FlyBe axing jobs
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Presumably the laid off cabin crew wouldn't be too chuffed with that arrangement either! It's a sad situation at Flybe, gross mismanagement has led to the potential loss of livelihood for a lot of extremely capable and company minded people. Best wishes to all concerned.
Last edited by RexBanner; 11th Nov 2013 at 10:47.
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Exactly which is why you have to get them into the company before any compulsory redundancy's.
They can't fill someone's job who has been made redundant for a year afterwards without looking at a lengthy and expensive court case.
If there in before things can be giggled to keep the cheap option.
They can't fill someone's job who has been made redundant for a year afterwards without looking at a lengthy and expensive court case.
If there in before things can be giggled to keep the cheap option.
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So what's going to happen to these guys/gals?
happens.As ever there'll be a lot of gnashing of teeth but they'll find jobs eventually, just as many thousands of redundant pilots have done before them. It often isn't pleasant but they'll get over it and they certainly have all our sympathy.
The lesson to learn, of course, is the importance of not signing up to personal training debts that remain in the event of redundancy, or to accept the risk if you do.
Let's hope there aren't too many pilots involved.
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Pardon my ignorance, but wouldn't it be the last pilots who got employed who will be shown the door? I mean if cadets have just recently been employed, would not they be the first to leave?
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Seniority (last in, first out) cannot be used any longer as the sole decision mechanism in redundancy scenarios.
It can be used as part of (it can be the major part) a solution that can include:
Disciplinary record, attendance record, sickness record - and others.
It can be used as part of (it can be the major part) a solution that can include:
Disciplinary record, attendance record, sickness record - and others.
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Maybe I don't understand enough of the policies involved making money with an airline... 
There seems to be an abundance of aircraft in the company, enough staff to fly them all, plenty of destinations that can handle them, all located in areas with plenty of willing pax to travel...
But most of their planes seem to sit on the apron most of the time even in summer, the crews are complaining they're not working enough hours, and always required to be augmented by those out of base, and spend more time on Airport Standby then On Duty actually to fly for a living. Those that do fly think it is ludicrous to 'only' fly 2 short flights <1 hour each way, which does seem a bit short for a day's work and seems a blatant disregards of resources.
Surely with a bit of imagination these parked aircraft can take to the skies again, as all is in place for them to do so, with fare paying pax to places of interest or offering a way for them to commute home. Not all pax want to fly domestic or Irish/French routes...
Instead we are hearing of retiring aircraft, reducing staff numbers, ...
There seems to be an abundance of aircraft in the company, enough staff to fly them all, plenty of destinations that can handle them, all located in areas with plenty of willing pax to travel...
But most of their planes seem to sit on the apron most of the time even in summer, the crews are complaining they're not working enough hours, and always required to be augmented by those out of base, and spend more time on Airport Standby then On Duty actually to fly for a living. Those that do fly think it is ludicrous to 'only' fly 2 short flights <1 hour each way, which does seem a bit short for a day's work and seems a blatant disregards of resources.
Surely with a bit of imagination these parked aircraft can take to the skies again, as all is in place for them to do so, with fare paying pax to places of interest or offering a way for them to commute home. Not all pax want to fly domestic or Irish/French routes...
Instead we are hearing of retiring aircraft, reducing staff numbers, ...
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It doesn't have to be last in first out any more.
The company can generate its own criteria which if it doesn't breach any discrimination laws can be used. 'Seniority can be in the criteria if a partial reduction in a base occurs.
But there is nothing stopping them closing a base and everyone from that base being made redundant with years and years of seniority. Where as 80 miles down the road there is new base crewed by new joins. They don't have to chuck out the new joins and transfer the closing base crew to that base.
Then of course 1 year later establishing the base as a crew base again.
The company can generate its own criteria which if it doesn't breach any discrimination laws can be used. 'Seniority can be in the criteria if a partial reduction in a base occurs.
But there is nothing stopping them closing a base and everyone from that base being made redundant with years and years of seniority. Where as 80 miles down the road there is new base crewed by new joins. They don't have to chuck out the new joins and transfer the closing base crew to that base.
Then of course 1 year later establishing the base as a crew base again.
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Let's hope they didn't sign up for training loans or anything else that they are personally liable for. If they did they'll have a heavy debt to carry. Caveat emptor/ happens.
happens.
But the fact is they will be able to fly 2 cadets for the same price as one senior FO who is out of bond including all the associated yearly training costs.
So to be honest I think they will be pretty safe as they will have been based somewhere which won't be in the firing line for cuts. When the cuts go through the base will be safe but no room for transfers. So the more expensive pilot will be made redundant.
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We need to see this in context, it is not a redundancy announcement, it is an annual financial report to shareholders. The company is required by law to divulge any information which may affect its share price.
What we see is a company telling shareholders that the company is in the process of turning a loss making disaster into someting worth investing in. They are no longer pouring shareholders money into a big black hole and have managed to make a small profit but times are tough.
They are getting more bums on seats as the general economy improves but they are still suffering from overcapacity and some routes are still making a loss. This means that they may need to reduce capacity and cut some routes in order to sustain their improvement.
Nothing has yet been decided but shareholders are being warned that there are still tough times ahead and management has the matter in hand.
Small regional airlines everywhere have always been, at best, marginal operations and in this case it appears that they tried to grow too fast.
It is not easy to get it right, aircraft have to be ordered years in advance and by the time they arrived the recession had taken a big bite out of demand.
Only time will tell what actually happens but some capacity reduction looks inevitable.
Watch this space.
What we see is a company telling shareholders that the company is in the process of turning a loss making disaster into someting worth investing in. They are no longer pouring shareholders money into a big black hole and have managed to make a small profit but times are tough.
They are getting more bums on seats as the general economy improves but they are still suffering from overcapacity and some routes are still making a loss. This means that they may need to reduce capacity and cut some routes in order to sustain their improvement.
Nothing has yet been decided but shareholders are being warned that there are still tough times ahead and management has the matter in hand.
Small regional airlines everywhere have always been, at best, marginal operations and in this case it appears that they tried to grow too fast.
It is not easy to get it right, aircraft have to be ordered years in advance and by the time they arrived the recession had taken a big bite out of demand.
Only time will tell what actually happens but some capacity reduction looks inevitable.
Watch this space.
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Not legally.
And why would an accountant care anyway. They just see numbers, they have groups of pilots which cost 40-60% than another group of pilots.
They will treat it exactly the same as a hardware decision. Do we keep an old girl airframe flying or do we get rid of it and keep the cheaper airframe.
And its a bit more than just a share holders announcement. I have started getting texts asking how much it would be to get an old rating on my type back, because they recon 100 pilots are going and they are in the firing line due to their base being top heavy in senior captains.
And why would an accountant care anyway. They just see numbers, they have groups of pilots which cost 40-60% than another group of pilots.
They will treat it exactly the same as a hardware decision. Do we keep an old girl airframe flying or do we get rid of it and keep the cheaper airframe.
And its a bit more than just a share holders announcement. I have started getting texts asking how much it would be to get an old rating on my type back, because they recon 100 pilots are going and they are in the firing line due to their base being top heavy in senior captains.
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The share price has been doing some weird and wonderful things...
https://www.google.co.uk/finance?q=L...d=0CC4Q2AEwAA#
https://www.google.co.uk/finance?q=L...d=0CC4Q2AEwAA#
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Skyjob: the answer lies on slides 23-26 of the BE city report:
http://www.flybe.com/corporate/pdf/F...tion-Final.pdf
http://www.flybe.com/corporate/pdf/F...tion-Final.pdf
89/168 routes unprofitable and pilots flying 374 hours a year (2011), no wonder they are against the ropes.
But that was 2 years ago, what are the annual hours for 2013?
But that was 2 years ago, what are the annual hours for 2013?
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V12 Thanks, I was right about utilization then...
Shame...
Just work the air-frame a bit harder, as you've got enough crew (least hours annual in the industry) to increase hours per crew on aircraft and it seems an easy calculation...
Then no job losses, more revenue making flights, more crew and aircraft efficiency and more choice for pax who then want to fly more as there is more choice!
Shame...
Just work the air-frame a bit harder, as you've got enough crew (least hours annual in the industry) to increase hours per crew on aircraft and it seems an easy calculation...
Then no job losses, more revenue making flights, more crew and aircraft efficiency and more choice for pax who then want to fly more as there is more choice!
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Not quite as simple as that. You can't simply compare an average fly be pilot on 400 ish hpa with an average fr/esy pilot doing 800 ish hpa and say the problem is productivity. They are not really doing the same job. Most fly be sectors probably average out at 0.55 to 1.30 ish. Ok I know they do some longer stuff but a lot of it is domestic around an hour stuff. Where as easy / Ryan will average 1.30 to 2.30 per sector with some canaries flights thrown in as well. Ok I know there is the odd dub floating around but looking at averages.
As most airlines do 4 sector days you can see even working flat out fly be crews will be building up less hours simply due to the type of flights they operate. You need to look at the number of duties they do than hours they fly to really judge productivity. So saying just get the crews working harder is easier said than done. Even if you moved to say six sector days I very much doubt there is enough extra business in the fly be sector to make it cost effective.
As most airlines do 4 sector days you can see even working flat out fly be crews will be building up less hours simply due to the type of flights they operate. You need to look at the number of duties they do than hours they fly to really judge productivity. So saying just get the crews working harder is easier said than done. Even if you moved to say six sector days I very much doubt there is enough extra business in the fly be sector to make it cost effective.
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To say the pilots are not productive is an insult to many at Flybe.
Granted I left 2 years ago but when I was there on the Dash at my Base I was on the limits of what the CAA would allow as a roster.
The problem is that apart from the 3 or 4 'big' bases, the rest are working far, far less and from talking to old friends and collegues that still hasnt changed. And while I wish nothing but the best for the pilots and cabin crew, it would seem that a new CEO has finally woken up to this, and from the 500 positions to go I think a fair chunk will be crew members.
Not the fault of the pilots at all, guys/girls at the 'less productive' bases would happily fly more, but inept managment and planning has led them all into this sad situation
Granted I left 2 years ago but when I was there on the Dash at my Base I was on the limits of what the CAA would allow as a roster.
The problem is that apart from the 3 or 4 'big' bases, the rest are working far, far less and from talking to old friends and collegues that still hasnt changed. And while I wish nothing but the best for the pilots and cabin crew, it would seem that a new CEO has finally woken up to this, and from the 500 positions to go I think a fair chunk will be crew members.
Not the fault of the pilots at all, guys/girls at the 'less productive' bases would happily fly more, but inept managment and planning has led them all into this sad situation