Italian authorities closing down on Ryanair's contract scam
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How many of BGY RYR pilots & cabin crew are RYR employees and how many BRK and the cabin crew agency? Surely, only RYR employees can be said to be on Irish contracts? All others are employees of the various agencies, which i believe are UK based. Could be interesting times.
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RAT 5
I don't know the figures but I had a few base rosters in my hands recently and I can tell you that the vast majority and I mean 80+% of Pilots and Cabin crew are "agency" workers.
I don't know the figures but I had a few base rosters in my hands recently and I can tell you that the vast majority and I mean 80+% of Pilots and Cabin crew are "agency" workers.
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Just received from my Italian source
Corriere della Sera - BERGAMO
section: Report date: 19/10/2012 - page: 4
The government blinda Ryanair
Tax, the company will pay as an Italian
The government "wraps" the giant low cost. Decree-Law 'Growth 2.0 ", which is being published in the Official Gazette, puts an end to casual maneuvers contribution of volcanic CEO Michael O'Leary. Ryanair is considered, to all intents and purposes, an Italian company. With all that this implies for taxes, contributions and health care. Not only that the law is retroactive from January 1, 2012. And it is a retrospective non-appealable. Thus ends the era of "unfair competition", as it was stamped several times by other airlines operating on the national territory and that, despite having a license issued by another Member State of the EU, pouring taxes and contributions in accordance with Italian regulations ( such as Air France or Lufthansa). So far Ryanair had always paid according to the contribution regime in Ireland where the average tax on wages is 12 percent (compared to the Italian average of 37). On Wednesday, the giant of the skies, with a note from Dublin, had said that for new hires in the Italian bases would have paid social security contributions subjection to the law of Italy. A "surrender" through gritted teeth, heavily conditioned by a circular INPS which included a provision of Community law entered into force in June. The article stated once and for all the notion of "basic service" as the place where the crew member designated by the operator begins and ends the day's work. Now the government wants to harness once and for all the Irish giant of the skies. Paragraph 1 of Article 38 of Decree-Law "Growth" Ryanair states that not only will have to pay the contributions, but must submit in all respects to our taxation as other Italian companies that produce income in the beautiful country. It is the gravestone to "distinguish" the lawyers of Mr. O'Leary, who have always objected to the fact that the company is Irish and employees, employed on contract in Dublin, Ireland operate on vectors. Here is the text of the decree of the government, as of October 15, the Courier is able to anticipate: "For the purposes of aviation law, the term" base "refers to a set of premises and infrastructure from which a company carries out a stable, regular and continuous activity of air transport, using employees who have their basis in the place of work, in the sense that work there, you take the service and return there after the conduct of its business. An air carrier with a valid operating license issued by a Member State of the European Union other than Italy is considered to be established on the national territory when exercising on a regular basis or continuous or regular activity of air from a base as defined the previous period. Notwithstanding Article 3 of the Law of 27 July 2000, n. 212, this paragraph shall apply as from the tax period in progress at December 31, 2012. " And the tax year 2012 begins on January 1, counting, waterfall, all the skills, not only the contributions. Meanwhile, the INPS does not give up on the previous. After the findings of the Provincial Directorate of Labour of Bergamo, the security agency has notified an order to pay almost € 12 million to Michael O'Leary and his right arm, Juliusz Komorek, Director of Legal Affairs for grants not paid to 220 employees moved from Orio al Serio between 2006 and 2010. A charge that has cost O'Leary and Komorek registration under investigation by the prosecutor Maria Mocciaro, but they strongly contest. Riccardo Nisoli PLAY PRIVATE
section: Report date: 19/10/2012 - page: 4
The government blinda Ryanair
Tax, the company will pay as an Italian
The government "wraps" the giant low cost. Decree-Law 'Growth 2.0 ", which is being published in the Official Gazette, puts an end to casual maneuvers contribution of volcanic CEO Michael O'Leary. Ryanair is considered, to all intents and purposes, an Italian company. With all that this implies for taxes, contributions and health care. Not only that the law is retroactive from January 1, 2012. And it is a retrospective non-appealable. Thus ends the era of "unfair competition", as it was stamped several times by other airlines operating on the national territory and that, despite having a license issued by another Member State of the EU, pouring taxes and contributions in accordance with Italian regulations ( such as Air France or Lufthansa). So far Ryanair had always paid according to the contribution regime in Ireland where the average tax on wages is 12 percent (compared to the Italian average of 37). On Wednesday, the giant of the skies, with a note from Dublin, had said that for new hires in the Italian bases would have paid social security contributions subjection to the law of Italy. A "surrender" through gritted teeth, heavily conditioned by a circular INPS which included a provision of Community law entered into force in June. The article stated once and for all the notion of "basic service" as the place where the crew member designated by the operator begins and ends the day's work. Now the government wants to harness once and for all the Irish giant of the skies. Paragraph 1 of Article 38 of Decree-Law "Growth" Ryanair states that not only will have to pay the contributions, but must submit in all respects to our taxation as other Italian companies that produce income in the beautiful country. It is the gravestone to "distinguish" the lawyers of Mr. O'Leary, who have always objected to the fact that the company is Irish and employees, employed on contract in Dublin, Ireland operate on vectors. Here is the text of the decree of the government, as of October 15, the Courier is able to anticipate: "For the purposes of aviation law, the term" base "refers to a set of premises and infrastructure from which a company carries out a stable, regular and continuous activity of air transport, using employees who have their basis in the place of work, in the sense that work there, you take the service and return there after the conduct of its business. An air carrier with a valid operating license issued by a Member State of the European Union other than Italy is considered to be established on the national territory when exercising on a regular basis or continuous or regular activity of air from a base as defined the previous period. Notwithstanding Article 3 of the Law of 27 July 2000, n. 212, this paragraph shall apply as from the tax period in progress at December 31, 2012. " And the tax year 2012 begins on January 1, counting, waterfall, all the skills, not only the contributions. Meanwhile, the INPS does not give up on the previous. After the findings of the Provincial Directorate of Labour of Bergamo, the security agency has notified an order to pay almost € 12 million to Michael O'Leary and his right arm, Juliusz Komorek, Director of Legal Affairs for grants not paid to 220 employees moved from Orio al Serio between 2006 and 2010. A charge that has cost O'Leary and Komorek registration under investigation by the prosecutor Maria Mocciaro, but they strongly contest. Riccardo Nisoli PLAY PRIVATE
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Sounds like a conclusive victory for the Italians. To be fair must long timers in FR Italia left over the last 2 years, when the noises from the taxman got louder.
I feel sorry for the folk who got based down there against their preferences. Hopefully they will at least get recognition as employees. But there again many of the newbies are using training loan payback to offset 100% of tax through their LTD company set ups.
I feel sorry for the folk who got based down there against their preferences. Hopefully they will at least get recognition as employees. But there again many of the newbies are using training loan payback to offset 100% of tax through their LTD company set ups.
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Just received from my Italian source
Corriere della Sera - BERGAMO
section: Report date: 19/10/2012 - page: 4
The government blinda Ryanair
Corriere della Sera - BERGAMO
section: Report date: 19/10/2012 - page: 4
The government blinda Ryanair
Perhaps my searches were looking in the wrong place, so would be grateful for the URL where your translation of the Italian court sentence may be checked out.
Thank you.
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First of all I'm new on this forum so hello everyone!
The court case will be in February. For the time being the Italian government has issued a Decree Law which have to be turned into Law whithin 60 day, and that will happen. I can't find anything in the news at the moment but I'm sure I read an article on Friday
. Any way you can find at this link the Decree Law.
http://www.gazzettaufficiale.it/modu...181012_179.pdf
It's the Article No 38 page 51, It might be difficult to translate with google though. If I can help I'll be happy to do it.
Now, with this law the outcome of the trial in February is obvious.
The court case will be in February. For the time being the Italian government has issued a Decree Law which have to be turned into Law whithin 60 day, and that will happen. I can't find anything in the news at the moment but I'm sure I read an article on Friday
. Any way you can find at this link the Decree Law.http://www.gazzettaufficiale.it/modu...181012_179.pdf
It's the Article No 38 page 51, It might be difficult to translate with google though. If I can help I'll be happy to do it.
Now, with this law the outcome of the trial in February is obvious.
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EEC & lack of joined up thinking
As I see it the problem is that some airlines are using the lack of a common labour policy across the EEC to their advantage.
The original document that set up the EEC made it clear that there was to be free movement of labour within the EEC and restricting a workers right to work in one EEC state by penalising them for being paid in another EEC state could be seen as a direct infringement of the Treaty of Rome.
At the moment the Danish tax authority's have withdrawn the bilateral tax agreement with Spain so in theory a Danish resident who is based in Spain could face the same income being taxed in two EEC states (and probably find a negative number as payment at te end of a months work !). This situation is obviously untenable as it restricts free movement of labour.
The social tax issue is also a problem with some EEC states wishing to get the social tax from all the people based in that EEC state and the EEC state that the person is resident in also trying to collect that Social tax.
All these attempts at the double taxation of a persons income are in direct conflict with other EEC regulations.
The problem is that when the EEC was set up the regulators simply did not foresee the free movement of Labour as more that a theeorectal aspiration and a thing that a few of the super rich could do. Forty years on the movement of labour within the EEC is common with thousands of people working it One EEC state and resident in another and this is all happening without clear EEC wide legislation to regulate it.
The issue is far bigger than Ryanair and as long as there is a conflict in the legislation between EEC states company's and individual's are quit at liberty to use the legislation of the EEC state that best meets their needs, to put it simply what may be unlawful in Italy could be within the law in Ireland and so they would choose to be taxed in Ireland leaving the Italian govement with a leagal problem that is heading in the direction of the very leagal foundation of the EEC if they decide to act against the company or individual.
Until all the EEC states get a common income and social tax system in place this problem will continue and I don't see the EEC rushing to fix anything, after all the new Social tax directive has a ten year phase in period.
The original document that set up the EEC made it clear that there was to be free movement of labour within the EEC and restricting a workers right to work in one EEC state by penalising them for being paid in another EEC state could be seen as a direct infringement of the Treaty of Rome.
At the moment the Danish tax authority's have withdrawn the bilateral tax agreement with Spain so in theory a Danish resident who is based in Spain could face the same income being taxed in two EEC states (and probably find a negative number as payment at te end of a months work !). This situation is obviously untenable as it restricts free movement of labour.
The social tax issue is also a problem with some EEC states wishing to get the social tax from all the people based in that EEC state and the EEC state that the person is resident in also trying to collect that Social tax.
All these attempts at the double taxation of a persons income are in direct conflict with other EEC regulations.
The problem is that when the EEC was set up the regulators simply did not foresee the free movement of Labour as more that a theeorectal aspiration and a thing that a few of the super rich could do. Forty years on the movement of labour within the EEC is common with thousands of people working it One EEC state and resident in another and this is all happening without clear EEC wide legislation to regulate it.
The issue is far bigger than Ryanair and as long as there is a conflict in the legislation between EEC states company's and individual's are quit at liberty to use the legislation of the EEC state that best meets their needs, to put it simply what may be unlawful in Italy could be within the law in Ireland and so they would choose to be taxed in Ireland leaving the Italian govement with a leagal problem that is heading in the direction of the very leagal foundation of the EEC if they decide to act against the company or individual.
Until all the EEC states get a common income and social tax system in place this problem will continue and I don't see the EEC rushing to fix anything, after all the new Social tax directive has a ten year phase in period.
Last edited by A and C; 24th Oct 2012 at 11:20.
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to put it simply what may be unlawful in Italy could be within the law in Ireland and so they would choose to be taxed in Ireland leaving the Italian govement with a leagal problem that is heading in the direction of the very leagal foundation of the EEC if they decide to act against the company or individual.
Especially when they involve millions of euros.
There is a treaty called "Lugano Convention" which , to put it simply, defines which country has the authority over a legal case and therefore which law and legal venue applies.
Its content is pure common sense: if a legal issue arises then it will be handled in the country where the alleged wrongdoings were perpetrated.
If the Italians can prove that Ryanair has bases and operating crews based and living within their territory then the case will be held in Italy and according to Italian laws.
Here is more on the treaty, just to stay informed:
Texts: Lugano Convention and Protocols
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Simplistic maybe !
The Italians may take the view that just because someone is technically based in Italy then they get all the taxes.
Some of us on commuting contract have House, Wife , Car in one EU State, are contracted to an airline in another EU state and are based in a third EU state.
If the roster falls my way I get on an aircraft from my state of residence, land in my Base EU state and then spend five days flying around Europe and then at the end of the duty get on an aircraft back to my state of residence. Wth luck I I will be in the EU state that I am Based in only a few hours a month.
What would the Lugano convention make of that ?
I have no objection to paying the correct tax in any EU state but my concern is that when my pension is due the EU state that I have been taxed in will not pay the pension on the grounds that I have never been a resident.
An English guy that I know who has been resident in France and paying French tax for 25 years has yet to get anything out of the French social security system simply because he is not French, I fear that this is just a Money grab by the EU states that are in economic trouble and that if I am forced to pay taxes in my base state but I will not get any pension from them when I retire.
As I have said above the EEC has to get its act together and come up with a common taxation policy that does not discriminate against those workers who live in one state and work in another.
Some of us on commuting contract have House, Wife , Car in one EU State, are contracted to an airline in another EU state and are based in a third EU state.
If the roster falls my way I get on an aircraft from my state of residence, land in my Base EU state and then spend five days flying around Europe and then at the end of the duty get on an aircraft back to my state of residence. Wth luck I I will be in the EU state that I am Based in only a few hours a month.
What would the Lugano convention make of that ?
I have no objection to paying the correct tax in any EU state but my concern is that when my pension is due the EU state that I have been taxed in will not pay the pension on the grounds that I have never been a resident.
An English guy that I know who has been resident in France and paying French tax for 25 years has yet to get anything out of the French social security system simply because he is not French, I fear that this is just a Money grab by the EU states that are in economic trouble and that if I am forced to pay taxes in my base state but I will not get any pension from them when I retire.
As I have said above the EEC has to get its act together and come up with a common taxation policy that does not discriminate against those workers who live in one state and work in another.
Last edited by A and C; 24th Oct 2012 at 16:19.
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The Italians may take the view that just because someone is technically based in Italy then they get all the taxes.
An English guy that I know who has been resident in France and paying French tax for 25 years has yet to get anything out of the French social security system simply because he is not French, I fear that this is just a Money grab by the EU states that are in economic trouble and that if I am forced to pay taxes in my base state but I will not get any pension from them when I retire.
As I have said above the EEC has to get its act together and come up with a common taxation policy that does not discriminate against those workers who live in one state and work in another.
I have no objection to paying the correct tax in any EU state but my concern is that when my pension is due the EU state that I have been taxed in will not pay the pension on the grounds that I have never been a resident.
Last edited by Dg800; 25th Oct 2012 at 13:31.
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Not clear cut nor easy
I won't even get into the aircrew aspects right now, as it is just a nightmare. Swedish pilot, flies for UK company(managed aircraft) aircraft "based" in Belgium, but physically most flying is to/from Moscow and other EU and non-EU countries.
But the issues are not limited to our industry.....nor are they easily settled. An "infamous" case between what would normally be considered northern European countries with clear rules and agreements, is Netherlands and Denmark. A slaughterhouse in Denmark needed extra workers and contracted to a Dutch company to provide them. According to Dutch law, which is clear in the matter, these men were employees of the Dutch company and they paid Dutch taxes on their salaries. They all live in Netherlands, so seems straight-forward.
But the Danish authorities are demanding income tax as well, claiming that they are de facto employees of the slaughterhouse in Denmark, as the management of the slaughterhouse issued their day to day work duties and regulated their working hours etc(!)
This has been going on for YEARS with no settlement, because both countries are sticking to their rules and will not negotiate. In the meantime, the Danes have attacked the only target available to them---the Danish slaughterhouse, and demanded penalties for not withholding income tax. Of course, they defend themselves by saying that they never hired these men, but signed a contract with another company. So the battle goes on.
EU is not helping, national laws are not helping and at the end of the day, the Dutch workers will not be earning in Denmark, the slaughterhouse may not be able to process what they can sell, due to lack of skilled workers, and the net result is a system-wide loss. But explain that to a desk-jockey in the Danish tax office.
Aviation-wise, I was offered a Jersey contract, when I was later wrongfully dismissed, neither the Jersey Labour Tribunal, nor the legal system in the aircraft registered country would hear my case. So as far as I am concerned, EU including the JAA/EASA nightmare is a waste of time and money. I have to admit that there has been no major European war since 1945, so the primary objective of keeping Germany in check seems to have worked so far.
Other than that, which might have been accomplished in other ways, having non-elected technocrats and office geeks running our lives on all too many levels has been a very high price. How can it be that disgraced and elected politicians that get removed from national politics, always seem to end up in some high-paying position in EU?
Amazing.....
But the issues are not limited to our industry.....nor are they easily settled. An "infamous" case between what would normally be considered northern European countries with clear rules and agreements, is Netherlands and Denmark. A slaughterhouse in Denmark needed extra workers and contracted to a Dutch company to provide them. According to Dutch law, which is clear in the matter, these men were employees of the Dutch company and they paid Dutch taxes on their salaries. They all live in Netherlands, so seems straight-forward.
But the Danish authorities are demanding income tax as well, claiming that they are de facto employees of the slaughterhouse in Denmark, as the management of the slaughterhouse issued their day to day work duties and regulated their working hours etc(!)
This has been going on for YEARS with no settlement, because both countries are sticking to their rules and will not negotiate. In the meantime, the Danes have attacked the only target available to them---the Danish slaughterhouse, and demanded penalties for not withholding income tax. Of course, they defend themselves by saying that they never hired these men, but signed a contract with another company. So the battle goes on.
EU is not helping, national laws are not helping and at the end of the day, the Dutch workers will not be earning in Denmark, the slaughterhouse may not be able to process what they can sell, due to lack of skilled workers, and the net result is a system-wide loss. But explain that to a desk-jockey in the Danish tax office.
Aviation-wise, I was offered a Jersey contract, when I was later wrongfully dismissed, neither the Jersey Labour Tribunal, nor the legal system in the aircraft registered country would hear my case. So as far as I am concerned, EU including the JAA/EASA nightmare is a waste of time and money. I have to admit that there has been no major European war since 1945, so the primary objective of keeping Germany in check seems to have worked so far.
Other than that, which might have been accomplished in other ways, having non-elected technocrats and office geeks running our lives on all too many levels has been a very high price. How can it be that disgraced and elected politicians that get removed from national politics, always seem to end up in some high-paying position in EU?
Amazing.....
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Dg800
I will deal with your misunderstandings in order:-
The Social tax issue has a ten year phase in time so the Italian demand for these taxes to be paid in Italy is not going to happen overnight as long as the people are paying the social taxes in the EU state in which they reside. The link below from the UK tax authorities might help you with this.
HM Revenue & Customs: National Insurance: New EU rules for flight and cabin crew working in two or more Member States
If you read the EU directive you will see that if your Home Base is changes frequently you can apply to have the social taxes paid in you state of residence and NOT at the home base state, I would think that a lot of people in Ryanair would fall into this category.
I am very sorry to say that as of a few weeks ago the French were still not giving my friend any access to the social security system dispite having paid all the taxes due as a resident of France for the last 25 years,unless something has changed in the last month or so this is not as you say bull****....... It is fact.
On the matter of EU states getting their act together on income tax I refer you to the post above about the Dutch workers in the Danish salaughter house.
The answer to the question is very much in the second paragraph above, in theory the EU state should pay out Pensions and the like if you have paid the taxes but with the current state of the southern europan economy's what do you think the chances of getting your full entitlement are when you are living and trying to claim your money from the other end of Europe......... Or to put it another way if you lived in Sweden and were based in Athens were would you want to pay the money that will keep you in your retirement ?
These governments know that the cost of taking them to court and the time it would take to get the money due from them is prohibitive, in other words you will run out of money for the leagal action or die before the case gets to the European court.
The Social tax issue has a ten year phase in time so the Italian demand for these taxes to be paid in Italy is not going to happen overnight as long as the people are paying the social taxes in the EU state in which they reside. The link below from the UK tax authorities might help you with this.
HM Revenue & Customs: National Insurance: New EU rules for flight and cabin crew working in two or more Member States
If you read the EU directive you will see that if your Home Base is changes frequently you can apply to have the social taxes paid in you state of residence and NOT at the home base state, I would think that a lot of people in Ryanair would fall into this category.
I am very sorry to say that as of a few weeks ago the French were still not giving my friend any access to the social security system dispite having paid all the taxes due as a resident of France for the last 25 years,unless something has changed in the last month or so this is not as you say bull****....... It is fact.
On the matter of EU states getting their act together on income tax I refer you to the post above about the Dutch workers in the Danish salaughter house.
The answer to the question is very much in the second paragraph above, in theory the EU state should pay out Pensions and the like if you have paid the taxes but with the current state of the southern europan economy's what do you think the chances of getting your full entitlement are when you are living and trying to claim your money from the other end of Europe......... Or to put it another way if you lived in Sweden and were based in Athens were would you want to pay the money that will keep you in your retirement ?
These governments know that the cost of taking them to court and the time it would take to get the money due from them is prohibitive, in other words you will run out of money for the leagal action or die before the case gets to the European court.
Last edited by A and C; 25th Oct 2012 at 16:14.
