOs who sit in the right hand seat have generally achieved their long haul command by about pp19 or 20 at the latest, and so have usually only experienced maybe one or two years of frozen pay at pay point 18. However things have changed considerably with the age legislation changes. Captains staying on for a further ten years means that the average pay point for getting a command is increasing considerably. Long haul FOs have always had a financial choice to make; bid for all available commands or accept a pay freeze on pay point 18. However, for NAPS pilots, this is a serious taxation issue now! About five years from now, a long haul command is very unlikely to occur much before pay point 24. If that long haul FO now hangs about and waits for a long haul command (without bidding for short haul), he/she is going to end up jumping from pay point 18 first officer pensionable pay to pay point 24 captain pensionable pay. For someone who has paid average contributions into NAPS, that is going to result in a tax bill in excess of £150k (yes you read that correctly). With the coming year's reduction to an annual allowance of 40k (and very likely 30k sometime within the next five years), there is literally going to be no unused allowance available, and so £150k cash is going to have to be found! Couple this with the pay point 18 freeze for at least 6 years rather than the current one or two, and you have a very very strong incentive to keep bidding for ALL available commands even for the most die hard long haul FOs. This is going to make the differential between long haul and short haul command seniority narrower than ever before. I think we could easily be looking at pay point 22 as the earliest point to obtain a short haul Heathrow command... And we'll have a lot of 'long haul' pilots very begrudgingly sat in the left hand seat of a short haul aircraft. Either that, or we'll have a lot more career FO's who can't afford to take a command due to the resultant tax bill, so they will sit on pay point 18 for the rest of their careers.

(Note. This is my own opinion and does not in any way reflect the opinion of my employer)

[FANS]

These will be the same projections that said no DEP recruitment for sometime, which then got changed in recent weeks.

£100k RHS with ability to live almost anywhere is not such a hardship.

If you're desperate to wear 4 stripes, yes there are better alternatives.

[GS-Alpha]

FANS, please don't get me wrong; I was not saying it was a hardship. I was simply laying out the decisions that people will have to make and therefore what is likely to happen to the seniority for various commands. I do however believe that it will no longer be a choice of waiting for a long haul command or taking that early short haul command. It will be a choice of never ever go for command, or take the first one you can no matter which fleet it is on. There will always be those that choose the long haul FO lifestyle and accept the loss of earnings, but that financial hit has got a whole lot larger and I therefore believe fewer people will choose the lifestyle.

[FANS]

GS - it's a very fair point you're making, but for those joining whom are under 30, the T&Cs will become very different over the next 30 years anyway.

Equally, I think a new cadet joining under 25 will probably not be line flying until retirement as the work highs and lows and challenges are different to a generation ago.

[Threethirty]

What's changed in regards to DEP recruiting other than the 12 employed on the 320 recently?

[SR71]

Equally, I think a new cadet joining under 25 will probably not be line flying until retirement as the work highs and lows and challenges are different to a generation ago.

I don't think they'll have a choice. Anyway, EU FTL's will allow it.



The cost of living in the SE isn't getting any cheaper....

Rate rise flagged up as London house prices soar - Telegraph

[FANS]

The cadets first couple of years will be v. hard going, but the days of cradle to grave flying at BA are unlikely. There's only so many years you can stomach today's joys of heathrow whether in a 320 or 380.

[SR71]

The cadets first couple of years will be v. hard going, but the days of cradle to grave flying at BA are unlikely. There's only so many years you can stomach today's joys of heathrow whether in a 320 or 380.

Everyone from Lawyers to workers at B&Q are saying the same thing.

But you won't have a choice.

The country is drowning in debt, the working population is shrinking and we're still not paying for the NHS or being forced to contribute to a pension...

[no sponsor]

Before everyone starts BA bashing, I can confidently say that working for BA still beats working at my previous outfit.

[Cattivo]

Not sure whether this is the usual BA baiting, but as an older new guy here are some reasons for joining (all been said before I'm sure).

1. The ability to pick and alter your roster even as a junior bod (no 'decade for a weekend off' in my experience).
2. Security.
3. Choice to change fleets.
4. Decent pay (certainly after a few years).
5. Decent hotels (for the most part).
6. Massive network.
7. Worldwide staff travel.
8. Very low cockpit-gradient culture (hence long-term RHS isn't a huge problem, not for me anyway as an ex-Capt).

Now, there's no doubt BA isn't the Mecca it once was (it has its downsides too) and I'm sure other airlines offer some, if not all, of the above but these were pretty good reasons for me and there are definitely no shortage of applicants when the doors open which is a pretty good indicator.

[FANS]

9. An airline willing to invest in its flightcrew
10. An employer not looking to take every penny it can off you - no TR, no zero hour contracts
11. Cadets and DEP selected on ability not ability to pay
12. Generally a well oiled machine for flightcrew (esp as only 2 bases)
13. PAX that are generally well behaved - but let's not debate that one
14. Demanding environment that is LHR!

Plenty of negatives especially amongst those that have not flown elsewhere in recent years!

[Wirbelsturm]

What a lot of people fail to see in BA with respect to a large number of LH SFO's is that they have worn 4 stripes before and aren't really that fussed about which seat they sit in as the 'panacea' of a command is not a priority whereas lifestyle is.

It's difficult to go from the top of a structure where choice is king to the bottom of the LHS structure where you lose all control over your working hours again. Couple that with the nice tax man taking a large chunk of your earnings again over £100,000 and the incentive to move is lessened. This will only get worse as those pilots who are on the money purchase pension scheme don't need the last two years gross earnings as a Captain to 'top up' their NAP's/APS pensions.

However, changes to the pay system and the fixed flying pay have taken out the 'plum' trips structures and based line selection and trip selection purely on personal preference therefore opening up the entire route structure to everyone from the most senior to the most junior.

There is a growing undercurrent of feeling for removing the PP18 cap given the retirement situation and the over crew of ex-BMI captains as the cap is seen as unrealistic and unfair. However you only need to bid for any command, there is no guarantee you will get one.

[Juan Tugoh]

The change from NAPS to BARP is more likely to increase the imperative to get into the LHS rather than decrease it. The concept of the last two years in the LHS to top up ones pension is irrelevant to those whose pension is dependent on contributions. The higher the contribution the greater the pension. The higher the salary the higher the contribution. Even junior SH captains earn more pensionable than senior RHS LH copilots. It s inevitable as BARPERs become eligible for a command more are likely to jump ASAP. Sure there will be a few that go and sit on long haul for a long time but IF people think on their pensions they are more likely to jump to the LHS sooner. The days of the anomaly whereby one could sit in the RHS for a long time and it not impacting your pension will soon be a thing of the past.

[Woolfgang]

GS-Alpha, excuse my ignorance but what do you mean by an FO being frozen on pay point 18?
I'm RAF and in my last year of service so am looking closely at the potentential opportunities out there.

[mr ripley]

A technicality. FOs are frozen on PP18 unless they bid for all LHR commands.

[GS-Alpha]

More specifically, you are frozen on pp18 unless you consistently bid for all available Heathrow commands and you are eligible to bid. In practice BALPA have recently determined that this means you must be bidding for all LHR commands every year from pp16 onwards, and you cannot change aircraft type from pp13. (If you change aircraft you will be frozen on it for 5 years, during which time you are no longer eligible to bid for commands on other aircraft and so your pay will be frozen at pp18). The terms are a lot more restrictive than most people realise.

[binsleepen]

Hi Woolfgang,

In BA there were 24 but now 34 pay points in each rank. When you join BA you start on PP1 and move up one level each year on the anniversary of your date of joining. On the 34 PP scale each increment is worth about £1750 before tax.

On the old PP24 scale First Officers were frozen on reaching PP18 if they failed to bid for a command. This stopped people sitting in the right hand seat taking alot of money without stepping up to take some extra responsibility.

The new bid results came out yesterday so BA will now have an idea of where the gaps in the year to come will be. As always there will be vacancies on the A320 as people move up to long haul as shown by the phone calls last week. The more interesting question is whether there will be any long haul gaps.

The only successful LH bids were onto the 777, 787 and 380 so if bids off the 757 and 747 (onto those 3 types or command upgrades) exceed the drawdown of the 75 and 74 then there maybe gaps. How BA square the circle of seniority and unsuccessful bids onto the 74 and 75 and then recruiting DEPs I have no idea.

Flight deck chat suggests that there may be DEP recruitment in the spring, but that was last weeks plan.

All the best.

[Juan Tugoh]

Hi Woolfgang, the freeze at Pay point 18 is a pay freeze. It applies if you choose to remain in the RHS beyond PP18 rather than move to the LHS - effectively meaning a move to SH in the current climate. BUT you would be a fool to think that if you were to join now the situation that exists now would still be extant in 18 years time.

[Full Left Rudder]

Out of interest, if someone is blocked at pp18 for say 5 years, but then applies for and gains a command, would he go onto pp19 on the captain scale or pp23/24?