How can we UNITE to make AIRLINE profession one of respectability and better money?
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ricfly744, you obviously hanker after the good old days, as many of us do.
Sadly, in those 'golden days', aircraft used to crash a lot more often than they do now. Obviously the reasons for this improvement in safety are numerous, but 'modern' CRM has undoubtedly played a part.
Just because the captain's authority has been democratised a little, does not mean the professional standing of the job should be diminished.
Get real.
TWO strikes and you're out is a harsher sentence than I've ever heard!
Sadly, in those 'golden days', aircraft used to crash a lot more often than they do now. Obviously the reasons for this improvement in safety are numerous, but 'modern' CRM has undoubtedly played a part.
Just because the captain's authority has been democratised a little, does not mean the professional standing of the job should be diminished.
7. Chop students who fail Flight/SIM tests at 2nd attempt regardless of their ability to pay TRTOs $$$$$
TWO strikes and you're out is a harsher sentence than I've ever heard!
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Actually the stats for western built jets show that accidents caused by pilot error are increasing - the past 20 years of technology improvement have done more than CRM to improve safety but we have almost reached the limit on how much safety can be improved by technology and now it is the automation takes you to the scene of the stall.
SOPs have become more stringent because modern pilots are not trained how to handle aircraft. Indeed open technical communication on the cockpit has been reduced by inexperienced crew's capacity limits.
If we continue to produce button pushers/screen watchers over aviators the accident rate will continue to rise.
Flight Global 01/2012:
"
At a major training conference at the UK Royal Aeronautical Society in August, it was acknowledged that this is a multifaceted problem, requiring changes in regulation as well as investment in training resources within airlines. Robert Scott, of Scott Consulting, described one facet of this modern problem. The system, he said, is increasingly producing pilots incapable of dealing with the unexpected.
"The intellectual and physical skills once *required of the pilot have largely been replaced by an emphasis on 'soft skills' and *automation management. The pilot who once cynically challenged sources of information now readily accepts information from a variety of sources, many computer-generated, without question."
One of the results of this has been the rise of loss-of-control or lack-of-control fatal accidents in the past two decades. As it happened, LOC was not a big cause of 2011 accidents, but in many respects it was not a typical year, and 12 months is a very short time in aviation safety statistics."
SOPs have become more stringent because modern pilots are not trained how to handle aircraft. Indeed open technical communication on the cockpit has been reduced by inexperienced crew's capacity limits.
If we continue to produce button pushers/screen watchers over aviators the accident rate will continue to rise.
Flight Global 01/2012:
"
At a major training conference at the UK Royal Aeronautical Society in August, it was acknowledged that this is a multifaceted problem, requiring changes in regulation as well as investment in training resources within airlines. Robert Scott, of Scott Consulting, described one facet of this modern problem. The system, he said, is increasingly producing pilots incapable of dealing with the unexpected.
"The intellectual and physical skills once *required of the pilot have largely been replaced by an emphasis on 'soft skills' and *automation management. The pilot who once cynically challenged sources of information now readily accepts information from a variety of sources, many computer-generated, without question."
One of the results of this has been the rise of loss-of-control or lack-of-control fatal accidents in the past two decades. As it happened, LOC was not a big cause of 2011 accidents, but in many respects it was not a typical year, and 12 months is a very short time in aviation safety statistics."
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The answer to the question in the thread is, we can't do anything. All the relevant forces are against us now. It really is too late.
Personal view;
I have now left the profession half way through a full career because I couldn't stand it any longer. I am just getting by on my savings, but what a relief. I now have a slight appreciation of what Nelson Mandela felt like as the prison doors opened before him.
There are a minority of pilots who can't live without flying about all day and they will do the job for any terms and conditions. I would love to see an MRI scan of their brain, I'm sure it would look nothing like anything I have seen outside of a sci-fi movie, and definitely not the same as mine. I'm not knocking these guys, if they enjoy it, well good for them. How their grey matters works will always be a complete mystery to me.
There are probably a large number of us who feel entering this ' profession' was a big mistake. Terms and conditions will go in one direction because of supply and demand, the anti-union mindset of many new pilots and the much freer flow of the pilot workforce worldwide (further stripping power from still old fashioned regional unions).
As for flying skills, regulator activity responds only to levels of body bags and nothing else. Just look at the way the UK CAA and Government have happily agreed with the airlines that the EASA FTL proposals are fine despite scientific evidence to the contrary.
Aviation. A Mugs game.
Personal view;
I have now left the profession half way through a full career because I couldn't stand it any longer. I am just getting by on my savings, but what a relief. I now have a slight appreciation of what Nelson Mandela felt like as the prison doors opened before him.
There are a minority of pilots who can't live without flying about all day and they will do the job for any terms and conditions. I would love to see an MRI scan of their brain, I'm sure it would look nothing like anything I have seen outside of a sci-fi movie, and definitely not the same as mine. I'm not knocking these guys, if they enjoy it, well good for them. How their grey matters works will always be a complete mystery to me.
There are probably a large number of us who feel entering this ' profession' was a big mistake. Terms and conditions will go in one direction because of supply and demand, the anti-union mindset of many new pilots and the much freer flow of the pilot workforce worldwide (further stripping power from still old fashioned regional unions).
As for flying skills, regulator activity responds only to levels of body bags and nothing else. Just look at the way the UK CAA and Government have happily agreed with the airlines that the EASA FTL proposals are fine despite scientific evidence to the contrary.
Aviation. A Mugs game.
Last edited by Cruise Zombie; 4th Apr 2012 at 09:20.
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Yes we can change. NO FEAR
Yes we can unite and only through intelligence.
Most pilots do have an above average intelligence when they do not act as sheep.
" There is intelligence only when there is no fear, when you are willing to rebel, to go against the whole social structure ... "
Does not intelligence arise with great revolt and a great collective effort ?
Dont be satisfied with explanations, inquire,
How did unions get started ? Of course it was not easy.
It is up to you, me and all of us is it not ?
Let say, no we do not accept this situation. NO FEAR !
The only thing you have to fear is fear itself.
Hint dont let them know you love to fly, you are a professional, it is a craft that takes a lot of work and focused attention.
Is it acceptable that many of our fellow pilots go into debt while the big executives like MOL laugh in our faces ?
Being complacent and content as the big executives, and big bankers and the Very wealthy get a bigger piece of the pie, only encourages them to take more.
Lets wake up to what is going on, no ?
Look at the middle east, who would have predicted Egypt,?
A new movment is possible but we must be proactive in our unions and tell them
Hang in there and do not accept the job with worse conditions, try to think that we are responsable for the situation.
They take advantage of our selfishness. ?
Most pilots do have an above average intelligence when they do not act as sheep.
" There is intelligence only when there is no fear, when you are willing to rebel, to go against the whole social structure ... "
Does not intelligence arise with great revolt and a great collective effort ?
Dont be satisfied with explanations, inquire,
How did unions get started ? Of course it was not easy.
It is up to you, me and all of us is it not ?
Let say, no we do not accept this situation. NO FEAR !
The only thing you have to fear is fear itself.
Hint dont let them know you love to fly, you are a professional, it is a craft that takes a lot of work and focused attention.
Is it acceptable that many of our fellow pilots go into debt while the big executives like MOL laugh in our faces ?
Being complacent and content as the big executives, and big bankers and the Very wealthy get a bigger piece of the pie, only encourages them to take more.
Lets wake up to what is going on, no ?
Look at the middle east, who would have predicted Egypt,?
A new movment is possible but we must be proactive in our unions and tell them
Hang in there and do not accept the job with worse conditions, try to think that we are responsable for the situation.
They take advantage of our selfishness. ?
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@ ricfly
Permission to speak freely sir?
Respect is something you earn, not something that comes automatically with the uniform.
I don't want a fixed seat in the crewbus, and I sure would like my colleague in the cockpit to speak up even - and this may come as a shock to you - when he is not spoken to! Or would you like him sitting next to you, silently waiting for things to get out of hand, when you make a mistake? Or wait, maybe you never make mistakes?
Get real, CRM did not get us in this situation. Poor managment combined with the low cost philosophy did.
Respect is something you earn, not something that comes automatically with the uniform.
I don't want a fixed seat in the crewbus, and I sure would like my colleague in the cockpit to speak up even - and this may come as a shock to you - when he is not spoken to! Or would you like him sitting next to you, silently waiting for things to get out of hand, when you make a mistake? Or wait, maybe you never make mistakes?
Get real, CRM did not get us in this situation. Poor managment combined with the low cost philosophy did.
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Bob; have you been on the pop?
No one is going to pay for you, (or me), to strut around like 'foghorn leghorn' in gold bars.
Easy credit and the growth in FTO has fueled a never ending supply of little kids armed with their parents wallets. Salary is very much a secondary objective to pose.
The accountants know this; they already despise the little show offs anyway; imagine how they love eroding the already dreadful T's and C's. In truth, the salary level can drop an aweful lot lower yet! Do you believe that the grinning little 'Milky Bar Kids' in their CTC 2 Stripes and Orange Lanyards will stop begging for the chance to work? Not on your life!
Come they will, on mass, and the terms can be reviewed down at the industries pleasure.
Joe Public gets heavily subsidized airfares and Tarquin gets his moment in the terminal. This thread is utterly pointless.
No one is going to pay for you, (or me), to strut around like 'foghorn leghorn' in gold bars.
Easy credit and the growth in FTO has fueled a never ending supply of little kids armed with their parents wallets. Salary is very much a secondary objective to pose.
The accountants know this; they already despise the little show offs anyway; imagine how they love eroding the already dreadful T's and C's. In truth, the salary level can drop an aweful lot lower yet! Do you believe that the grinning little 'Milky Bar Kids' in their CTC 2 Stripes and Orange Lanyards will stop begging for the chance to work? Not on your life!
Come they will, on mass, and the terms can be reviewed down at the industries pleasure.
Joe Public gets heavily subsidized airfares and Tarquin gets his moment in the terminal. This thread is utterly pointless.
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Is it acceptable that many of our fellow pilots go into debt while the big executives like MOL laugh in our faces ?
Perhaps there is a proportion of blame that should be shouldered by pilots of 15 years ago, or thereabouts, who didn't really kick up a fuss when Ryanair and Easy Jet started this 'self-sponsored' precedent, and particularly didn't put pressure on the unions of the time to stop this thing before it really took hold.
Sadly I fear that genie is so far out of the bottle now.
Pilots have a great history of talking a good fight in the crewroom or on bulletin boards like this, but can be woefully inactive beyond that.
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'Reaching the position of Captain should, YES, be enough to earn respect from all.'
Are you serious? So all captains deserve the same respect, just because they are captain?
Tell that to the family of those killed by cpt. Van Zanten, he was described as being really 'old school' by his colleagues.
Tell that to the family of those killed by cpt. Schettino (Costa Concordia)...
I would rather state that people in general deserve respect based on their behaviour and not just because they have reached a certain rank.
'Anyone with a normal IQ can be an engineer, doctor, lawyer. Very few can be pilots, fewer can be Captains, just some get to be a WB Captain'
Please get off your high horse and smell the menure...
So now we as captains are the next best thing to god, maybe on the same level as an astronaut on a good day? It is exactly this attitude that undermines true airmanship. A good captain keeps an open mind at all times, sees the bigger picture in tough situations. That is kind of hard to do with your head in the clouds. Or up your 
Respectfully yours...
Are you serious? So all captains deserve the same respect, just because they are captain?
Tell that to the family of those killed by cpt. Van Zanten, he was described as being really 'old school' by his colleagues.
Tell that to the family of those killed by cpt. Schettino (Costa Concordia)...
I would rather state that people in general deserve respect based on their behaviour and not just because they have reached a certain rank.
'Anyone with a normal IQ can be an engineer, doctor, lawyer. Very few can be pilots, fewer can be Captains, just some get to be a WB Captain'
Please get off your high horse and smell the menure...
So now we as captains are the next best thing to god, maybe on the same level as an astronaut on a good day? It is exactly this attitude that undermines true airmanship. A good captain keeps an open mind at all times, sees the bigger picture in tough situations. That is kind of hard to do with your head in the clouds. Or up your Respectfully yours...
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@ ricfly
Couldn't agree with you more on that! I'm often shocked by the lack of genuine respect in day to day human interaction. But that is something that affects us all, not only those that fly for a living.
I was under the impression that you thought some of us deserve that respect more than others, hence the 'reward' of sitting in the front seat in the crew bus. And that a WB captain deserves more respect than a guy driving a regional jet in Timboektoe. I would buy them both a drink and listen to their stories, any day....
Maybe I misread your posts - I doubt it - but if I did, my sincere apologies.
All the best
I was under the impression that you thought some of us deserve that respect more than others, hence the 'reward' of sitting in the front seat in the crew bus. And that a WB captain deserves more respect than a guy driving a regional jet in Timboektoe. I would buy them both a drink and listen to their stories, any day....
Maybe I misread your posts - I doubt it - but if I did, my sincere apologies.
All the best
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Its about respect all right.
Society is made up of us, it is up to us to change it and each one of us can. Dont believe the hype. Society seems to respect the billionaires and those with status. It is time for pilots to work on regaining that lost status.
Why is there less respect for professionals now ?
Can we create our own destiny and momentum ?
It seems they have forgotten about Sully and landing in the Hudson river.
We must all work so that the respect comes back just like it did after the hudson river. No ?
By being patient and holding on and not taking the poor job,with nasty conditions, does not your action make a difference ? What if we all did ?
All over the world the respect returned as it will again after the Hudson river flight.
Sully united us all dont let them forget it.
Society is made up of us, it is up to us to change it and each one of us can. Dont believe the hype. Society seems to respect the billionaires and those with status. It is time for pilots to work on regaining that lost status.
Why is there less respect for professionals now ?
Can we create our own destiny and momentum ?
It seems they have forgotten about Sully and landing in the Hudson river.
We must all work so that the respect comes back just like it did after the hudson river. No ?
By being patient and holding on and not taking the poor job,with nasty conditions, does not your action make a difference ? What if we all did ?
All over the world the respect returned as it will again after the Hudson river flight.
Sully united us all dont let them forget it.
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As has been mentioned before it is a case of Supply and Demand.
Oversupply causes companies to reduce conditions and not give a toss.
Pilots will not unite to a large enough critical mass to have an effect of one voice. Reading the mixture of replies here is enough to demonstrate that.
As an individual there is something you can do, and if enough like minded people do it there will be change:
Simply get out there and make it known how terrible this industry now is.
Put people off from even considering taking up the profession to start with.
Supply reduces.
-Be critical of newspaper reports of pilot pay and shortages, you call that newspaper reporter up, or post a comment on the website story up and set the record straight and try to back it up as best as you can with facts. They then think twice about ever running a story again with lame facts. I noticed it seemed to have an affect in my home country when I went on the rampage!
The worst stories are those where the CEOs claim top pilots earn more than them, but they quote the pay on a per hour rate based on flying hours not the total hours of duty for example. - Such as what Joyce has been doing about Qantas.
-Post website links, such as this site The Truth About the Profession - Home into discussion forums on the net.
-Write letters to the Editor of your local paper to get them published.
Oversupply causes companies to reduce conditions and not give a toss.
Pilots will not unite to a large enough critical mass to have an effect of one voice. Reading the mixture of replies here is enough to demonstrate that.
As an individual there is something you can do, and if enough like minded people do it there will be change:
Simply get out there and make it known how terrible this industry now is.
Put people off from even considering taking up the profession to start with.
Supply reduces.
-Be critical of newspaper reports of pilot pay and shortages, you call that newspaper reporter up, or post a comment on the website story up and set the record straight and try to back it up as best as you can with facts. They then think twice about ever running a story again with lame facts. I noticed it seemed to have an affect in my home country when I went on the rampage!
The worst stories are those where the CEOs claim top pilots earn more than them, but they quote the pay on a per hour rate based on flying hours not the total hours of duty for example. - Such as what Joyce has been doing about Qantas.
-Post website links, such as this site The Truth About the Profession - Home into discussion forums on the net.
-Write letters to the Editor of your local paper to get them published.
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DELTA
I agree with your reasoning, you have good ideas.
However, something more effective could be done in order to stop our T&Cs going further through the drain.
Let's think about it.
However, something more effective could be done in order to stop our T&Cs going further through the drain.
Let's think about it.
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Support the ECA
Delta T,
I agree with your post and excellent ideas which we should implement into action, Except, dont agree with the statement.
¨Pilots will not unite to a large enough critical mass to have an effect of one voice¨
We can start by being united on one issue at a time, fatigue ( then others )
One voice is what the ECA is working towards the new flight time changes at the european level.
Let tell our member associations, ECA,ALPA and IFALPA what we want as they are they and the delegates we send there from different associations work for us. They need to be reminded of this by our participation, not our passivity.
IFALPA is only as strong as the support we and our delegates, give it. Let our delegates know what the issues are ? so that they pass it on to IFALPA, no ?
Call me idealistic, but with blood, sweat and tears it is possible, easy no.
( Right about reducing demand, lets not condone guys who work practically for free and paying to get a first job.)
In fact there is a campaign underway right not by the ECA, which deserves our support. Sign up and register, arent there proposed FAA changes in the U.S. as well
Lets all register. No ?
Fatigue rule changes coming
Home | Dead Tired
I agree with your post and excellent ideas which we should implement into action, Except, dont agree with the statement.
¨Pilots will not unite to a large enough critical mass to have an effect of one voice¨
We can start by being united on one issue at a time, fatigue ( then others )
One voice is what the ECA is working towards the new flight time changes at the european level.
Let tell our member associations, ECA,ALPA and IFALPA what we want as they are they and the delegates we send there from different associations work for us. They need to be reminded of this by our participation, not our passivity.
IFALPA is only as strong as the support we and our delegates, give it. Let our delegates know what the issues are ? so that they pass it on to IFALPA, no ?
Call me idealistic, but with blood, sweat and tears it is possible, easy no.
( Right about reducing demand, lets not condone guys who work practically for free and paying to get a first job.)
In fact there is a campaign underway right not by the ECA, which deserves our support. Sign up and register, arent there proposed FAA changes in the U.S. as well
Lets all register. No ?
Fatigue rule changes coming
Home | Dead Tired
