How can we UNITE to make AIRLINE profession one of respectability and better money?
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How can we UNITE to make AIRLINE profession one of respectability and better money?
I have noticed a change for the worse in the way we AIRLINE PILOTS are treated both by passengers and airline managements. Something must be done before the profession we love becomes unbearable.
Time and again I am reminded that I am just a lowly driver and compared to taxi drivers. This is not on. Nobody recognizes a flying licence akin to a degree course like other professionals.
Pilots are rapidly moving down the food chain and bankers(thieves) and other not any smarter than us professionals are moving way up. The disparity is becoming huge and it's time to come together and demand better (at least double of our present SALARIES), because not only do we deserve it, I know of no better way of gaining respect.
Who will pay for it, you ask? The same passengers who willingly pay fuel surcharges will be made to pay for (our respected Airline Captains surcharge -for instance)
I am certain that I am not the only one on this planet who has similar feelings.
Let's get some ideas from the incredibly smart people on this platform and get this thing started.
Time and again I am reminded that I am just a lowly driver and compared to taxi drivers. This is not on. Nobody recognizes a flying licence akin to a degree course like other professionals.
Pilots are rapidly moving down the food chain and bankers(thieves) and other not any smarter than us professionals are moving way up. The disparity is becoming huge and it's time to come together and demand better (at least double of our present SALARIES), because not only do we deserve it, I know of no better way of gaining respect.
Who will pay for it, you ask? The same passengers who willingly pay fuel surcharges will be made to pay for (our respected Airline Captains surcharge -for instance)
I am certain that I am not the only one on this planet who has similar feelings.
Let's get some ideas from the incredibly smart people on this platform and get this thing started.
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In my opinion, it's quite simple. Supply Vs. Demand. Too many of us in the pot for employers to give a damn and hence the price per packet is low and the treatment of each individual is poor. In the UK alone we are pumping upwards of a 2000 CPL holders per year with no where near that amount retiring.
Now, that might also be the case for other careers within the transportation section where the supply outstrips the demand but that's where we turn to regulation and industry lobbying....unfortunately the regulatory bodies are often in the hands of the airlines themselves who pay huge fees to be "regulated" and the lobbying/union groups are often headed up by expired old relics from a bygone era who are buddies of airline management in any case.
The solution I think is that we need to drag our cause into modernity because a lot of people have some very old views about what's going wrong.
Now, that might also be the case for other careers within the transportation section where the supply outstrips the demand but that's where we turn to regulation and industry lobbying....unfortunately the regulatory bodies are often in the hands of the airlines themselves who pay huge fees to be "regulated" and the lobbying/union groups are often headed up by expired old relics from a bygone era who are buddies of airline management in any case.
The solution I think is that we need to drag our cause into modernity because a lot of people have some very old views about what's going wrong.
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Who will pay for it you ask bobdazzle?
The same folk who have been paying for it for the last 15 years or so: the pilots, or the parents of the pilots.
Take your complaint to your union: it's they who can do something about if their members want them to. The unions will do what the members ask or tell them to do. If you say nothing they will either do nothing or make up their own agenda.
The same folk who have been paying for it for the last 15 years or so: the pilots, or the parents of the pilots.
Take your complaint to your union: it's they who can do something about if their members want them to. The unions will do what the members ask or tell them to do. If you say nothing they will either do nothing or make up their own agenda.
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Perhaps a matter of perception?
Can't find it now, but someone on this site posted a link to a league table of highest paid earners in the UK. Pilots were 4th, behind company directors, upper government officials and medicine. Most interestingly, ahead of the demonic bankers!
And as for pilots licences being akin to a degree, oh purleeez! My friend is a orthopaedic surgeon. 37 years old and only just finished formal study which has been pretty relentless since leaving school. 18 months after my first solo I was flying a 737.
Finally, I find the public's perception of us to be very respectful. Remember that video when O Leary likened us to "overpaid minicab drivers"? I heard a gasp of disapproval from the audience.
It may not be what it used to be (what is?), but its still a very, very good job.
Can't find it now, but someone on this site posted a link to a league table of highest paid earners in the UK. Pilots were 4th, behind company directors, upper government officials and medicine. Most interestingly, ahead of the demonic bankers!
And as for pilots licences being akin to a degree, oh purleeez! My friend is a orthopaedic surgeon. 37 years old and only just finished formal study which has been pretty relentless since leaving school. 18 months after my first solo I was flying a 737.
Finally, I find the public's perception of us to be very respectful. Remember that video when O Leary likened us to "overpaid minicab drivers"? I heard a gasp of disapproval from the audience.
It may not be what it used to be (what is?), but its still a very, very good job.
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FO salaries might be quite good, but take into account how much they are repaying (in many cases) for loans that covered their training then it all starts to look a bit thin.
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That's because a flying licence is patently not akin to a proper degree course, neither in terms of academic requirements nor time taken to obtain.
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Strong unions. That's how. Imagine the train or tube drivers putting up with "pay to drive" or repeated frisking every day of your career? No, me neither.
We need a stronger union.
We need a stronger union.
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Mr. Smith-Quite evidently you are not a pilot and so can’t be a judge as to what or how long it takes to get an AIRLINE TRANSPORT PILOTS LICENCE (more on that in another post). The idea here is to create that awareness amongst people like yourself and others who think flying airplanes is similar to say driving taxis.Quite to the contrary- as a matter of fact. The jets that you often board are multi million dollar complex pieces of machinery operated by very intelligent, driven and PROUD people who take huge responsibilities just because of their love for flying.
Now compare that to the overpaid bankers (the likes of the guys from Goldman sachs, Citibank… to name a few). These guys come out of business schools after degree courses lasting three years or longer. If Mr. Warren Buffet is to be believed, his company Berkshire Hathaway does not employ a single biz school graduate- simply because Mr.Buffet believes that they teach nothing of great importance in these biz schools. These overpaid pompous guys come out with fancy degrees and a lot of complicated finance related mumbo jumbo (bulls…t) which helps them cheat the unsuspecting public. These guys take home hefty salaries and bonuses are are looked upon as geniuses of our society. My question is this: If they are so bright, then how come institutions (CITIBANK ….and many others which went bankrupt) which until 10 years ago were Trillion dollar economies by themselves ARE TODAY BANKRUPT and these super intelligent guys still get all the respect. Mr Warren Buffet was right. Their degrees are useless. These people are useless.
Now come back to those intelligent and driven men in their flying machines carrying Heads of States, Celebrities, sport personalities and those same worthless chaps from the various biz schools responsibly to their respective destinations- in return for peanuts. GROSSLY UNFAIR.
The idea is for the whole pilot community all around the world to come together to this discussion and demand what is their due.
Now compare that to the overpaid bankers (the likes of the guys from Goldman sachs, Citibank… to name a few). These guys come out of business schools after degree courses lasting three years or longer. If Mr. Warren Buffet is to be believed, his company Berkshire Hathaway does not employ a single biz school graduate- simply because Mr.Buffet believes that they teach nothing of great importance in these biz schools. These overpaid pompous guys come out with fancy degrees and a lot of complicated finance related mumbo jumbo (bulls…t) which helps them cheat the unsuspecting public. These guys take home hefty salaries and bonuses are are looked upon as geniuses of our society. My question is this: If they are so bright, then how come institutions (CITIBANK ….and many others which went bankrupt) which until 10 years ago were Trillion dollar economies by themselves ARE TODAY BANKRUPT and these super intelligent guys still get all the respect. Mr Warren Buffet was right. Their degrees are useless. These people are useless.
Now come back to those intelligent and driven men in their flying machines carrying Heads of States, Celebrities, sport personalities and those same worthless chaps from the various biz schools responsibly to their respective destinations- in return for peanuts. GROSSLY UNFAIR.
The idea is for the whole pilot community all around the world to come together to this discussion and demand what is their due.
Buttonpusher
18 months after my first solo I was flying a 737.
Prior to that it was 10 years of working my way up.
You may pooh pooh your ascension to the right seat. I feel like I've paid for mine.
Having completed a law degree, and gained an ATPL, I feel that I'm in a reasonable position to say that comparing a flying licence to a good degree in an academic subject is like comparing apples and oranges.
As far as "How can we UNITE to make AIRLINE profession one of respectability and better money?" is concerned words to do with closing the stable door after the horse has bolted come to mind.
The main challenge I see is that pilots in general across the industry are not united and there seem to be more "Martini" pilots these days - "anytime, anywhere, any place and any Terms & Conditions"
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At Cambridge, a student spends 3 terms of 8 weeks per year, for three years. That's 18 months.
But let's face it, it's not academically challenging. Not under JAA.
Borrowing loads of money to fund a frozen ATPL is not a reason for airlines to pay more.
Salaries will remain low as long as there are hundreds of people borrowing unaffordable sums of cash to fund a dream, which for many, turns out to be not quite what they thought. Only when that supply is reduced will those who are qualified be paid a bit more. Unfortunately, that's not going to happen for many years and our relative worth will continue to diminish compared with our peers in other professions.
But let's face it, it's not academically challenging. Not under JAA.
Borrowing loads of money to fund a frozen ATPL is not a reason for airlines to pay more.
Salaries will remain low as long as there are hundreds of people borrowing unaffordable sums of cash to fund a dream, which for many, turns out to be not quite what they thought. Only when that supply is reduced will those who are qualified be paid a bit more. Unfortunately, that's not going to happen for many years and our relative worth will continue to diminish compared with our peers in other professions.
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Let's get real here..
Our profession is like every other.. in a state of constant change; influenced, as it is by many factors..politics, global and national economies, competition, changing needs and expectations etc etc..
Bottom line is.. it doesn't matter a
what Joe-Public thinks because his opinion is based on ignorance and tabloid drivel. WTF does he know about the huge volume of ATPL studying.. or learning to fly by sole reference to instruments, or bad-weather operations..or satisfying management's (often unreasonable) expectations?
No siree... what really matters is what you think of your success, your achievements and your responsibilities.
Maybe if your self-esteem is so low, you might consider a career change?
Just MHO of course.
Bottom line is.. it doesn't matter a
what Joe-Public thinks because his opinion is based on ignorance and tabloid drivel. WTF does he know about the huge volume of ATPL studying.. or learning to fly by sole reference to instruments, or bad-weather operations..or satisfying management's (often unreasonable) expectations?No siree... what really matters is what you think of your success, your achievements and your responsibilities.
Maybe if your self-esteem is so low, you might consider a career change?
Just MHO of course.
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Bobdazzle, I'm not sure why you have such a problem with bankers and it would seem graduates in general?
I did an academically tough degree at a good university. It was bloody hard work and I wouldn't have been able to succeed in the industry I worked in, without it. I was paid £12500 in my first year of work and though £20,000 was seen as the heady heights.
I changed career for something I really wanted to do and thoroughly enjoy. I can tell you from direct experience that the fATPL training I did was easy in comparison to my degree. Yes, there were tough bits and yes, there were bits where I could have really messed up. But to say an ATPL is comparable to a degree is just nonsense. The tough bit about doing it was the personal financial risk.
I now get paid more than I ever did in my former career, by a large margin, although that was not a factor in deciding to do this. I love my job, I don't have to go to work as much as I used to and I get well paid..... It ain't so bad.
I did an academically tough degree at a good university. It was bloody hard work and I wouldn't have been able to succeed in the industry I worked in, without it. I was paid £12500 in my first year of work and though £20,000 was seen as the heady heights.
I changed career for something I really wanted to do and thoroughly enjoy. I can tell you from direct experience that the fATPL training I did was easy in comparison to my degree. Yes, there were tough bits and yes, there were bits where I could have really messed up. But to say an ATPL is comparable to a degree is just nonsense. The tough bit about doing it was the personal financial risk.
I now get paid more than I ever did in my former career, by a large margin, although that was not a factor in deciding to do this. I love my job, I don't have to go to work as much as I used to and I get well paid..... It ain't so bad.
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Of course...
when a POSTER resorts to random and inappropriate use of underscoring,
CAPITAL LETTERS and bold type, (like Bobdazzle for instance), it could be that their argument lacks substance and CONVICTION ...imho OF COURSE! Mind how you go.
CAPITAL LETTERS and bold type, (like Bobdazzle for instance), it could be that their argument lacks substance and CONVICTION ...imho OF COURSE! Mind how you go.
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I did make a post earlier Mr Dazzle on why your suggestion,
while exemplary, is just a pipe dream. Unfortunately some
mod instantly deleted it within minutes of posting for some
reason best known to him (or her) self.
No use me trying to post it again because I'm sure it'll be
chopped even if I tried changing the wording.
Can PM if you want to follow up.
while exemplary, is just a pipe dream. Unfortunately some
mod instantly deleted it within minutes of posting for some
reason best known to him (or her) self.
No use me trying to post it again because I'm sure it'll be
chopped even if I tried changing the wording.
Can PM if you want to follow up.
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Make it harder!
Make aviators not P2F screen watchers and button pushers!
In no particular order:
1. Remove the mostly irrelevant multi guess JAR/EASA ATPL system and return to an apprenticeship scheme with g-teed jobs if above average piloting and automation airmanship skills are evident.
2. Mandatory Upset Recovery training at least 1x per year for all airline pilots in aerobatic aircraft following a RAF CFS/ Military or similar syllabus.
3. Better support for young pilots entering the profession with debt advice, mentoring by older pilots, and improved on the job training through GA and Turbo prop airlines.
4. Recruitment of experienced Pilots (including ex military and Turbo Prop/GA Aviators) who cannot afford to pay for Type Ratings nor subsidise Airline Line Flying
5. Create a Legally based industry watchdog accountable to the Govt. that monitors Flight Schools and Airline pilot training practices.
6. Cadets start on the shop floor (maybe like old Air Atlantique system) and work their way up by merit not $$$$$.
7. Chop students who fail Flight/SIM tests at 2nd attempt regardless of their ability to pay TRTOs $$$$$
8. Self funding only up to frozen ATPL. Remove P2F TRs and "Line Flying" entirely. Create Airline Industry wide Bonding system which goes where ever pilot moves to and account number must be declared on CPL/ATPL licence.
9. Stop chimps training chimps churning out X thousand inexperienced and now broke CPLs per year. Instead make the MPL/Integrated route better through 1-8 above and remove the "train to be a copilot" part of MPL replace with "train to be resilient aviator capable of taking over if the P1/Captain should expire enroute/become overloading in an emergency".
10. Raise the standard of Instructors from PPL to TRTO TRIs and TREs by paying at least a living wage and providing standardisation and opportunities for Instructors to progress their flying and learn from others in Airlines, Military, Manufacturers etc.
If we don't do something like this FOs will be ground based Screen Watchers working out of call centres 1000s of miles from the airliners they will pay to monitor !
In no particular order:
1. Remove the mostly irrelevant multi guess JAR/EASA ATPL system and return to an apprenticeship scheme with g-teed jobs if above average piloting and automation airmanship skills are evident.
2. Mandatory Upset Recovery training at least 1x per year for all airline pilots in aerobatic aircraft following a RAF CFS/ Military or similar syllabus.
3. Better support for young pilots entering the profession with debt advice, mentoring by older pilots, and improved on the job training through GA and Turbo prop airlines.
4. Recruitment of experienced Pilots (including ex military and Turbo Prop/GA Aviators) who cannot afford to pay for Type Ratings nor subsidise Airline Line Flying
5. Create a Legally based industry watchdog accountable to the Govt. that monitors Flight Schools and Airline pilot training practices.
6. Cadets start on the shop floor (maybe like old Air Atlantique system) and work their way up by merit not $$$$$.
7. Chop students who fail Flight/SIM tests at 2nd attempt regardless of their ability to pay TRTOs $$$$$
8. Self funding only up to frozen ATPL. Remove P2F TRs and "Line Flying" entirely. Create Airline Industry wide Bonding system which goes where ever pilot moves to and account number must be declared on CPL/ATPL licence.
9. Stop chimps training chimps churning out X thousand inexperienced and now broke CPLs per year. Instead make the MPL/Integrated route better through 1-8 above and remove the "train to be a copilot" part of MPL replace with "train to be resilient aviator capable of taking over if the P1/Captain should expire enroute/become overloading in an emergency".
10. Raise the standard of Instructors from PPL to TRTO TRIs and TREs by paying at least a living wage and providing standardisation and opportunities for Instructors to progress their flying and learn from others in Airlines, Military, Manufacturers etc.
If we don't do something like this FOs will be ground based Screen Watchers working out of call centres 1000s of miles from the airliners they will pay to monitor !
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I quite like the ideas in the above post.
It would be nice to share the cockpit with pilots who have earned the right to be there rather than paid to be there.
Give it 5 years and the CTC type pilots will be moaning too about the lack of jobs as more pay to fly wallers pour into the bottom end of the market taking the jobs of more experienced F/O's
All this has to be bad for CRM if you ask me, which you didnt so I will shut up now.
It would be nice to share the cockpit with pilots who have earned the right to be there rather than paid to be there.
Give it 5 years and the CTC type pilots will be moaning too about the lack of jobs as more pay to fly wallers pour into the bottom end of the market taking the jobs of more experienced F/O's
All this has to be bad for CRM if you ask me, which you didnt so I will shut up now.
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Pilot problems.
Go back in history. On this side of the pond, airlines were run by pilots; Pan Am, Eastern, TWA, Delta etc. As soon as the accountants took over, everything changed. Now it's difficult to even get a meal on a flight. Also the influx of the charter industry has put so much pressure on the skeds that many good airlines have disappeared. Charters cheapened everything.
The other problems are; the seniority system (which only benefits the airlines) preventing pilots from moving to other jobs and maintain their current status. Instead they start at the bottom again, even with years of experience. Absolute rubbish. Next we have the age old reluctance of pilots to stick together for their own good. Look at all the finger poking on PPrune for example. Look at the lack of common sense in the AF447 posts. Till we overcome these obstacles, nothing will change. Too bad.
One more point. Airlines are no good without aeroplanes and 'planes are no good without pilots. Unfortunately the pilots don't realize that fact. They are really the ones in control. Will someone please inform them.
The other problems are; the seniority system (which only benefits the airlines) preventing pilots from moving to other jobs and maintain their current status. Instead they start at the bottom again, even with years of experience. Absolute rubbish. Next we have the age old reluctance of pilots to stick together for their own good. Look at all the finger poking on PPrune for example. Look at the lack of common sense in the AF447 posts. Till we overcome these obstacles, nothing will change. Too bad.
One more point. Airlines are no good without aeroplanes and 'planes are no good without pilots. Unfortunately the pilots don't realize that fact. They are really the ones in control. Will someone please inform them.
Last edited by thermostat; 1st Apr 2012 at 01:42.
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Wise up guys, things ain't ever going to change in fact they are only going to get worse, so get used to it.
Only hope of any improvement is China sucking a few experienced ex-pats over there but the long line of P2F wannabe's will provide cannon fodder for the airlines.
So suck it up guys, not what you want to hear but best your gonna get,