Required viewing for anyone contemplating a "career" in a well known LoCo airline
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What shocked me was the fact that the OP was drinking alcohol the night before the flight.
This post makes me wonder why the low cost airlines seem to have such a good safety record.
OP, now you know how the passengers feel in the airport and on the plane.
This post makes me wonder why the low cost airlines seem to have such a good safety record.
OP, now you know how the passengers feel in the airport and on the plane.
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Think most companies impose an 8hr rule (obviously won't work if you are trashed) with some preferring longer periods of abstinence.
Overiding requirement being, if you are tested, your level should be very low indeed.
Don't see how that stops someone having (say) a couple of Beers with an 06:00 report, assuming he arrived early enough the night before.
I think there are bigger problems at play here than someone having a Beer the evening before an early.
As I stated earlier, I am the OP, but did not produce the narrative.
Overiding requirement being, if you are tested, your level should be very low indeed.
Don't see how that stops someone having (say) a couple of Beers with an 06:00 report, assuming he arrived early enough the night before.
I think there are bigger problems at play here than someone having a Beer the evening before an early.
As I stated earlier, I am the OP, but did not produce the narrative.
Last edited by captplaystation; 16th Dec 2012 at 16:05.
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Good SOP's, + strict adherance to good SOP's. The risk ? . . . .believing/hoping that good SOP's are a substitute for experience.
The result, we have seen,is that 99% of the time they are. Good luck for the 1% of the flights requiring it , that the "appropriate " (and there are many in RYR) crew are on board.
The result, we have seen,is that 99% of the time they are. Good luck for the 1% of the flights requiring it , that the "appropriate " (and there are many in RYR) crew are on board.
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VC10man: To extrapolate from your reasoning then, most airlines from Afghanistan, Pakistan, and most of North africa will have the safety record we aspire to.
Well I'm staying away from that one, it's your argument, you run with it. Or you may be just too tired to think clearly if, like some of us you've been up since 3:00.
However, did you check whether your friendly neighbourhood brain surgeon visited the 19th hole at Wentworth on the way home yesterday?
Well?
Well I'm staying away from that one, it's your argument, you run with it. Or you may be just too tired to think clearly if, like some of us you've been up since 3:00.
However, did you check whether your friendly neighbourhood brain surgeon visited the 19th hole at Wentworth on the way home yesterday?
Well?
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To the author of the report and all other pilots who sympathise with his predicament:
Where is your dignity and professionalism?*
It is no secret that some airlines operate in this way, nor is it difficult to find the many miserable testimonials of the countless crew and passengers alike who have documented their grievances. *Surly anyone with half a brain would have done their research *before parting with their own hard cash to buy a job! Ever heard the phrase "you pays your and money you take your chances"? Never has a more relevant phrase applied. *Airlines are in business to make money and the loCo model relies upon maximising efficient use of staff to get more for less (more work hours using fewer staff, that's why they don't have time to answer the phone and listen to your problems)
When the company asked you to pay for your job that should have told you all you needed to know. *So why complain now? No sympathy from my end of the court pal, you reap what you sow and as long as armies of gullible lemmings like you queue up for a beating with a slap in the face and pay for it the better and more secure my end of the business will be, thank you kindly.
From a professional point of view, why were you so obsessed with having a beer less than 12 hours (ours and most OM restrictions) before flying? Especially as you knew that you had an early start in unfamiliar surroundings and were not feeling well? Why did you position on your day off? Check your part A, mine (uk AOC) defines duty as anything done by you at the behest of the company, you weren't positioning for your own benefit so unless your part A is completely different than mine then you must have been illegally operating a duty prior to FDP! Did you log this duty? My Ops Manual part A also stipulates a requirement to have a minimum of 12 hours rest prior to FDP (not withstanding discretion and reduced rest etc), it also mandates that you must make sure that you are fully rested and fit to fly, this is a self certifying regulation of course but anyone in a position of responsibility especially such as yours should respect. *How could you possibly fight the corner of the number 4 cabin crew when you clearly stated that you were not in a fit state yourself, not to mention the alcohol that to had consumed?? Fit for duty is a fundamental requirement of the job. *Let the company worry about the commercial ramifications of crewing a replacement for you! Or we're you too obsessed with not loosing a days cash?*
Reporting to an unfamiliar base having checked the weather the night before should have set off a note to self alarm in your brain- give plenty of extra time so as to relieve the inevitable pressure that all of your very predictable problems can and did create.
This report is a complete shambles, written and supported by people who have no more right to call themselves professionals let alone a Captain!! *It's your licence that the airline launches its aircraft on and only you as the captain decides how the day is going to pan out, there is obviously a plan from a commercial point of view but the captain has to consider this only as a factor for consideration, one of many, if you're not happy then do something about it. *The safe conduct of the flight is your responsibility and yours alone, the crew will help, as will the company but they all have their problems and agendas, it is the captains responsibility to ultimately bring them all together and speak up otherwise everyone else assumes that all is well until it's not. *Also, check out what your part A says about despatch ing to destination and the requirement to have at least two runways/airports available above the next most restrictive minima, ie if they have cat 1 ils then you can only plan VOR minima etc. I think you owe it to yourself, your family, your passengers, your crew, your company (not in order) and the house that you may end up landing on to review the way that you operate. Companies are like petulant children and will only ask of you what is legal and what you say that you can do. *They must be told otherwise they will assume all is fine, why should they think otherwise if you have not told them?*
They employ your licence, your time and your professional opinion and expect it all for a handsome reward. *If you drive off the taxiway or worse they will look to you for an answer and will absolve themselves of blame. *
From the outside looking in I see them providing good aircraft, good salaries and plenty of experience, ie a professionally run company who provide all the tools to do the job, if you are not up to the job and are too weak to step up and be a professional then I hope to goodness I never end up as a sorry passenger on your flight!! Get a life and enjoy it, stop looking to blame everyone else for your obvious misgivings and serious professional short comings. *You say that you will work an average of 9 block hours per day over five days. At 106 euro per scheduled block hour (the last I think I saw being advertised recently) this works out at 4770 euro earned over five days!!! And you are complaining like a spoilt child! Most people have to work a lot harder than you for far less money.
I truly hope that you don't try and get a job in corporate, you'd try ruining my terms and conditions too and you wouldn't manage the first day! Far too much flexibility required here! I love my job and I love hearing how miserable you career wreckers are in yours. The more of you fools there are the better my conditions are, and the best bit....when you get tired of it you head off to the desert and further improve my T&C's due lack of pilots at home. *I do pity the sandpit dwellers but then I guess you are all made for each other, just remember that there are also other nationals out there who have written the book on how to whinge, ever heard the phrase "it's not like this in A...." you'll also have plenty of expats who are poacher turned game keeper and love hating you... Check out 12 hours in the bunk that doesn't count towards duty!! You'll love that one.
From your own description and those of many other so called professionals on this forum I laugh at you and I am disgusted at your conduct. *You have offered yourselves for a beating and you completely deserve it. *Your career will never improve because you are a door mat for others to wipe their feet on, don't bother getting up, you lost the moment you asked to be walked over. *If I ever see you in uniform and smell alcohol on your breath (sounds like the security guards who badgered you had good reason, you must've looked rough) then I will report you to the authorities, your passengers deserve better.
You have a career that most mere mortals can only aspire to, in the same way that most people at some point in their lives dream of dating a supermodel (male or female) you have paid for it, jumped the queue and continue to pay to date whilst telling everyone else who are either less fortunate or more sensible than you that *the experience isn't that good after all and even though you are staying put you do so under protest!!*
Good luck*
Where is your dignity and professionalism?*
It is no secret that some airlines operate in this way, nor is it difficult to find the many miserable testimonials of the countless crew and passengers alike who have documented their grievances. *Surly anyone with half a brain would have done their research *before parting with their own hard cash to buy a job! Ever heard the phrase "you pays your and money you take your chances"? Never has a more relevant phrase applied. *Airlines are in business to make money and the loCo model relies upon maximising efficient use of staff to get more for less (more work hours using fewer staff, that's why they don't have time to answer the phone and listen to your problems)
When the company asked you to pay for your job that should have told you all you needed to know. *So why complain now? No sympathy from my end of the court pal, you reap what you sow and as long as armies of gullible lemmings like you queue up for a beating with a slap in the face and pay for it the better and more secure my end of the business will be, thank you kindly.
From a professional point of view, why were you so obsessed with having a beer less than 12 hours (ours and most OM restrictions) before flying? Especially as you knew that you had an early start in unfamiliar surroundings and were not feeling well? Why did you position on your day off? Check your part A, mine (uk AOC) defines duty as anything done by you at the behest of the company, you weren't positioning for your own benefit so unless your part A is completely different than mine then you must have been illegally operating a duty prior to FDP! Did you log this duty? My Ops Manual part A also stipulates a requirement to have a minimum of 12 hours rest prior to FDP (not withstanding discretion and reduced rest etc), it also mandates that you must make sure that you are fully rested and fit to fly, this is a self certifying regulation of course but anyone in a position of responsibility especially such as yours should respect. *How could you possibly fight the corner of the number 4 cabin crew when you clearly stated that you were not in a fit state yourself, not to mention the alcohol that to had consumed?? Fit for duty is a fundamental requirement of the job. *Let the company worry about the commercial ramifications of crewing a replacement for you! Or we're you too obsessed with not loosing a days cash?*
Reporting to an unfamiliar base having checked the weather the night before should have set off a note to self alarm in your brain- give plenty of extra time so as to relieve the inevitable pressure that all of your very predictable problems can and did create.
This report is a complete shambles, written and supported by people who have no more right to call themselves professionals let alone a Captain!! *It's your licence that the airline launches its aircraft on and only you as the captain decides how the day is going to pan out, there is obviously a plan from a commercial point of view but the captain has to consider this only as a factor for consideration, one of many, if you're not happy then do something about it. *The safe conduct of the flight is your responsibility and yours alone, the crew will help, as will the company but they all have their problems and agendas, it is the captains responsibility to ultimately bring them all together and speak up otherwise everyone else assumes that all is well until it's not. *Also, check out what your part A says about despatch ing to destination and the requirement to have at least two runways/airports available above the next most restrictive minima, ie if they have cat 1 ils then you can only plan VOR minima etc. I think you owe it to yourself, your family, your passengers, your crew, your company (not in order) and the house that you may end up landing on to review the way that you operate. Companies are like petulant children and will only ask of you what is legal and what you say that you can do. *They must be told otherwise they will assume all is fine, why should they think otherwise if you have not told them?*
They employ your licence, your time and your professional opinion and expect it all for a handsome reward. *If you drive off the taxiway or worse they will look to you for an answer and will absolve themselves of blame. *
From the outside looking in I see them providing good aircraft, good salaries and plenty of experience, ie a professionally run company who provide all the tools to do the job, if you are not up to the job and are too weak to step up and be a professional then I hope to goodness I never end up as a sorry passenger on your flight!! Get a life and enjoy it, stop looking to blame everyone else for your obvious misgivings and serious professional short comings. *You say that you will work an average of 9 block hours per day over five days. At 106 euro per scheduled block hour (the last I think I saw being advertised recently) this works out at 4770 euro earned over five days!!! And you are complaining like a spoilt child! Most people have to work a lot harder than you for far less money.
I truly hope that you don't try and get a job in corporate, you'd try ruining my terms and conditions too and you wouldn't manage the first day! Far too much flexibility required here! I love my job and I love hearing how miserable you career wreckers are in yours. The more of you fools there are the better my conditions are, and the best bit....when you get tired of it you head off to the desert and further improve my T&C's due lack of pilots at home. *I do pity the sandpit dwellers but then I guess you are all made for each other, just remember that there are also other nationals out there who have written the book on how to whinge, ever heard the phrase "it's not like this in A...." you'll also have plenty of expats who are poacher turned game keeper and love hating you... Check out 12 hours in the bunk that doesn't count towards duty!! You'll love that one.
From your own description and those of many other so called professionals on this forum I laugh at you and I am disgusted at your conduct. *You have offered yourselves for a beating and you completely deserve it. *Your career will never improve because you are a door mat for others to wipe their feet on, don't bother getting up, you lost the moment you asked to be walked over. *If I ever see you in uniform and smell alcohol on your breath (sounds like the security guards who badgered you had good reason, you must've looked rough) then I will report you to the authorities, your passengers deserve better.
You have a career that most mere mortals can only aspire to, in the same way that most people at some point in their lives dream of dating a supermodel (male or female) you have paid for it, jumped the queue and continue to pay to date whilst telling everyone else who are either less fortunate or more sensible than you that *the experience isn't that good after all and even though you are staying put you do so under protest!!*
Good luck*
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Hmm. About that brain surgeon...
Actually, Mr T/ Encorebaby, while you are having your attitude adjusted, is it alright if we fools, gullible lemmings, get-a-lifers, queue jumpers and so-called professionals come round and gently remove the * from your keyboard, as it disrupts the otherwise pleasant flow of your rant. Sorry, narrative.
Still, I liked the bit about determining usability of aerodromes. That's sound advice. we're much too busy propping the bar up to read all that part A nonsense.
Nice.
Actually, Mr T/ Encorebaby, while you are having your attitude adjusted, is it alright if we fools, gullible lemmings, get-a-lifers, queue jumpers and so-called professionals come round and gently remove the * from your keyboard, as it disrupts the otherwise pleasant flow of your rant. Sorry, narrative.
Still, I liked the bit about determining usability of aerodromes. That's sound advice. we're much too busy propping the bar up to read all that part A nonsense.
Nice.
Last edited by 16024; 17th Dec 2012 at 16:48.
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Ah bless the poor little lamb, guess you could always give up your stressful 100k per annum career and go get a job in a supermarkt for instance, for minimum pay. Try visiting the real world on planet earth every so often, its a scary place but you'll get used to it.
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Funny he doesn't mention that he CHOSE to be a floater,for an extra 20 an hour.i believe you have to apply for a floating position? Why not just stick with a base,sack of the extra 20 an hour,stay at home and be slightly less stressed.
Also, agree with someone who posted previous...... "Checked the weather the night before...wasn't looking great.....had a few beers.....and then only tried to arrive at the crewroom (having never been there before) at the minimum -45 minutes....."
This guy obviously isn't all there....
Also, agree with someone who posted previous...... "Checked the weather the night before...wasn't looking great.....had a few beers.....and then only tried to arrive at the crewroom (having never been there before) at the minimum -45 minutes....."
This guy obviously isn't all there....
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Missed your point there Andy.
So people should/ should not consider the job.
And if they land the job they should make the best of it/ join the race to the bottom.
If you're going to post here, try to say something.
So people should/ should not consider the job.
And if they land the job they should make the best of it/ join the race to the bottom.
If you're going to post here, try to say something.
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lgw warrior,
The way I heard it, even "Based Contractors" do a fair bit of "floating", as the rules governing same are in fact merely "guidelines".
Even more stressful for them, as they (possibly) don't know their way around the 50+ crewrooms etc quite as well as the real Gypos.
But well, it all sounds like a lovely little adventure to some of you evidently.
Me, I suspect I may be getting too old for all that tosh, but I would personally categorise it as a "right pain in the hole".
The way I heard it, even "Based Contractors" do a fair bit of "floating", as the rules governing same are in fact merely "guidelines".
Even more stressful for them, as they (possibly) don't know their way around the 50+ crewrooms etc quite as well as the real Gypos.
But well, it all sounds like a lovely little adventure to some of you evidently.
Me, I suspect I may be getting too old for all that tosh, but I would personally categorise it as a "right pain in the hole".
Last edited by captplaystation; 18th Dec 2012 at 18:55.
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I'm almost tempted to write a counter narrative, of how I was given three days notice I was going to NYO for a week.
I spent an hour of my time, sans beer, reading up on NYO procedures and base information before jumpseating across, settling into a very reasonable hotel (which I sourced) and thoroughly enjoying the fact I worked with a bunch of professional aviators in a different country and with different operational challenges. All this on 5/4 rather than 5/5 which our captain enjoyed.
At no point did I think it a good idea to write a 5 page rant on how I hated my job, yet didn't attempt to help myself at any stage of the process. Turning up at -45 in a new base of operations is simply asking for trouble, as is publishing on the internet the fact you were propping up the bar less than 12 hours before your flight. I GUARANTEE this narrative is not one week, more a compilation of the authors gripes over time.
Week in week out of course the job is stressful, but as much as O'Leary would like to be in control of everything, weather/baggage/slot/tech delays are simply a part of the day to day we are paid to manage. Just delay the flight, use the code and then if asked for explanation you give it!
I spent an hour of my time, sans beer, reading up on NYO procedures and base information before jumpseating across, settling into a very reasonable hotel (which I sourced) and thoroughly enjoying the fact I worked with a bunch of professional aviators in a different country and with different operational challenges. All this on 5/4 rather than 5/5 which our captain enjoyed.
At no point did I think it a good idea to write a 5 page rant on how I hated my job, yet didn't attempt to help myself at any stage of the process. Turning up at -45 in a new base of operations is simply asking for trouble, as is publishing on the internet the fact you were propping up the bar less than 12 hours before your flight. I GUARANTEE this narrative is not one week, more a compilation of the authors gripes over time.
Week in week out of course the job is stressful, but as much as O'Leary would like to be in control of everything, weather/baggage/slot/tech delays are simply a part of the day to day we are paid to manage. Just delay the flight, use the code and then if asked for explanation you give it!
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I GUARANTEE this narrative is not one week, more a compilation of the authors gripes over time.
As for Encorebaby: Oh dear, oh dear. I hope you were drunk when you wrote that drivel.
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Have to congratulate encorebaby for managing to be both extremely smug as well as rubbishing a part of the industry about which he clearly knows nothing. Not bad for a rich man's bag carrier.
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2. Many posters have been shocked by the regular comment about the "beer". I believe most professional pilots are well aware of the regulations and know their personal limits in terms of alcohol consumption. It says nowhere in the article that there was not 12 hours between the last drink and report time the next morning. The only time reference given is to daylight. In winter, some bases up North have a sunset at 15:30 or earlier and the poster could very well have had a couple of beers before the 12 hours limit.
Also, I think that there is a lot of hypocrisy in the repeated attacks above.
Who can swear they never had two beers (no mention of more in the article) the day before operating a duty? (assuming 12 hours or more in between)?
3. As far as report time -45 is concerned. No matter what is being said above, the OPS manual clearly indicates a report time at departure -45 minutes. Not more. It is then up to everyone to decide if they need more time to get fully ready for the flight, taking into consideration that this time will not be accounted for in the flight duty period calculations. Is it then safer to show up earlier? I personally don't want my crew to arrive earlier than report time (some FO's arrive in the crew room up to 2 hours before the flight). As after a 13 hour day, this would actually end up to be a 15 hour day. How fresh will the crew be then?
Last, the poster could have been delayed for an unknown reason (he mentioned security queues?). Also when you operate out of base, you are very much depending on public transportation or taxis.
Now, what I would like to hear are comments from the real pilot(s) concerned. Those ones who are sent out of base regularly or floating, the ones who are in a real low cost company such as Ryanair or Easyjet or others and see what they have to say. Unlike some corporate pilots or immature wannabes who obviously have no idea about the situation in the real world.
After a long stressful day and an early wakeup calling, a lot of real pilots, corporate and airline would have sleep on their mind as a primary desire. Especially if you decided to not just mindlessly follow what the rules allow(45minute check-in) but do what is professional at a new, unfamiliar location. That is....realize that there is a likelyhood of things going slower than normal and therefore make an effort to show up early. The very intricately detailed report makes no mention of early morning delays.
Being a "real or mature" pilot involves a lot more than making excuses. It involves dealing with reality.
- Late arrival and early wake up.....Priority is food, non-dehydrating fluids such as water and sleep. Not beer which may somehow relieve some people's stress unless they have a problem.
- Unfamiliar location with very short check-in times allowed.....Get there early on the first day. An extra 15-30 minutes can make a huge difference.
- Feel sick on the aircraft prior to pushback....call in sick. As a pax, I'll take the three minute extra delay if a pilot needs to use the facilities.
Of course, I can't comment on whether an earlier commuting flight was available or airport charts for the new locations were reviewed in advance.
Last edited by punkalouver; 25th Dec 2012 at 03:34.
PPRuNe Handmaiden
An extra 15-30 minutes can make a huge difference.
However, if the pilot has been rostered for a duty at a base he/she's not familiar with, surely the roster should be adjusted for that extra duty time?