Boeing Sends ‘Contract Pilots’ to Qatar and LAN
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Boeing Sends ‘Contract Pilots’ to Qatar and LAN
Looks like Boeing will be using Qatar and LAN as the guinea pigs for the "temporary pilot" experiment:
SOURCE: Boeing Sends
Boeing Sends ‘Contract Pilots’ to Qatar and LAN as 787 Outsourcing Takes New Turn
SEATTLE--(BUSINESS WIRE)--
The saga of 787 outsourcing at The Boeing Company turned a new chapter today as the aerospace giant moved forward with plans to send non-Boeing temporary pilots to provide flight crew training. For more than 50 years, Boeing flight crew training has only been provided by full-time, experienced Boeing pilots.
According to an internal Boeing announcement, flight crews at Qatar Airways and LAN Airlines are scheduled to be the first Boeing customers to receive flight crew training from temporary, contract pilots. The temporary pilots have little of the advanced training required to become, and maintain qualification as, a full-time Boeing pilot, according to the Society of Professional Engineering Employees in Aerospace (SPEEA), IFPTE Local 2001, which represents the full-time pilots who belong to the Airplane Manufacturing Pilots Association (AMPA). In some cases, the temp pilots have less than one hour at the controls of the 787, according to the union.
“This means these ‘instructor pilots’ are ‘training’ Qatar and LAN pilots who have orders of magnitude more actual flight time and experience in the 787 than they do,” said Ray Goforth, executive director of SPEEA. “Full-time Boeing instructor pilots are available to support Qatar and LAN, but Boeing is choosing to risk its reputation and stick these customers with minimally qualified contract pilots in order to save a few nickels.”
In August, AMPA pilots unanimously voted ‘No Confidence’ in management at Boeing Training & Flight Services in an effort to raise attention and alert airplane customers to the scheme to substitute temp pilots for the genuine Boeing pilots customers paid for.
Launch customer All Nippon Airways (ANA), along with Japan Airlines, Ethiopian Airlines, and Air India have, thus far, received flight training from full-time Boeing pilots.
“The humiliation for LAN and Qatar in having these temp pilots pawned off on them is startling,” said Goforth. “Did Boeing even tell these customers that they’re not worth being served by genuine Boeing training pilots?”
Unlike Boeing instructor pilots, the contract pilots did not participate in the flight test and certification program of the 787, according to SPEEA.
Pilot training for airline customers is part of the complete line assist and flight training package Boeing includes with the purchase of a new commercial airplane.
“When Boeing customers buy a 787, they expect experienced flight and training instructors,” said Goforth. “They don’t expect Boeing to give them a temp flight instructor who has little, if any, actual experience flying the aircraft they are training others to fly.”
A local of the International Federation of Professional and Technical Engineers (IFPTE), SPEEA represents 26,560 aerospace professionals at Boeing, Spirit AeroSystems in Kansas, and Triumph Composite Systems, Inc., in Spokane, Wash.
SOURCE: Boeing Sends
Boeing Sends ‘Contract Pilots’ to Qatar and LAN as 787 Outsourcing Takes New Turn
SEATTLE--(BUSINESS WIRE)--
The saga of 787 outsourcing at The Boeing Company turned a new chapter today as the aerospace giant moved forward with plans to send non-Boeing temporary pilots to provide flight crew training. For more than 50 years, Boeing flight crew training has only been provided by full-time, experienced Boeing pilots.
According to an internal Boeing announcement, flight crews at Qatar Airways and LAN Airlines are scheduled to be the first Boeing customers to receive flight crew training from temporary, contract pilots. The temporary pilots have little of the advanced training required to become, and maintain qualification as, a full-time Boeing pilot, according to the Society of Professional Engineering Employees in Aerospace (SPEEA), IFPTE Local 2001, which represents the full-time pilots who belong to the Airplane Manufacturing Pilots Association (AMPA). In some cases, the temp pilots have less than one hour at the controls of the 787, according to the union.
“This means these ‘instructor pilots’ are ‘training’ Qatar and LAN pilots who have orders of magnitude more actual flight time and experience in the 787 than they do,” said Ray Goforth, executive director of SPEEA. “Full-time Boeing instructor pilots are available to support Qatar and LAN, but Boeing is choosing to risk its reputation and stick these customers with minimally qualified contract pilots in order to save a few nickels.”
In August, AMPA pilots unanimously voted ‘No Confidence’ in management at Boeing Training & Flight Services in an effort to raise attention and alert airplane customers to the scheme to substitute temp pilots for the genuine Boeing pilots customers paid for.
Launch customer All Nippon Airways (ANA), along with Japan Airlines, Ethiopian Airlines, and Air India have, thus far, received flight training from full-time Boeing pilots.
“The humiliation for LAN and Qatar in having these temp pilots pawned off on them is startling,” said Goforth. “Did Boeing even tell these customers that they’re not worth being served by genuine Boeing training pilots?”
Unlike Boeing instructor pilots, the contract pilots did not participate in the flight test and certification program of the 787, according to SPEEA.
Pilot training for airline customers is part of the complete line assist and flight training package Boeing includes with the purchase of a new commercial airplane.
“When Boeing customers buy a 787, they expect experienced flight and training instructors,” said Goforth. “They don’t expect Boeing to give them a temp flight instructor who has little, if any, actual experience flying the aircraft they are training others to fly.”
A local of the International Federation of Professional and Technical Engineers (IFPTE), SPEEA represents 26,560 aerospace professionals at Boeing, Spirit AeroSystems in Kansas, and Triumph Composite Systems, Inc., in Spokane, Wash.
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Is it necessary to be as dumb as a bag of hammers to be union rep or does the the brain damage occur incrementally?
Just where does this genius propose that Boeing should find experienced 787 pilots? From the future? That would be strange as all unions only look backwards.
Just where does this genius propose that Boeing should find experienced 787 pilots? From the future? That would be strange as all unions only look backwards.
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“They don’t expect Boeing to give them a temp flight instructor who has little, if any, actual experience flying the aircraft they are training others to fly.”
I guess that the difference was that they were union members.
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So I guess Mr. Goforth is related to Charlie Bryan and Robert Poli (PATCP)...?
I'm sure if Boeing pilots were available, they would have the jobs...so do you propose the customer (Quatar, for example) just wait until the guy with 200 hrs comes to them? Boeing wouldn't be able to sell any airplanes if that were to be the case...
I have one thing to say......Twinkies and Cupcakes...
Go drink the Kool-Aid...
I'm sure if Boeing pilots were available, they would have the jobs...so do you propose the customer (Quatar, for example) just wait until the guy with 200 hrs comes to them? Boeing wouldn't be able to sell any airplanes if that were to be the case...
I have one thing to say......Twinkies and Cupcakes...
Go drink the Kool-Aid...
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Yawn!!!! This purely a union fuss. Boeing has hundreds of contract trainers, some with thousands of hours on the a/c they teach on. Nobody has much time on the 787.
Last edited by 5LY; 18th Nov 2012 at 13:53.
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“This means these ‘instructor pilots’ are ‘training’ Qatar and LAN pilots who have orders of magnitude more actual flight time and experience in the 787 than they do,”
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I happen to know a bit more about this now, and will share what I’ve learned.
The Airline Manufacturing Pilots (AMPA) are represented by SPEEA, the engineering union within Boeing. Ray Goforth is the SPEEA President, and the above press release is from him (or the communications department).
The AMPA (full time Boeing) pilots actually do have “magnitudes” more 787 experience than the contractor pilots. The AMPA pilots have been flying the airplane, supporting the Boeing Test team throughout all phases of the three year experimental test program. To date they have delivered nearly all of the 787’s to customers worldwide, and have provided line or base training to ANA, JAL, Air India, Ethiopian, LAN, United, and Qatar. Aside from the Boeing Engineering Test and Production Pilots, the AMPA pilots have by far the most experience flying the 787 in the world. In addition, they have nearly 5 years of simulator experience in the 787, instructing students and regulatory agencies, and validating the simulator software loads worldwide. The AMPA pilots know this airplane inside and out. In addition to the 787, the AMPA pilots instruct in all other Boeing models.
Conversely, there is very little known about the contract pilots Boeing has hired. Their backgrounds and training are a mystery, and the company that pays them is based somewhere in the UK. Certainly they must all have excellent aviation backgrounds, but the fact remains no one really knows. The majority of them have been on the contract payroll for nearly two years now, and to date, have not participated in a single event other than maintaining their own recurrent. They have not flown a single line assist, or participated in a single revenue earning flight. The only actual airplane experience they have had in the last two years was a one-day airplane ride in a 787 where they each demonstrated 3 touch and go landings under the supervision of AMPA pilots. The flying they do with Qatar and LAN will be the very first time they have flown (not including their 3 touch and go landings) since the inception of their group two years ago, and their first time ever instructing on the 787 airplane or simulator.
The part that is frustrating to the AMPA pilots is that they are readily available during the timeframe Boeing has decided to use the contract pilots. I sense that the feeling they are getting is that they have a contract with the Boeing Company, and AMPA has been the exclusive provider of Boeing Company airplane training since 1958. It appears to them that the company is attempting to circumvent their contract in order to outsource the job overseas. There are serious concerns that the contract pilot group, although highly experienced, will not operate under the same level of standardization that Boeing customers have come to expect.
I know that it is in style to bash unions these days, but if my airlines management decided to hire an entirely new group of pilots, outside of the collective bargaining unit, with less than 1 hour of flight time on the airplane, I would be concerned not only for myself, but for the customer.
The Airline Manufacturing Pilots (AMPA) are represented by SPEEA, the engineering union within Boeing. Ray Goforth is the SPEEA President, and the above press release is from him (or the communications department).
The AMPA (full time Boeing) pilots actually do have “magnitudes” more 787 experience than the contractor pilots. The AMPA pilots have been flying the airplane, supporting the Boeing Test team throughout all phases of the three year experimental test program. To date they have delivered nearly all of the 787’s to customers worldwide, and have provided line or base training to ANA, JAL, Air India, Ethiopian, LAN, United, and Qatar. Aside from the Boeing Engineering Test and Production Pilots, the AMPA pilots have by far the most experience flying the 787 in the world. In addition, they have nearly 5 years of simulator experience in the 787, instructing students and regulatory agencies, and validating the simulator software loads worldwide. The AMPA pilots know this airplane inside and out. In addition to the 787, the AMPA pilots instruct in all other Boeing models.
Conversely, there is very little known about the contract pilots Boeing has hired. Their backgrounds and training are a mystery, and the company that pays them is based somewhere in the UK. Certainly they must all have excellent aviation backgrounds, but the fact remains no one really knows. The majority of them have been on the contract payroll for nearly two years now, and to date, have not participated in a single event other than maintaining their own recurrent. They have not flown a single line assist, or participated in a single revenue earning flight. The only actual airplane experience they have had in the last two years was a one-day airplane ride in a 787 where they each demonstrated 3 touch and go landings under the supervision of AMPA pilots. The flying they do with Qatar and LAN will be the very first time they have flown (not including their 3 touch and go landings) since the inception of their group two years ago, and their first time ever instructing on the 787 airplane or simulator.
The part that is frustrating to the AMPA pilots is that they are readily available during the timeframe Boeing has decided to use the contract pilots. I sense that the feeling they are getting is that they have a contract with the Boeing Company, and AMPA has been the exclusive provider of Boeing Company airplane training since 1958. It appears to them that the company is attempting to circumvent their contract in order to outsource the job overseas. There are serious concerns that the contract pilot group, although highly experienced, will not operate under the same level of standardization that Boeing customers have come to expect.
I know that it is in style to bash unions these days, but if my airlines management decided to hire an entirely new group of pilots, outside of the collective bargaining unit, with less than 1 hour of flight time on the airplane, I would be concerned not only for myself, but for the customer.
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Anyone know more about this now? How did Qatar, LOT and LAN take to the new instructor pilots? Presumably they would have an opinion on whether or not they are up to snuff? Is 1 hour's flight time what these guys actually had?
Well, judging by the numerous 787 smoking holes in the ground piloted by these "non-union" trained pilots I'd hazard a guess that they are doing alright.
Is the 787 training an add-on to the 777?, so probably these pilots didn't just jump in at the deep end.
Is the 787 training an add-on to the 777?, so probably these pilots didn't just jump in at the deep end.
Unlike previous leaders of SPEEA, Goforth isn't an engineer - he's a lawyer.
Remember how you can tell if a lawyer is lying?
As an unfortunate member of SPEEA, I take pretty much anything Goforth says with a grain of salt - as the saying goes, consider the source
Remember how you can tell if a lawyer is lying?
As an unfortunate member of SPEEA, I take pretty much anything Goforth says with a grain of salt - as the saying goes, consider the source
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Did 4 weeks of training for B737-800 in Seattle about 14-15 years ago.
Our instructor was ex USAF F4s and C130s.
He had never flown a 737 or any commercial aircraft. Retired straight to Boeing after retirement from USAF.
He did all our full and fixed base sim for the 800.
Our instructor was ex USAF F4s and C130s.
He had never flown a 737 or any commercial aircraft. Retired straight to Boeing after retirement from USAF.
He did all our full and fixed base sim for the 800.
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Likewise, Alteon Boeing had guys who had never flown B777 before teaching and pontificating about flying the T7 their way! And so pompous too they thought that the T7 is just a blown up 757!
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From what I understand these pilots will be instructing on the line without having wide body/long haul experience.
This is not a sim job but a flying one.
This is not a sim job but a flying one.
Last edited by topaky; 26th Oct 2013 at 08:35.
