Hats off to the RPG!
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: The Kitchen
Posts: 138
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Accept that we are collectively responsible and move on...
But we should not just move on!
If we do what happens next? Pay for training for upgrade(with the result that many of these poor indebted loco pilots won't afford it, and only the rich become captains)
Pay for all subsequent ratings at airlines they aim for in the desert?
Do people want this nonsense spread into other industries? There is an over-supply of workers in many industries.
Do you want you or your children taught by the teacher who paid a school for their first job out of college?
Operated on by the richest intern surgeon?
Have your car serviced by the guy who paid the garage for a job?
Your medicine quality tested by the microbiologist who stumped up the cash to a pharmaceutical company?
Airspace defended by the guy paying for a Eurofighter rating?
Fight along side someone whose parents paid for their SA80 rating?
**** no you wouldn't!!
Its our responsibility to stop it and remove them.
Type "paying for a job" into Google. The first result is: "Should I Pay For Job Listings?" and paying for work in the aviation sense isn't even found.
Other professionals even think paying 30 dollars to advertise their CV is questionable, not to mind paying 30k to pass an interview.
Supporting these people is a loss for everyone.
Last edited by TeaTowel; 11th Jun 2013 at 19:09.
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: The Kitchen
Posts: 138
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I can't imagine how the RPG getting themselves organised would fail to make the industry as a whole a bit better.
Last edited by TeaTowel; 11th Jun 2013 at 19:18.
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Krug departure, Merlot transition
Posts: 658
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
top9un, not sure if you're agreeing with me or not? Your two bust companies + Malev however are a case in point: none of these airlines were known in the industry for over-generous T&Cs, and yet they folded. Why? For the same reasons all airlines fold, incompetent management decisions in the cut-throat high-overhead environment that is aviation.
Some of the airlines that treat their pilots best (LH and CX come to mind, as does Southwest in the US) are also some of the most consistently profitable, because they are (relatively) well managed.
In my carrier (legacy southeast Asian major, virtually always profitable) pilots are paid fairly well. And yet TOTAL staff costs (ie all staff included, flight/cabin crew and ground staff) average around 15-16% of our airline's costs, only just ahead of landing/parking/route expenses, and well under half of fuel costs (over 40% of total costs!). As you can see, a simple bungling of a fuel hedging decision might have more effect on the bottom line than our pay. And while I don't know the exact portion of that 16% staff costs that goes to our pilots, considering we have something like ten or twelve thousand flight attendants and over fifteen thousand ground staff I would be surprised if it were much more than 4% of total costs. This in an airline well-known for above-average pilot salaries.
Of course management will bang on about how they can't possibly afford to pay you any more, it's their job to keep costs in check; as a matter of fact their bonuses are often directly proportional to how well they keep your pay under control! Don't fall for their spiel: in my previous airline, we once calculated that even if all the pilots had gone to work absolutely for free, they still would have made a loss.
Once again, good luck to the FR pilots in their fight for better T&Cs: you are only worth what you can negotiate.
Some of the airlines that treat their pilots best (LH and CX come to mind, as does Southwest in the US) are also some of the most consistently profitable, because they are (relatively) well managed.
In my carrier (legacy southeast Asian major, virtually always profitable) pilots are paid fairly well. And yet TOTAL staff costs (ie all staff included, flight/cabin crew and ground staff) average around 15-16% of our airline's costs, only just ahead of landing/parking/route expenses, and well under half of fuel costs (over 40% of total costs!). As you can see, a simple bungling of a fuel hedging decision might have more effect on the bottom line than our pay. And while I don't know the exact portion of that 16% staff costs that goes to our pilots, considering we have something like ten or twelve thousand flight attendants and over fifteen thousand ground staff I would be surprised if it were much more than 4% of total costs. This in an airline well-known for above-average pilot salaries.
Of course management will bang on about how they can't possibly afford to pay you any more, it's their job to keep costs in check; as a matter of fact their bonuses are often directly proportional to how well they keep your pay under control! Don't fall for their spiel: in my previous airline, we once calculated that even if all the pilots had gone to work absolutely for free, they still would have made a loss.
Once again, good luck to the FR pilots in their fight for better T&Cs: you are only worth what you can negotiate.
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: uk
Posts: 302
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Teatowel.
I coud help you to drag the thread down by responding that I know lots of good people in RYR who did not buy themselves in. Some who did 5 years or more porridge when a flying instructor job was the only way to stay in the industry. Some who worked their way up the hard way, only to be made redundant. Even some who have committed themselves to a career there, and have fought their way into training positions (and the training is highly regarded throughout the industry).
Instead, I take the positive, forward looking stance and re-qoute your quote.
I coud help you to drag the thread down by responding that I know lots of good people in RYR who did not buy themselves in. Some who did 5 years or more porridge when a flying instructor job was the only way to stay in the industry. Some who worked their way up the hard way, only to be made redundant. Even some who have committed themselves to a career there, and have fought their way into training positions (and the training is highly regarded throughout the industry).
Instead, I take the positive, forward looking stance and re-qoute your quote.
I can't imagine how the RPG getting themselves organised would fail to make the industry as a whole a bit better.
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: @work
Posts: 166
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Oh wow another hamsterwheel churning about TRSS.
Put it this way then: You are 99% of you self-serving destroyers of this fine industry. Why? Because you paid for training. Any training. Did you fund your ATPL? CPL? Did you purchase an MCC-course? Sim-time preparing for an interview?
Ah, so you went and purchased an advantage that your poor fellow pilot could not buy for himself. Tut tut... poor form old chap.
So, let's be rid of the hypocrisy once and for all by not splitting hairs and climbing up ivory towers, high horses and what-not.
Unless you came from a. military training having not spent one red cent/penny or b. an airline's ab-initio program a la lufthansa or KLM having spent an equal amount of zero monies, YOU too are part of the infamous pay-to-fly crowd.
You can try and wriggle out of it sure enough, but to me it's all or nothing baby. You either whore, or you do not. And before you go all huff and puff, yes of course I place myself squarely in the "sold out my profession by purchasing an ATPL"-misfits. I'm fine with it. Pragmatism, you dig. One does what one can to get by and all the rest of it.
Lastly, ponder this; if the pay for training door truly didn't exist. If flight schools were closed institutions and all you had were military programs and zero-hours cadet programs with 8 slots and 56000 applicants, how many of you wining about TRSS b*tches would have a job right NOW? I see many camels and many very small needle-eyes.
Pipe down, "right stuff"...
Put it this way then: You are 99% of you self-serving destroyers of this fine industry. Why? Because you paid for training. Any training. Did you fund your ATPL? CPL? Did you purchase an MCC-course? Sim-time preparing for an interview?
Ah, so you went and purchased an advantage that your poor fellow pilot could not buy for himself. Tut tut... poor form old chap.
So, let's be rid of the hypocrisy once and for all by not splitting hairs and climbing up ivory towers, high horses and what-not.
Unless you came from a. military training having not spent one red cent/penny or b. an airline's ab-initio program a la lufthansa or KLM having spent an equal amount of zero monies, YOU too are part of the infamous pay-to-fly crowd.
You can try and wriggle out of it sure enough, but to me it's all or nothing baby. You either whore, or you do not. And before you go all huff and puff, yes of course I place myself squarely in the "sold out my profession by purchasing an ATPL"-misfits. I'm fine with it. Pragmatism, you dig. One does what one can to get by and all the rest of it.
Lastly, ponder this; if the pay for training door truly didn't exist. If flight schools were closed institutions and all you had were military programs and zero-hours cadet programs with 8 slots and 56000 applicants, how many of you wining about TRSS b*tches would have a job right NOW? I see many camels and many very small needle-eyes.
Pipe down, "right stuff"...
