SENIORITY - The Seniority system in your airline
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Buddies
Quite a well argued topic so far. Only problem, no new arguments!
Airline pilots are extreemly opportunistic! Unluckily we seem to have a very strong trend to want to tramp on each other to get ahead, even for 1 position! Quite bizarre actually. Ernest K, Gann wrote about this, way back when. The "Merit" system is just a red-herring to try pull the wool over the others eyes. It is a pure corrupt system!
You get selected to an airline as a potential Captain. When the time arrives, you get promoted after you have passed the upgrade rig-marole..... No can hack it? Go back. One more attempt then stay back till 65. Period!
The wild cards are when there are no or insufficiently qualified instructors needed by the company for the in-house training.
The "other wild cards" are the BOGUS wild cards: the DEC's, when there are sufficient qualified F/O's in the airline to upgrade, but the airline chooses to recruit DEC's from outside. Purely mercenary on the part of the company.
The Yank adage "If it ain't broke, don't fix it!" applies.
Bear in mind the arguments used by the venerable accountants in any airline are only ever self-serving and never in the interst of the pilots, ever!
Airline pilots are extreemly opportunistic! Unluckily we seem to have a very strong trend to want to tramp on each other to get ahead, even for 1 position! Quite bizarre actually. Ernest K, Gann wrote about this, way back when. The "Merit" system is just a red-herring to try pull the wool over the others eyes. It is a pure corrupt system!
You get selected to an airline as a potential Captain. When the time arrives, you get promoted after you have passed the upgrade rig-marole..... No can hack it? Go back. One more attempt then stay back till 65. Period!
The wild cards are when there are no or insufficiently qualified instructors needed by the company for the in-house training.
The "other wild cards" are the BOGUS wild cards: the DEC's, when there are sufficient qualified F/O's in the airline to upgrade, but the airline chooses to recruit DEC's from outside. Purely mercenary on the part of the company.
The Yank adage "If it ain't broke, don't fix it!" applies.
Bear in mind the arguments used by the venerable accountants in any airline are only ever self-serving and never in the interst of the pilots, ever!
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No one ever talks about what seniority does for our $$$, historically I think seniority has/is causing a reduction in overall pay so while we debate the pros and cons we aren't watching the ball.
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Every one has two tries on upgrade with an 18 month cooldown period in between, if both are flunked he will continue on as FO for the rest of his life in the company.
Obviously the Fo was put forward to be checked and as such should be quite prepared to pass,it must be quite hard on the check airman to fail such a person knowing that the consequence would be a failed professional life..I would not like to be in the Check airman shoes one bit.
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This hornets' nest is being stirred up beautifully!
(The terms 'corrupt' and 'corruption' appear regularly. I will refer again to the map:2010 Corruption Perceptions Index -- Results. If the shoe fits, wear it!)
That very good aviation author Earnest Gann has been mentioned. Read his books carefully and you will find that he had no time for the seniority system, even devoting a chapter, "The Numbers - in a wicked, vengeful mood", in one of his books to the topic. He ended his airline career when he saw the unfairness of the system: he was sitting next to an older and far more experienced pilot who was his First Officer; this 'First Officer' had been an experienced Captain in an airline that had gone out of business and due to 'The Numbers' was only allowed to get a job starting again from the bottom of another seniority list, despite all his valuable experience. That was over half a century ago. At that point when Gann saw this ultimate unfairness, he decided that he had to get out of the industry. (Thank goodness he did for all those who have enjoyed his writings that followed!)
Which other profession has a system like that? Would a surgeon who suffered the closure of his hospital have to start again as a junior doctor at another hospital because of 'seniority lists'? If so, I would not want to be a patient at that other hospital knowing that they are wasting valuable talent and experience because of some dogmatic 'list' principle!
If pilots want to be viewed as professionals, they should behave as professionals and not have their heads buried in dogmatic principles that make them look like construction site workers who are insisting that they haver their chance at the concrete mixer based on the time or day that they arrived on site relative to another of the construction workers!
And yes, seniority will be one of the biggest restraints on pay: when pilots are prepared to leave an airline there is more likelihood of pay going up as a carrot to stay (as happens in other industries); when the stick of "you can't possibly leave and lose that golden position on the seniority list and start at the bottom of someone else's" is used pilots are less likely to leave and there is no reason to put up pay.
(The terms 'corrupt' and 'corruption' appear regularly. I will refer again to the map:2010 Corruption Perceptions Index -- Results. If the shoe fits, wear it!)
That very good aviation author Earnest Gann has been mentioned. Read his books carefully and you will find that he had no time for the seniority system, even devoting a chapter, "The Numbers - in a wicked, vengeful mood", in one of his books to the topic. He ended his airline career when he saw the unfairness of the system: he was sitting next to an older and far more experienced pilot who was his First Officer; this 'First Officer' had been an experienced Captain in an airline that had gone out of business and due to 'The Numbers' was only allowed to get a job starting again from the bottom of another seniority list, despite all his valuable experience. That was over half a century ago. At that point when Gann saw this ultimate unfairness, he decided that he had to get out of the industry. (Thank goodness he did for all those who have enjoyed his writings that followed!)
Which other profession has a system like that? Would a surgeon who suffered the closure of his hospital have to start again as a junior doctor at another hospital because of 'seniority lists'? If so, I would not want to be a patient at that other hospital knowing that they are wasting valuable talent and experience because of some dogmatic 'list' principle!
If pilots want to be viewed as professionals, they should behave as professionals and not have their heads buried in dogmatic principles that make them look like construction site workers who are insisting that they haver their chance at the concrete mixer based on the time or day that they arrived on site relative to another of the construction workers!
And yes, seniority will be one of the biggest restraints on pay: when pilots are prepared to leave an airline there is more likelihood of pay going up as a carrot to stay (as happens in other industries); when the stick of "you can't possibly leave and lose that golden position on the seniority list and start at the bottom of someone else's" is used pilots are less likely to leave and there is no reason to put up pay.
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Merit based system sounds nice, but what merit could a pilot achieve? On-time performance? Fuel economy? Less diversions, less missed approaches than average? Smooth landings?
I'm not really interested in how surgeons and other professions do it, I'm interested in how airlines could do it with pilots?
How do other professions, like say surgeons, view this quaint way of doing things?
Merit based system sounds nice, but what merit could a pilot achieve? On-time performance? Fuel economy? Less diversions, less missed approaches than average? Smooth landings?
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Quite a few newly-established first-world airlines don't use seniority any more.
How do other professions, like say surgeons, view this quaint way of doing things?
How do other professions, like say surgeons, view this quaint way of doing things?
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Merit based system sounds nice, but what merit could a pilot achieve? On-time
performance? Fuel economy? Less diversions, less missed approaches than average?
Smooth landings?
I agree, what surgeons, etc get up to in their profession is nothing to do with pilots. Pilots are all required to be up to standard, if they are not then they fail and are not eligible for promotion anyway. Being better than the one above you is no advantage since the one above is good enough, having met the standard. That only leaves seniority as a basis for promotion. Remember, to be considered for promotion one has to be eligible by meeting the criteria for: Licence, type rating, relevant experience, (relevant hours) and above all, suitability. Failing a series of checks as an FO would suggest you are not yet ready, therefore you don't meet the suitability requirement.
Most companies do a pre command assessment, often a LOFT exercise in the SIM and after passing that then comes the command training. So, even though one might have the seniority number, there are still a considerable number of hoops to be jumped through before being promoted to captain, it is by no means an automatic step.
Last edited by parabellum; 4th Jan 2013 at 22:01.
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Let's test this 'seniority' system for common sense and fairness.
(NB For 'he' read either 'he' or 'she'!)
'Pilot A', aged about 20, joins 'airline XYZ' straight out of flying school (don't know who paid for the flying school, it could have been the airline or it could have been mummy and daddy). He manages a mediocre result for his medium-sized jet type-rating course. Through several years as an F/O he manages adequate grades for all his sim and line checks. His command assessment grades are satisfactory but nothing at all outstanding. However, he is still short of total hours for a command. So, still in his 20s, he continues trundling up and down the same old routes building hours.
'Pilot B' works at an airport handling company saving every penny towards his flying training. Once he has his licence he qualifies as a flying instructor and gains experience instructing. During the summer he takes on a seasonal job as cabin crew with a holiday airline. His first airline job is with a regional turbo-prop airline. After serving his time as an F/O he gains a command on the turbo-prop. Then a medium-sized jet job comes available and he does extremely well on his type-rating course. His sim and line check grades are all very, very good and he scores highly in his command assessment grades. However, no commands are available just yet. The airline goes out of business. He gets a job with 'airline XYZ', requiring a new type-rating. Again, all his grades are outstanding but again, no commands are available just yet. He has an excellent cross-section of knowledge and experience in the industry: ground handling, cabin crew, flying instruction (so a potential future 'trainer'), several type-ratings (hence a proven track record in passing courses) and a wide range of airline experience. He has settled in well in 'airline XYZ'. A command should be available soon and he is well in line for it.
However, 'Pilot A' manages to scrap together the minimum number of hours required for a command just as it becomes available and trumps 'Pilot B' to this due to "The Numbers": his 'superior' position on the seniority list!!
Does that involve common sense and is it fair? In which other industry would people tolerate a system like that??
(Wouldn't it be much fairer if there was a 'first-come-first-served' system where pilots go onto a list as they meet the requirements and get promotion, etc., as places become available in that first-come-first-served order. In that way 'Pilot A' would not have been able to trump 'Pilot B' as he would only have met the requirements after 'Pilot B'. Likewise with other moves such as base or fleet transfers, first-come-first-served would be fairer. For example: 'Pilot D' has joined the airline based at 'GHI' base, but his family live near 'JKL' base so he would really, really like a transfer to 'JKL'. 'Pilot C' has no interest in moving to 'JKL' base until just before a position there becomes available he meets a girl (or boy!) who lives near 'JKL' and puts in a bid for it and because he has "The Numbers" in his favour with a higher position on the seniority list, he trumps 'Pilot D' who ends up having to spend longer away from his family. Surely a first-come-first-served system for transfer bids would be a lot fairer?)
And all along, pay in 'airline XYZ' has lagged behind others as the pilots have been reluctant to leave for better paid jobs for fear of losing their 'golden positions' on that seniority list and management have been rubbing their hands with glee at this ability to hold pay down so easily!!
(NB For 'he' read either 'he' or 'she'!)
'Pilot A', aged about 20, joins 'airline XYZ' straight out of flying school (don't know who paid for the flying school, it could have been the airline or it could have been mummy and daddy). He manages a mediocre result for his medium-sized jet type-rating course. Through several years as an F/O he manages adequate grades for all his sim and line checks. His command assessment grades are satisfactory but nothing at all outstanding. However, he is still short of total hours for a command. So, still in his 20s, he continues trundling up and down the same old routes building hours.
'Pilot B' works at an airport handling company saving every penny towards his flying training. Once he has his licence he qualifies as a flying instructor and gains experience instructing. During the summer he takes on a seasonal job as cabin crew with a holiday airline. His first airline job is with a regional turbo-prop airline. After serving his time as an F/O he gains a command on the turbo-prop. Then a medium-sized jet job comes available and he does extremely well on his type-rating course. His sim and line check grades are all very, very good and he scores highly in his command assessment grades. However, no commands are available just yet. The airline goes out of business. He gets a job with 'airline XYZ', requiring a new type-rating. Again, all his grades are outstanding but again, no commands are available just yet. He has an excellent cross-section of knowledge and experience in the industry: ground handling, cabin crew, flying instruction (so a potential future 'trainer'), several type-ratings (hence a proven track record in passing courses) and a wide range of airline experience. He has settled in well in 'airline XYZ'. A command should be available soon and he is well in line for it.
However, 'Pilot A' manages to scrap together the minimum number of hours required for a command just as it becomes available and trumps 'Pilot B' to this due to "The Numbers": his 'superior' position on the seniority list!!
Does that involve common sense and is it fair? In which other industry would people tolerate a system like that??
(Wouldn't it be much fairer if there was a 'first-come-first-served' system where pilots go onto a list as they meet the requirements and get promotion, etc., as places become available in that first-come-first-served order. In that way 'Pilot A' would not have been able to trump 'Pilot B' as he would only have met the requirements after 'Pilot B'. Likewise with other moves such as base or fleet transfers, first-come-first-served would be fairer. For example: 'Pilot D' has joined the airline based at 'GHI' base, but his family live near 'JKL' base so he would really, really like a transfer to 'JKL'. 'Pilot C' has no interest in moving to 'JKL' base until just before a position there becomes available he meets a girl (or boy!) who lives near 'JKL' and puts in a bid for it and because he has "The Numbers" in his favour with a higher position on the seniority list, he trumps 'Pilot D' who ends up having to spend longer away from his family. Surely a first-come-first-served system for transfer bids would be a lot fairer?)
And all along, pay in 'airline XYZ' has lagged behind others as the pilots have been reluctant to leave for better paid jobs for fear of losing their 'golden positions' on that seniority list and management have been rubbing their hands with glee at this ability to hold pay down so easily!!
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Seniority just makes it easy for management - they don't have to set up a reasonable system of measurement, involve HR with all sorts of metrics and take a load (more) s*** from disgruntled employees.
All they have to say is "you have 1 day's more seniority than him so you get the job"
TBF the British Armed Forces worked on that principal for years - in Nelson's time once you became Captain it was just a matter of survival and you'd make Admiral one day
All they have to say is "you have 1 day's more seniority than him so you get the job"
TBF the British Armed Forces worked on that principal for years - in Nelson's time once you became Captain it was just a matter of survival and you'd make Admiral one day
As parabellum said you still have to be up to the job and that may entail all sorts of assessments along the way. The idea that a sub standard senior FO trumps the better qualified junior pilot is a fantasy IMHO.
Also, the anti seniority brigade are ignoring the pitfalls with a "merit" system eg getting promoted due to having: the right golf handicap, being seen as compliant ie not a trouble maker, having the right handshake, being ex military/Dan Air/Air Europe etc etc.
Also, the anti seniority brigade are ignoring the pitfalls with a "merit" system eg getting promoted due to having: the right golf handicap, being seen as compliant ie not a trouble maker, having the right handshake, being ex military/Dan Air/Air Europe etc etc.
Last edited by BBK; 9th Jan 2013 at 07:31.
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Regrettably I have seen the scenario you dispute too many times.
Seniority is a tool used in many organisations for promotions, redundancy and other HR so called policies.
It is resistant to abuse but not immune, the "merit" system is open to so many variations it is a terror to the less proficient brown noses, poor golf players and people who have a "life" outside the employment bubble.
If in my case I did not "Friday Night" at a particular hotel bar, own a goat so to speak of sing the praises of a particulay senior ars*&^ at a remote posting base, so no training/checking for me. This with a seniorority system!!!!
In the wider world, I trained and checked with many organisations of International standing including Alteon/Boeing, so was presumed competent, just not "flavoured" in a particular place and time.
In a perfect world, all are equal, so as this is not a perfect world, stay, walk or run away.
WE are what we sign, contracts are a minefield, just walk carefully.
I started in this Industry in 1961, it has only got worse since then.
Regrettably I have seen the scenario you dispute too many times.
Seniority is a tool used in many organisations for promotions, redundancy and other HR so called policies.
It is resistant to abuse but not immune, the "merit" system is open to so many variations it is a terror to the less proficient brown noses, poor golf players and people who have a "life" outside the employment bubble.
If in my case I did not "Friday Night" at a particular hotel bar, own a goat so to speak of sing the praises of a particulay senior ars*&^ at a remote posting base, so no training/checking for me. This with a seniorority system!!!!
In the wider world, I trained and checked with many organisations of International standing including Alteon/Boeing, so was presumed competent, just not "flavoured" in a particular place and time.
In a perfect world, all are equal, so as this is not a perfect world, stay, walk or run away.
WE are what we sign, contracts are a minefield, just walk carefully.
I started in this Industry in 1961, it has only got worse since then.
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Trossie,
Very interesting, however your assessment of fair is absurd in this industry. As a second generation in this industry, and having spent time on both of the big continents here are my 2 cents- at my former E.U carrier - your example comes to mind with your two pilots, one, can have have some young punk you had some connections and all of the sudden all of his former " experience " gets him as a DEC, this A hole and others I guess was " better " than others because of his " experience" who have been around this place for longer, and this A hole become a instructor, check airman, and director of safety, and some other pilot who has paid their dues must " wait" to up grade, and bend over- for a long time. Oh and what about the " selection panel"........ I can go on and on. Back in the good old North America we have the seniority system, is it perfect? No but I have not seen a better system........ Again in this industry LUCK and TIMING , that is the only common denominator. Good Luck Buddy.
Very interesting, however your assessment of fair is absurd in this industry. As a second generation in this industry, and having spent time on both of the big continents here are my 2 cents- at my former E.U carrier - your example comes to mind with your two pilots, one, can have have some young punk you had some connections and all of the sudden all of his former " experience " gets him as a DEC, this A hole and others I guess was " better " than others because of his " experience" who have been around this place for longer, and this A hole become a instructor, check airman, and director of safety, and some other pilot who has paid their dues must " wait" to up grade, and bend over- for a long time. Oh and what about the " selection panel"........ I can go on and on. Back in the good old North America we have the seniority system, is it perfect? No but I have not seen a better system........ Again in this industry LUCK and TIMING , that is the only common denominator. Good Luck Buddy.
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The Airline Seniority System Is Not Meant To Be Perfect, But Fair...
In USA the superlative airline Seniority system goes deeper, it includes a bidding system for lines of flying.
As opposed to being arbitrarily "rostered," pilots, according to their seniority number (longevity), get to choose which flights to fly. And what's wrong with that?
Senior pilots already have "paid their dues" as juniors. So why should a senior pilot be arbitrarily rostered and give up his rightful preference to fly a daytime LAX-HNL trip in exchange for a night LAX-JFK trip so that a more junior pilot can do the Honolulu day trip?
Junior pilots correctly have to wait and accumulate the necessary longevity to bid the preferred destinations.
In the rest of the world, where pilots are arbitrarily rostered, crewing suffers from severe corruption: Busybodies, brown-nosers, bullies and "friends" of scheduling staff continuously jockey for the best trip assignments and preferred Off days. It's an invisible flying club that thrives without a seniority system, without a bidding system and without a strong union.
As opposed to being arbitrarily "rostered," pilots, according to their seniority number (longevity), get to choose which flights to fly. And what's wrong with that?
Senior pilots already have "paid their dues" as juniors. So why should a senior pilot be arbitrarily rostered and give up his rightful preference to fly a daytime LAX-HNL trip in exchange for a night LAX-JFK trip so that a more junior pilot can do the Honolulu day trip?
Junior pilots correctly have to wait and accumulate the necessary longevity to bid the preferred destinations.
In the rest of the world, where pilots are arbitrarily rostered, crewing suffers from severe corruption: Busybodies, brown-nosers, bullies and "friends" of scheduling staff continuously jockey for the best trip assignments and preferred Off days. It's an invisible flying club that thrives without a seniority system, without a bidding system and without a strong union.
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Glueball,
I agree with you on principle, however a problem these days is the ever increasing age limit. Nobody retires!
At my airline when I joined the age was 55. That got extended to 60, then 65, now unlimited domestically. So although the senior have "done their dues" the junior (perhaps only 25 or 30 years in the company) will never become senior.
The airline is stagnant too!
I agree with you on principle, however a problem these days is the ever increasing age limit. Nobody retires!
At my airline when I joined the age was 55. That got extended to 60, then 65, now unlimited domestically. So although the senior have "done their dues" the junior (perhaps only 25 or 30 years in the company) will never become senior.
The airline is stagnant too!
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In my airline seniority just gives you a date if you have the minimum hs. Then you need to pass the command assessment. we have a 20 to 50% failure rate so seniority isn't any guaranty. Simple. It has its pros and cons.
It always have been and it will always will be like that. By contract we can hire DEC if there is not any FO qualified with the minimum hs. In the late 70s the airline hire some Jet DEC because no FO was qualified inside (y think about 8 guys). Nobody complains.
It works.
Seniority may be this is an issue for some experienced guys (some ex captains) how are now junior FO but they have the choice not to join the airline if they don't like the system. The airline nor the pilots have any responsibility if their previous outfit bankrupt because of an ineffective or corrupt management.
It always have been and it will always will be like that. By contract we can hire DEC if there is not any FO qualified with the minimum hs. In the late 70s the airline hire some Jet DEC because no FO was qualified inside (y think about 8 guys). Nobody complains.
It works.
Seniority may be this is an issue for some experienced guys (some ex captains) how are now junior FO but they have the choice not to join the airline if they don't like the system. The airline nor the pilots have any responsibility if their previous outfit bankrupt because of an ineffective or corrupt management.
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Seniority is still the best system to ensure that the time you put in your company is rewarded. Since few of us in North America jump laterally in this business you have to settle on getting on with the best company you can. Once you get there you are locked in because it is just too hard to change horses once you have been riding the same one for ten years or so.
I will give you an example on how this works:
Years ago I was a new 737 captain here in Cactusland. I had been a turboprop captain at the regional level but this was my first jet command. I was flying a trip with a former Eastern Airlines pilot, a super guy who was happy to be here even though he had been a DC 9 and 727 captain at Eastern and a check airman at that.
During the flight one of the flight attendants called up and asked to come up front. She came in, saw Henry, who was about late fifties at the time, and me, early thirties and still fit from playing rugby. She looked at both of us and said " I thought the captain sat in the left seat?" Henry started laughing and I said " Well yes, the captain does sit on the left side. I am actually the captain." She still looked puzzled until I said " I am the captain because I left my last airline before he left his last airline".
And that's how it works. If your airline craters and you get the chance to start over you do so. If it is a rapidly growing company like we used o be then you get your command back quickly. If it is a stagnant company then you just collect your paycheck and realize that this job is better than no job.
I will give you an example on how this works:
Years ago I was a new 737 captain here in Cactusland. I had been a turboprop captain at the regional level but this was my first jet command. I was flying a trip with a former Eastern Airlines pilot, a super guy who was happy to be here even though he had been a DC 9 and 727 captain at Eastern and a check airman at that.
During the flight one of the flight attendants called up and asked to come up front. She came in, saw Henry, who was about late fifties at the time, and me, early thirties and still fit from playing rugby. She looked at both of us and said " I thought the captain sat in the left seat?" Henry started laughing and I said " Well yes, the captain does sit on the left side. I am actually the captain." She still looked puzzled until I said " I am the captain because I left my last airline before he left his last airline".
And that's how it works. If your airline craters and you get the chance to start over you do so. If it is a rapidly growing company like we used o be then you get your command back quickly. If it is a stagnant company then you just collect your paycheck and realize that this job is better than no job.
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Most defences of Seniority are circular:
"I've done it, so you can do it!"
The status quo is what it is, because it always has been.
Disguised age discrimination.
Thank God for Galileo.
In a day and age where the scythe swings fairly arbitrarily, being willing to accept such huge effects on ones career so deep into it, seems like a fundamental lack of respect for, both oneself, and others.
This isn't 1961 anymore....
Senior pilots already have "paid their dues" as juniors. So why should a senior pilot be arbitrarily rostered and give up his rightful preference to fly a daytime LAX-HNL trip in exchange for a night LAX-JFK trip so that a more junior pilot can do the Honolulu day trip?
The status quo is what it is, because it always has been.
Disguised age discrimination.
Thank God for Galileo.
In a day and age where the scythe swings fairly arbitrarily, being willing to accept such huge effects on ones career so deep into it, seems like a fundamental lack of respect for, both oneself, and others.
This isn't 1961 anymore....