BA Pilots Ponder BMI Proposal
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Suggestions that saying NO to BA's shopping list of demands by the cabin crew union, would preclude the establishment of the Mixed Fleet is pure fantasy. Project Columbus had been floated for at least 18 months before the cabin crew dispute and the blueprint, like what is happening to Flight Crew now, is at QANTAS.
There is no way BA were going to be blown off course from their main objective to establish a new cabin crew fleet. And this is the point all of the posters here have missed, the cabin crew dispute was union busting pure and simple, hidden behind a facade that a negotiated settlement was possible.
Also it is naivety in the extreme to suggest that it was possible to reason with the current management regime. BA will not integrate Mixed Fleet even though it has proved to be a disastrous decision, and the fleet has had to be removed from AMS and ATL for reasons of customer service.
If BA want to start BA Express and that is their ultimate objective, feeding the crocodile by accepting the current deal will only ensure a more aggressive attack later by Walsh, as the will to fight is diluted by the assimilation of BMI flight crew.
There is no way BA were going to be blown off course from their main objective to establish a new cabin crew fleet. And this is the point all of the posters here have missed, the cabin crew dispute was union busting pure and simple, hidden behind a facade that a negotiated settlement was possible.
Also it is naivety in the extreme to suggest that it was possible to reason with the current management regime. BA will not integrate Mixed Fleet even though it has proved to be a disastrous decision, and the fleet has had to be removed from AMS and ATL for reasons of customer service.
If BA want to start BA Express and that is their ultimate objective, feeding the crocodile by accepting the current deal will only ensure a more aggressive attack later by Walsh, as the will to fight is diluted by the assimilation of BMI flight crew.
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Count, you have that the wrong way round.
Just saying no DIRECTLY led to the establishment of Mixed fleet, it didn't preclude it.
I also don't understand why you think the assimilation of BMI would reduce our will to fight? As it stands, if BMI don't get integrated their future is extremely uncertain in terms of the T&C's they would be on in the standalone company under IAG. They would have no protections and BA flight crew would legally be unable to support them if they decided to challenge the company on their new terms.
As it stands we will be one workforce. At the end of the day I am taking a pay cut and a drop in my terms and conditions so the BMI pilots can come into BA and maintain theirs.
Just saying no DIRECTLY led to the establishment of Mixed fleet, it didn't preclude it.
I also don't understand why you think the assimilation of BMI would reduce our will to fight? As it stands, if BMI don't get integrated their future is extremely uncertain in terms of the T&C's they would be on in the standalone company under IAG. They would have no protections and BA flight crew would legally be unable to support them if they decided to challenge the company on their new terms.
As it stands we will be one workforce. At the end of the day I am taking a pay cut and a drop in my terms and conditions so the BMI pilots can come into BA and maintain theirs.
Whether the proposals are accepted or rejected will have no real long term effect on whatever plans WW has for BA /bmi, the end result will still be the same, he will get his low cost operation for short haul, it may take a bit longer to happen if there is a no vote, but happen it will !. All this current "offer" is meant to do is to keep the troops quiet whist bmi is swallowed up, and when that is all done and dusted the low cost issue will reappear.
Make no mistake, this is a smokescreen designed to hide the ambush hiding down the road, it may well be better to put up a fight now than try and defend your position later when you will be holding a much weaker hand to play.
Make no mistake, this is a smokescreen designed to hide the ambush hiding down the road, it may well be better to put up a fight now than try and defend your position later when you will be holding a much weaker hand to play.
Lo-Cost from LHR? What is everyone smoking?
Ok, at a significantly lower cost base than the current operation, you work out where the cost savings will be made, I know what my money is on.
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I am an easyJet pilot, but have watched this debate with some interest. Can someone in-the-know please tell me why any BA pilot would want a BMI pilot to be given full seniority when they join BA? It is inconceivable to me that the BA pilots would agree to anything that damages their members' interests - and who could blame them?
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please tell me why any BA pilot would want a BMI pilot to be given full seniority when they join BA?
Seniority cannot be discussed by law (TUPE) until a ballot rules in favour of integration.
''VIRGIN seems to survive without a shorthaul network to feed its routes''.
Having once worked for them, I would say that Virgin has survived despite the lack of a shorthaul network. They have always commented that their business model is different and that they don't need one, but they are limiting themselves to a restricted market - and I'm convinced it has hurt them in the past. What they should have done may years ago is tied up with BMI to create a more flexible network - then they would have created a more credible threat to BA's market share. But the antipathy betwwen Branson and Bishop made that scenario an impossibility.
I now work for a regional airline in Asia which was bought five years ago by it's larger longhaul neighbour. What the longhaul operator got was a network of feeder route in a very lucrative market for it and it's One World partners, including BA. Recently, I flew the CEO of the group on the jumpseat. I asked him if they knew how much value the aquisition of our airline had added to the bottom line. He mentioned that due to the ticket structuring, the actual increase in revenue was nealry impossible to calculate accurately, but there was no doubt that the aquisition was very important, which is why they paid twice the market value for us. A company ignores feeding it's long haul routes at their peril.
Sorry for the thread drift. Good luck guys and gals.
Having once worked for them, I would say that Virgin has survived despite the lack of a shorthaul network. They have always commented that their business model is different and that they don't need one, but they are limiting themselves to a restricted market - and I'm convinced it has hurt them in the past. What they should have done may years ago is tied up with BMI to create a more flexible network - then they would have created a more credible threat to BA's market share. But the antipathy betwwen Branson and Bishop made that scenario an impossibility.
I now work for a regional airline in Asia which was bought five years ago by it's larger longhaul neighbour. What the longhaul operator got was a network of feeder route in a very lucrative market for it and it's One World partners, including BA. Recently, I flew the CEO of the group on the jumpseat. I asked him if they knew how much value the aquisition of our airline had added to the bottom line. He mentioned that due to the ticket structuring, the actual increase in revenue was nealry impossible to calculate accurately, but there was no doubt that the aquisition was very important, which is why they paid twice the market value for us. A company ignores feeding it's long haul routes at their peril.
Sorry for the thread drift. Good luck guys and gals.
it is not being merged, so no-one is changing their T&C's.
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Lo-Cost from LHR? What is everyone smoking?
EZY has bases in CDG, ORY, FCO, MXP, MAD and SXF (soon to be THE Berlin airport); it will soon have one in LIS and it is always talking to CPH, ARN and AMS (where it already has a massive number of daily flights in and out). It should have one in BRU but the authorities there stubbornly insist on their high charges. Keep your eyes on MUC.
RYR mostly avoids major airports - for the moment.
Yes, it's only a matter of time.
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BA's flight crew should be careful that once again, after their dreadful conduct during the cabin crew dispute, that they do not behave like a spooked herd.
It is deja-vu all over again as figures are pulled out of hats to prove a particular point, that suits someone's agenda to push through a YES vote. Like the concession BALPA made over the A380 and Airbus type ratings, accepting this deal is the thin end of the wedge.
What I am most surprised about is that the BA pilots did not see this coming. They thought after the assistance they gave to Walsh serving drinks in the cabins, that they were the special ones. Even BA's fraud policy on upgrading was re-written to accomodate them moving mates of mates via Fleetlist. No amount of intellectual and eloquent negotiations is going to get them out of this one. They may need to push the button.
What BA's flight crew should understand is that BA Express is not just about LHR. It will grow and there will be bases around Europe, possibly harmonising operations with its Spanish counterpart. It is the only way to fight Easy and RyanAir long term. Walsh is going to place his tanks on their front lawn.
If this gets through, then BA pilots may as well give up on BALPA and join the Air Transport section of UNITE, just for the legal cover.
It is deja-vu all over again as figures are pulled out of hats to prove a particular point, that suits someone's agenda to push through a YES vote. Like the concession BALPA made over the A380 and Airbus type ratings, accepting this deal is the thin end of the wedge.
What I am most surprised about is that the BA pilots did not see this coming. They thought after the assistance they gave to Walsh serving drinks in the cabins, that they were the special ones. Even BA's fraud policy on upgrading was re-written to accomodate them moving mates of mates via Fleetlist. No amount of intellectual and eloquent negotiations is going to get them out of this one. They may need to push the button.
What BA's flight crew should understand is that BA Express is not just about LHR. It will grow and there will be bases around Europe, possibly harmonising operations with its Spanish counterpart. It is the only way to fight Easy and RyanAir long term. Walsh is going to place his tanks on their front lawn.
If this gets through, then BA pilots may as well give up on BALPA and join the Air Transport section of UNITE, just for the legal cover.
Last edited by Count Niemantznarr; 9th Jan 2012 at 07:37.
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... it may well be better to put up a fight now than try and defend your position later when you will be holding a much weaker hand to play.
That is why BA pilots want BMI pilots on the mainline seniority list.
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Hi Blu,
I don't think you need to worry about advising people to ignore the "Count".
Max Angle, you asked that this proposal be voted against. Aside from some friction from the Cabin Crew, most of whom I have to say are lovely people, I would have thought that this would be a very good thing to happen to the chaps from BMI. I would be interested to know the reasoning behind your request.
One of the biggest assets BA has in my opinion, is the diverse backgrounds from which we have obtained our flight crew and I for one would look forward to working with any BMI people if that should be the way that this pans out. I have been on the receiving end of their hospitality on board on more than one occasion and was always grateful.
Whatever happens, I think most BA flight crew wish you all the best no matter what, and despite suggestions from other quarters, we realise that using you as leverage is not something that individual pilots should be held accountable for.
I don't think you need to worry about advising people to ignore the "Count".
Max Angle, you asked that this proposal be voted against. Aside from some friction from the Cabin Crew, most of whom I have to say are lovely people, I would have thought that this would be a very good thing to happen to the chaps from BMI. I would be interested to know the reasoning behind your request.
One of the biggest assets BA has in my opinion, is the diverse backgrounds from which we have obtained our flight crew and I for one would look forward to working with any BMI people if that should be the way that this pans out. I have been on the receiving end of their hospitality on board on more than one occasion and was always grateful.
Whatever happens, I think most BA flight crew wish you all the best no matter what, and despite suggestions from other quarters, we realise that using you as leverage is not something that individual pilots should be held accountable for.
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My personal view is that short haul will inevitably become lower cost over the coming years. Sure, you canīt do anything about the fees and costs of operating from Heathrow itself, but if easyJet can turn around a 320 in 40 minutes by removing the cleaners from the operation then why canīt anyone else? They are even about to trial allocated seating.
Its obvious where the savings will come from. Mixed fleet (already done), cleaners, turnaround times, one class of travel (aka more seats on board)..catering on the shorter sectors... the list goes on.
This is just the natural evolution of the aviation sector.
Its obvious where the savings will come from. Mixed fleet (already done), cleaners, turnaround times, one class of travel (aka more seats on board)..catering on the shorter sectors... the list goes on.
This is just the natural evolution of the aviation sector.