The irreconcilable position of Need but don't want foreign Pilots in China
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The irreconcilable position of Need but don't want foreign Pilots in China
With such a rapidly expanding airline industry in China, China desperately needs experienced foreign Captains, probably for the next 15 years, BUT the Chinese do not want Foreign Pilots.
Anybody considering applying for a job opportunity in China must understand that to achieve that job you must overcome every possible obstacle that can be thrown into your path, from the beginning of your selection to the end of your training and then beyond as the medical requirements only get more and more stringent.
If you can just consider your selection trip to China as a paid holiday with an extensive medical then you are going into it with the correct mentality. Recent figures, as I understand are as follows:
1. 20 American airlines Captains on Furlough went to China for Selection, all were failed on the medical. You now have to face not only stringent blood pressure, but if you have any sediment at all in your carotid artery you will fail, you will also now do an MRI- if they find any single blood vessel broken again you will fail.
2. 14 experienced Korean Airlines Captains went for selection on the 777, of those 14 only 1 passed the simulator check, and believe me little has to do with ability, they can give you what they want and the checker will decide on the criteria for passing, and it will probably be entirely a non standard standard, if that makes sense.
3. Having been selected you can expect a long training process with about a 50% chance of success.
As you can see the end result is that if you are a healthy experienced Captain, with nothing on your record against you, you have about a 1% chance of making it.
Maybe things will change but currently this irreconcilable position which the Chinese have make it a very, very difficult process for Foreign guys.
Anybody considering applying for a job opportunity in China must understand that to achieve that job you must overcome every possible obstacle that can be thrown into your path, from the beginning of your selection to the end of your training and then beyond as the medical requirements only get more and more stringent.
If you can just consider your selection trip to China as a paid holiday with an extensive medical then you are going into it with the correct mentality. Recent figures, as I understand are as follows:
1. 20 American airlines Captains on Furlough went to China for Selection, all were failed on the medical. You now have to face not only stringent blood pressure, but if you have any sediment at all in your carotid artery you will fail, you will also now do an MRI- if they find any single blood vessel broken again you will fail.
2. 14 experienced Korean Airlines Captains went for selection on the 777, of those 14 only 1 passed the simulator check, and believe me little has to do with ability, they can give you what they want and the checker will decide on the criteria for passing, and it will probably be entirely a non standard standard, if that makes sense.
3. Having been selected you can expect a long training process with about a 50% chance of success.
As you can see the end result is that if you are a healthy experienced Captain, with nothing on your record against you, you have about a 1% chance of making it.
Maybe things will change but currently this irreconcilable position which the Chinese have make it a very, very difficult process for Foreign guys.
Last edited by polax52; 17th Nov 2012 at 03:12.
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If you're under 40 the medical is ok, I havn't had any problem, but as soon as you hit 40 it seems to get much tougher, we have just lost 3 fit and healthy over 40 Captains to the medical system.
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There are (Guys over 50) of course, but the medical is very difficult to pass and it is at risk every 6 months. It's not the straight forward medical you find in the rest of the world.
Haha - well - I know some guys in there 30's and they are less fit then some of us !!!! Just a bit worried about eye sight and hearing. Those are the only things one can't do anything about .
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Sorry volare_737, I am not saying anything about the fitness or non fitness of anybody whatever age they are. All I am saying is that the additional checks that the Chinese now require when you are over 40, make it an even more difficult medical to pass than it has been previously. These additional checks have caused some of the guys who I know, that are over 40, to be denied a medical certificate.
To add weight to the original posting- 10% of our foreign pilot group (over 40's) have been terminated due to the additional age related medical testing required over the last few months. All currently hold western class 1 medicals. It appears the additional testing requirements didn't come with instructions on how to interpret the results.
The 777 applicants are not wanted by line management of the fleet but are being forced by senior management. Regardless of skills or medical suitability, they were never going to be successful at screening.
Anyone considering Prc contracts should consider it to be a 6 month posting with the possibility of extensions even having passed initial testing.
The 777 applicants are not wanted by line management of the fleet but are being forced by senior management. Regardless of skills or medical suitability, they were never going to be successful at screening.
Anyone considering Prc contracts should consider it to be a 6 month posting with the possibility of extensions even having passed initial testing.
Last edited by Karunch; 26th Nov 2012 at 21:18.
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Medical is just a suitable excuse when they do not want you. They have very unexperienced FOs, but strict medical check does not mean anything - anyone can collaps suddenly due to hundreds possible reasons.
Did they paid you for flight tickets and accomodation at last?
Did they paid you for flight tickets and accomodation at last?
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Ridiculous, they are just this...
Just look at their mind, limiting personal freedom and hiding the truth out of the press, internet etc. Just look at the Tibet situation.
I will never apply to them, I believe I'm, at least, one step over them. Hard speaking, I know, but that's my mind (still and never their).
Just look at their mind, limiting personal freedom and hiding the truth out of the press, internet etc. Just look at the Tibet situation.
I will never apply to them, I believe I'm, at least, one step over them. Hard speaking, I know, but that's my mind (still and never their).
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Just to add further to the current state of the medical, a former colleague of mine, was told after completing the additional CAAC tests that he required 10 days of hospitalisation for further testing. After a degrading 10 days in hospital he is still denied a medical and is awaiting instructions from the CAAC, but it does looks like the end of his China experience.
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If you are a bit "chubby" or have hearing problems even accepted as a functional hearing test in Europe, or you had eye surgery, kidney stones, dodgy prostrate levels, smoke too much, high BP, heart rhythm problems, or urine like creosote then forget China. As previously stated, some guys that hold current Class 1s in Europe get binned at screening, the old "letter from my GP" stuff won't wash there, not saying you have to be an athlete but reasonable fitness is a must..
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Here is what you can expect
2 days every 6 months you will be rostered with Medical Check.
They do not consider your actual ability to fly for the next 6 months or 1 year.
They calculate the risk you can have a medical problem in the next 20 years.
It means that if you have ANY of the cardiovascular riskes, your are grounded.
Example:
1) Blood pressure higher number 140 means 24 hrs "holter check", if 1 value above 140, you stay there 2 weeks with 2 pressure checks a day.
For the lower number above 88, it's a problem too.
One a day check, at least 3 persons will check your pressure...
You have to know that with jetlag and domestic the day before, you will probably feel like a sh... the day of the check and with the stress that "you have to have the good value", you will explode your value.
To be "in the right numbers" at the check, you will need to have something like 110/70 in your room before the check. of course you will think to take a pill just before but for the stress test, you have to run and they stop the machine when you rate is 145...If beta bloquant is blocking your rate at 143, you will run 30 minutes with a rising slope ...which can make you fall...
2) GPT: I don't know the value any more but only for this number there is permanently 1 guy in 'leave without pay"
3)LDL below 116,HLDL between 40 and 55...good luck
4) Blood in the pee, no discussion
5) MRA: a particularity is seen as an abnormality
6) MRI: Any discovery will lead you to downtown (probably rushing in traffic jam) to do a memory test in chinese of course .
3 guys lost their licence because of that recently and contract was stopped with immediate effect.
Welcome
They do not consider your actual ability to fly for the next 6 months or 1 year.
They calculate the risk you can have a medical problem in the next 20 years.
It means that if you have ANY of the cardiovascular riskes, your are grounded.
Example:
1) Blood pressure higher number 140 means 24 hrs "holter check", if 1 value above 140, you stay there 2 weeks with 2 pressure checks a day.
For the lower number above 88, it's a problem too.
One a day check, at least 3 persons will check your pressure...
You have to know that with jetlag and domestic the day before, you will probably feel like a sh... the day of the check and with the stress that "you have to have the good value", you will explode your value.
To be "in the right numbers" at the check, you will need to have something like 110/70 in your room before the check. of course you will think to take a pill just before but for the stress test, you have to run and they stop the machine when you rate is 145...If beta bloquant is blocking your rate at 143, you will run 30 minutes with a rising slope ...which can make you fall...
2) GPT: I don't know the value any more but only for this number there is permanently 1 guy in 'leave without pay"
3)LDL below 116,HLDL between 40 and 55...good luck
4) Blood in the pee, no discussion
5) MRA: a particularity is seen as an abnormality
6) MRI: Any discovery will lead you to downtown (probably rushing in traffic jam) to do a memory test in chinese of course .
3 guys lost their licence because of that recently and contract was stopped with immediate effect.
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That is a mad world indeed - a fascinating thread. It all has a slight air of the Madhatter's Tea Party about it, but there you have it. One of our pilots just left to go there and along with 74 of the 75 pilots they looked at did not get taken on. They found a 'heart problem' after he had been given the job and resigned from us and last heard of was unemployed. A terrible business and a total mess.
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Medical test
I did the initial medical in shanghai 3 months ago and i pass it., once in my home country waiting for my ticket back to china i heard about the new issues of the medical test., So, I went to the doctor and he made me an echocardiogram and result for this test is:
small left ventricular hypertrophy
Please, i need to know if i can fly in china with this problem.
Regards
small left ventricular hypertrophy
Please, i need to know if i can fly in china with this problem.
Regards
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O.G. It will depend on the individual doctor, this is really the problem with the Chinese medical,the standard is still yet to be established.
Unfortunately this allows for the abuse of the system against foreign pilots.
Unfortunately this allows for the abuse of the system against foreign pilots.
Last edited by kungfu panda; 12th Dec 2012 at 19:46.
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Chinese long-haul airlines in the next 10 years.
What are the long-term inferences, assuming most candidates are rejected? Is there an experience shortfall in the left-seat coming up soon?
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This is the corollary referred to in the title of this thread - the Chinese urgently need hundreds of Airbus Captains, but are doing everything in their power to prevent them working there. Make of it what you will, but it is essentially the unstoppable force against the immovable object - barking mad, in other words. If you have any other option, take it - the whole Chinese adventure is just too risky for anything more than a 6-month contract. Never say you were not warned.
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Thats exactly it......China is only a 12 month contract if you are under 40 years old, and only a 6 month contract if you are over 40.
To quit a permanent job is EXTREMELY risky, and to move your family over here is MADNESS.
To quit a permanent job is EXTREMELY risky, and to move your family over here is MADNESS.