State of the industry in the UK
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State of the industry in the UK
I am not sure if this is the right place to post, if not mods please feel free to relocate.
Disclaimer: I fully understand that trying to predict the pilot job market is akin to staring into the crystal ball...
I am a Brit Abroad (in the good old US of A) with a FAA ATP and BE400 Type Rating. I am currently flying the Beechjet roughly 30 - 40 hours a month and have roughly 200 hours in type and 2500 total. I would like to return to Blighty at some point to pursue an airline career, but I am not sure when I should start the conversion process and how valuable my experience is.
I absolutely refuse to pay for a Type or pay for 'Line Training' and based on my limited research it seems that this is the prevalent way low experience pilots get their start. Without wanting to start a debate on the merits of such programs, I personally feel that they are a serious detriment to our industry. My hope is that with some jet experience I might be desirable at a decent operator.
I understand that EASA has now taken charge from JAA but it seems there have not been any drastic changes from the point of view of Flight Crew Licensing and the conversion of foreign licenses. I would estimate that it would take me 6 months to a year to study for and pass the ATPL writtens whilst working full time, by which time I would have 500 hours multi-crew time, negating the requirement to complete a MCC. However, it is gonna take at least another couple of years at this rate to get to 1500 hours multi crew. My understanding is that this means I must complete a formal Groundschool for the writtens (no big deal, I can do distance learning) and also means that I cannot take a skills test in the aircraft I am rated on (BE400). Thus I must do a CPL ME IR in a piston pounder, and my Beechjet rating will not be applied to my new EASA ATPL.
Would I be in a better position to try to get hired at an airline over here, get some time in a valuable type and then try to move over.
Thoughts please.
Thanks in advance...
Disclaimer: I fully understand that trying to predict the pilot job market is akin to staring into the crystal ball...
I am a Brit Abroad (in the good old US of A) with a FAA ATP and BE400 Type Rating. I am currently flying the Beechjet roughly 30 - 40 hours a month and have roughly 200 hours in type and 2500 total. I would like to return to Blighty at some point to pursue an airline career, but I am not sure when I should start the conversion process and how valuable my experience is.
I absolutely refuse to pay for a Type or pay for 'Line Training' and based on my limited research it seems that this is the prevalent way low experience pilots get their start. Without wanting to start a debate on the merits of such programs, I personally feel that they are a serious detriment to our industry. My hope is that with some jet experience I might be desirable at a decent operator.
I understand that EASA has now taken charge from JAA but it seems there have not been any drastic changes from the point of view of Flight Crew Licensing and the conversion of foreign licenses. I would estimate that it would take me 6 months to a year to study for and pass the ATPL writtens whilst working full time, by which time I would have 500 hours multi-crew time, negating the requirement to complete a MCC. However, it is gonna take at least another couple of years at this rate to get to 1500 hours multi crew. My understanding is that this means I must complete a formal Groundschool for the writtens (no big deal, I can do distance learning) and also means that I cannot take a skills test in the aircraft I am rated on (BE400). Thus I must do a CPL ME IR in a piston pounder, and my Beechjet rating will not be applied to my new EASA ATPL.
Would I be in a better position to try to get hired at an airline over here, get some time in a valuable type and then try to move over.
Thoughts please.
Thanks in advance...
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Big changes on the employment front will be happening in the UK next year. As Bob Marley said.....Don't give up the fight!
I think we will be needing experienced pilots in the UK.
I think we will be needing experienced pilots in the UK.
what's that info based on
It's an interesting theory, I'm sure it's on a management wish list but I would not get your hopes up, make a career changing decision or plan to repatriate to the UK based on his/her comment....
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Everything is subjective if all of the above work for poor employers then that is their only view on things, however if you work for a good employer (as I do) then your views would be very different ! It all depends who you offer your services to !
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Everything is subjective if all of the above work for poor employers then that is their only view on things, however if you work for a good employer (as I do) then your views would be very different ! It all depends who you offer your services to !
Jet2 seem only interested in offering seasonal placements, EasyJet prefer Flexicrew cadets and don't seem to be offering permanent UK positions, and Ryanair....need you even ask?
Supply still continues to outstrip demand, with the big FTOs regularly pumping out 200hr wonder-kids who have assessment dates lined up at the big two lo-co's before the ink sets on their licences. Unfortunately this has led to once valued experience, much like your own, being regarded as an expensive commodity. It's a shame really, however market forces prevail.
Some debate that it may take an accident which points the finger at experience levels and working practices on the flightdecks of particular airlines. The often cited example is the Colgan Airways Q400 in the US. Others suggested that the decline in growth of the larger loco's who favour such recruitment would inevitably lead to further diminished prospects and t&c's, so much to the point that viability no longer exists. Seasonal contracts and the reduction in contracted hours have made there way into both Easyjet and Ryanair. Unfortunately there has been no let up in applicants, with the large FTOs unashamedly marketing these two as the only real path into the industry in Europe. With people willing to fly for nothing, what does anyone expect?
Last edited by Callsign Kilo; 4th Oct 2012 at 12:41.
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Thanks for all the replies.
I am married to a US citizen and currently hold a Green Card. I will be eligible for US Citizenship next year, which I will probably pursue as soon as I can. I learned to fly in the States and have spent the last 3 years or so trying to build experience and 'paying my dues'. I have something like 1000 hours of dual given, 500 flying bank cheques in a Bonanza, a year flying the PC12 at a fractional and the last 6 months in the Beechjet.
I certainly don't plan on uprooting without a job lined up, I am just trying to plan for the future. I like it over here and it definitely seems that the industry may be slightly better, but it is not home.
The FAA has recently required that any FO at an airline must hold an ATP starting summer 2013, meaning that the 200 hour airline pilot is a thing of the past. At the same time, our Age 65 retirements should have begun in earnest, so barring any great financial meltdown, it seems that demand might at least draw level with supply.
Was there not a similar extension in the retirement age in JAAland that should be coming to fruition soon?
I could probably get hired tomorrow at a regional airline flying E170/175s and build up some airline experience and get some >30 ton time (for Emirates etc). However, doing so would represent a significant paycut (close to 50%) and probably a decrease in quality of life. Would this type be worth anything in the UK?
Decisions, decisions
I am married to a US citizen and currently hold a Green Card. I will be eligible for US Citizenship next year, which I will probably pursue as soon as I can. I learned to fly in the States and have spent the last 3 years or so trying to build experience and 'paying my dues'. I have something like 1000 hours of dual given, 500 flying bank cheques in a Bonanza, a year flying the PC12 at a fractional and the last 6 months in the Beechjet.
I certainly don't plan on uprooting without a job lined up, I am just trying to plan for the future. I like it over here and it definitely seems that the industry may be slightly better, but it is not home.
The FAA has recently required that any FO at an airline must hold an ATP starting summer 2013, meaning that the 200 hour airline pilot is a thing of the past. At the same time, our Age 65 retirements should have begun in earnest, so barring any great financial meltdown, it seems that demand might at least draw level with supply.
Was there not a similar extension in the retirement age in JAAland that should be coming to fruition soon?
I could probably get hired tomorrow at a regional airline flying E170/175s and build up some airline experience and get some >30 ton time (for Emirates etc). However, doing so would represent a significant paycut (close to 50%) and probably a decrease in quality of life. Would this type be worth anything in the UK?
Decisions, decisions
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...I suspect our non pilot, low to middle management grade friend WW believes IAG is going to start up a "BA Express" type operation to undercut the mainline BA operation...
I could probably get hired tomorrow at a regional airline flying E170/175s...
You sound in a better position than most in Europe, short term i'd stay put!
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Hubbs your about 20 years too late. Back then you would of had ideal experience for a start with any number of UK airlines. A salaried job with a pension. You would of been bonded but would not have paid any money as long as you stayed 2-3 years, the bond would have amortised each month. Flying hours anywhere between 500 and 700 a year, probably paid extra if you flew more.
There is only one bastion of a decent aviation career left and I am not even going to whisper it.
There is only one bastion of a decent aviation career left and I am not even going to whisper it.
Last edited by Enecosse; 8th Oct 2012 at 16:16. Reason: grammer; not have instead of not of paid
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Any idea if things will ever go back to the way they were? Or is there a constant stream of new blood unwilling to 'work' towards a job, rather just pay to play?
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Or is there a constant stream of new blood unwilling to 'work' towards a job, rather just pay to play?
Do you think there are jobs just there for those who, if I am correct in what you are saying, gain their CPL while holding down a part time job, do a bit of instructing and air taxi work before joining a regional outfit on a turboprop before finally landing a job in the RHS of a modern jet with a few thousand hours under their belt?
Not in Europe.
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I would stay put if I were you. Wait and see where this is going. Like mentioned above the FTO's are still producing way to many new pilots and the low-cost carriers are raising towards the bottom. Where will that end and if so when?
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hubbs...
If I had it to do again.......I would stay flying in ALASKA!
when you can walk away from the airplane....you feel like you have actually done something worthwhile.....you feel so alive.
not the same in most airline jobs these days....you walk away from the airplane uncertain of most everything.
when you can walk away from the airplane....you feel like you have actually done something worthwhile.....you feel so alive.
not the same in most airline jobs these days....you walk away from the airplane uncertain of most everything.
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I was in a similar position...
I flew and lived in the US for 11 years, ending up as a CRJ Captain for a big regional airline. I did all the JAA tests and got the ATPL with a JAA CRJ rating in it. I applied for a couple of jobs in the EU but never got hired anywhere with just a CRJ/CL850 rating, my wife was keen on coming back to the UK for the kids school/family etc. so we came back. I commuted to my airline job for a while back and forth across the pond and finally realized that that was no life, so I applied and got hired a sim instructor at a big ATO in the UK, I'm 25 mins from home and got a nice new 50k Biz jet type on both my FAA and EASA licences and pretty happy with my lot at the moment.
My advice for what it's worth is to get the airline experience over there and try and get into a useful type (NOT a CRJ). Try and get a PIC E-Jet rating and then eventually a 73 or 320 rating, once you have all that, coming back would be a lot easier. Choose wisely though, get your command time in the regional ASAP if poss and then get out, in fact you should be able to get hired at most if not all majors or nationals without regional command experience (do you have a degree?).
If you're anxious to get back ASAP, go for an regional E-145 operator (I recommend ExpressJet/ASA) which as you know is a the same type as the Legacy, get that on your ATPL and a you might find a bit of work over here.
Good luck to you, feel free to PM for more info..
I flew and lived in the US for 11 years, ending up as a CRJ Captain for a big regional airline. I did all the JAA tests and got the ATPL with a JAA CRJ rating in it. I applied for a couple of jobs in the EU but never got hired anywhere with just a CRJ/CL850 rating, my wife was keen on coming back to the UK for the kids school/family etc. so we came back. I commuted to my airline job for a while back and forth across the pond and finally realized that that was no life, so I applied and got hired a sim instructor at a big ATO in the UK, I'm 25 mins from home and got a nice new 50k Biz jet type on both my FAA and EASA licences and pretty happy with my lot at the moment.
My advice for what it's worth is to get the airline experience over there and try and get into a useful type (NOT a CRJ). Try and get a PIC E-Jet rating and then eventually a 73 or 320 rating, once you have all that, coming back would be a lot easier. Choose wisely though, get your command time in the regional ASAP if poss and then get out, in fact you should be able to get hired at most if not all majors or nationals without regional command experience (do you have a degree?).
If you're anxious to get back ASAP, go for an regional E-145 operator (I recommend ExpressJet/ASA) which as you know is a the same type as the Legacy, get that on your ATPL and a you might find a bit of work over here.
Good luck to you, feel free to PM for more info..
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Boeing 7117,
I don't mean to come across harshly, but it seems to me that the low time cadets are directly responsible for the industry being so bad over there.
I find it hard to believe that there is no way whatsoever to build experience. The are flight schools over there, there are air taxi companies, right? Seems to me that the issue is not that the 'paying one's dues' route is not available it is just that it is time consuming and a lot less glamorous. It also seems that this was once the accepted route, and still is over here.
There would be far fewer wannabes paying £100+ application fees to see if they are even eligible to sign a cheque for £100k if they were told it will be 3 years after they graduate till get in a jet (which is what it took me). Not only will these pilots be far more experienced than their 250hr colleagues, they might even present themselves as an asset in the cockpit rather than a hindrance. In addition, this might lead to a shortage of qualified pilots which will lead to better Ts and Cs for everyone. None of this pay for type, pay for line training, flexicrew, or PT contract BS.
This should not have been allowed to happen, but it did, now pilots need work to get back control of the industry.
I don't mean to come across harshly, but it seems to me that the low time cadets are directly responsible for the industry being so bad over there.
I find it hard to believe that there is no way whatsoever to build experience. The are flight schools over there, there are air taxi companies, right? Seems to me that the issue is not that the 'paying one's dues' route is not available it is just that it is time consuming and a lot less glamorous. It also seems that this was once the accepted route, and still is over here.
There would be far fewer wannabes paying £100+ application fees to see if they are even eligible to sign a cheque for £100k if they were told it will be 3 years after they graduate till get in a jet (which is what it took me). Not only will these pilots be far more experienced than their 250hr colleagues, they might even present themselves as an asset in the cockpit rather than a hindrance. In addition, this might lead to a shortage of qualified pilots which will lead to better Ts and Cs for everyone. None of this pay for type, pay for line training, flexicrew, or PT contract BS.
This should not have been allowed to happen, but it did, now pilots need work to get back control of the industry.