Seniority: Good or Bad?
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Seniority: Good or Bad?
The majority of airlines use a seniority system to determine everything from promotion to work rosters, but others (Easyjet, Ryanair), don't use seniority at all. What are people's views on this?
Personally I'm against promotion based on seniority. I don't know of any jobs where people are promoted on that basis and why should aviation be different? The best candidates for command aren't necessarily the ones that have been with the company for the most years. What about hours logged with other airlines which could have given someone lots of valuable experience? Obviously some means of differentiation between the 100s or even 1000s of FO's that would apply for command, but setting a minimum number of total hours would reduce the volume of applications substantially. Everyone that is eligible could apply like you would for any other job, and recruitment team could make judgements based on any exams they chose to set, reports from current captains etc. Out of interest, how are command decisions taken by Easyjet and Ryanair?
Then there's the question of bid-lines. I don't think it's morally fair for a few long-serving captains to work practically when they want while newbies have to work ALL the bad shifts for their first few years. However, the ability to bid for work and have input into your own roster is surely a good thing. My ideal system would be one where promotion is taken out of the seniority system and the bid system is reformed slightly. I'd keep the system of bidding and lines being made on the basis of seniority, but I'd put in more rules whereby every roster has to include say 1 weekends work per month and 1 Christmas/New Year in 3 where appropriate. This would ensure the unpopular work is at least shared out a bit.
Personally I'm against promotion based on seniority. I don't know of any jobs where people are promoted on that basis and why should aviation be different? The best candidates for command aren't necessarily the ones that have been with the company for the most years. What about hours logged with other airlines which could have given someone lots of valuable experience? Obviously some means of differentiation between the 100s or even 1000s of FO's that would apply for command, but setting a minimum number of total hours would reduce the volume of applications substantially. Everyone that is eligible could apply like you would for any other job, and recruitment team could make judgements based on any exams they chose to set, reports from current captains etc. Out of interest, how are command decisions taken by Easyjet and Ryanair?
Then there's the question of bid-lines. I don't think it's morally fair for a few long-serving captains to work practically when they want while newbies have to work ALL the bad shifts for their first few years. However, the ability to bid for work and have input into your own roster is surely a good thing. My ideal system would be one where promotion is taken out of the seniority system and the bid system is reformed slightly. I'd keep the system of bidding and lines being made on the basis of seniority, but I'd put in more rules whereby every roster has to include say 1 weekends work per month and 1 Christmas/New Year in 3 where appropriate. This would ensure the unpopular work is at least shared out a bit.
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I understand the viewpoint that seniority is somehow 'unfair'.
However it is a safety valve against unscrupulous employers such as Ryanair. For example in a seniority based airline there is usually a step salary system ( increases the longer your in the company to a defined maximum after 15/20 years lets say). Thats proper order in most professional industries.
In ryanair you have 'contract' guys (not really) in the company 5 mins earning more than people who have been in Ryanair for 15 years ! Thats wrong.Another example - recently brookfield ( the 'contract provider') decided to increase the pay of captains by a token amount per hour.They stated that this increase is valid when your current contract expires! So basically you could have a new upgrade earning more than a fella here for years,because the fella here for years could have penned a contract 2 months ago for a few years.So he is frozen on lower rates compared to a new DEC or an FO who is lucky his contract is expiring around the time he upgrades !
Things like staff travel get better with experience/rank as well. In ryanair/loco = none.
Seniority works very well in tandem with a strong union - like BA,Virgin,Monarch etc. Even without a union in the company,seniority would ensure a rising defined career path getting better the more loyal you are.
For me it looks like a safety valve against pikeys like Ryanair who use the absence of a union and seniority to take the p*ss.
However it is a safety valve against unscrupulous employers such as Ryanair. For example in a seniority based airline there is usually a step salary system ( increases the longer your in the company to a defined maximum after 15/20 years lets say). Thats proper order in most professional industries.
In ryanair you have 'contract' guys (not really) in the company 5 mins earning more than people who have been in Ryanair for 15 years ! Thats wrong.Another example - recently brookfield ( the 'contract provider') decided to increase the pay of captains by a token amount per hour.They stated that this increase is valid when your current contract expires! So basically you could have a new upgrade earning more than a fella here for years,because the fella here for years could have penned a contract 2 months ago for a few years.So he is frozen on lower rates compared to a new DEC or an FO who is lucky his contract is expiring around the time he upgrades !
Things like staff travel get better with experience/rank as well. In ryanair/loco = none.
Seniority works very well in tandem with a strong union - like BA,Virgin,Monarch etc. Even without a union in the company,seniority would ensure a rising defined career path getting better the more loyal you are.
For me it looks like a safety valve against pikeys like Ryanair who use the absence of a union and seniority to take the p*ss.
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Suggest you use the 'search' function. This topic has been done to death for years and the only purpose it ever serves is to prove that if you are young/new to the industry seniority is seen as a disadvantage to your furtherance and if you are old/senior you see it as the main safety net protecting your income/job. End of...
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However it is a safety valve against unscrupulous employers such as Ryanair. For example in a seniority based airline there is usually a step salary system ( increases the longer your in the company to a defined maximum after 15/20 years lets say). Thats proper order in most professional industries.
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Getting rid of seniority would only work if all airlines at the same time would stop applying it. This would never happen for many reasons.
If it would happen in theory, it would be a good thing. Half of the guys in the LHS, the others in the RHS. Ability to move between companies purely based on merit and experience would be great. Finally we would all have common interests.. and be united.
Am I missing something here?
If it would happen in theory, it would be a good thing. Half of the guys in the LHS, the others in the RHS. Ability to move between companies purely based on merit and experience would be great. Finally we would all have common interests.. and be united.
Am I missing something here?
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Narrow Runway - this would be a potential problem but even if a few people worked their way up because they were well connected, it wouldn't be the norm and the laws regarding interview procedure are quite stringent nowadays to try and prevent this.
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Macdo:
Suggest you use the 'search' function. This topic has been done to death for years and the only purpose it ever serves is to prove that if you are young/new to the industry seniority is seen as a disadvantage to your furtherance and if you are old/senior you see it as the main safety net protecting your income/job. End of...
Suggest you use the 'search' function. This topic has been done to death for years and the only purpose it ever serves is to prove that if you are young/new to the industry seniority is seen as a disadvantage to your furtherance and if you are old/senior you see it as the main safety net protecting your income/job. End of...
Eliminate seniority? Yet another redistribution of wealth scheme...with the company ultimately (and often discriminately) controlling everyone's destiny...young or old.
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Man U 1999
WHAT THE HECK ARE YOU SMOKING?
Interview standards may be stringent in the world you occupy, however, there are MASSIVE variances around the globe.
Do BA operate the same upgrade policy as Ghana Airlines for instance? Or do China Eastern for instance follow all the same procedures as American Airlines?
I have never, never, never ever read such a fatuous reply as yours.
The mind boggles at the naivety of some people. At least mine does.
Interview standards may be stringent in the world you occupy, however, there are MASSIVE variances around the globe.
Do BA operate the same upgrade policy as Ghana Airlines for instance? Or do China Eastern for instance follow all the same procedures as American Airlines?
I have never, never, never ever read such a fatuous reply as yours.
The mind boggles at the naivety of some people. At least mine does.
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Narrow Runway - its not a case of being naive, I have already said that there are problems with a non-seniority based system - nothings perfect. Is it really better though to have a system where people are given command based on length of service as opposed to ability?
Seniority is a HR managers wet dream
There may have being good reasons for it in the legacy world of regulated airlines with limited opportunities to move but right now seniority is win win for companies.
One reason is it makes the very vexing scheduling issue easier to deal with.
The big bonus is it keep the pilots as effectively indentured servants. No other industry does this, not one. The one thing that all managers fear is employees, particularly employees with expensive training, heading for the door. Only airline pilots face starting over at the bottom as a penalty for leaving so they logically will sit there enduring death by a thousand cuts.
Spare me about the unscrupulous operators, etc. They will always be there.
Don't go on about how I did , so you can suffer through - that is the problem.
It would be simple enough to have a system thats rotates bidding rights fairly among all pilots and pays for seniority based on time in the company and not on equipment or routes. If your pay and work conditions are not going to be impacted what you fly and what you get paid why would you care where the newbie comes in at ?
Command upgrades could be an issue but that can be worked out.
If pilots were smart they would work a system where they were truly freelancers working for the highest bidder. The insurance companies will control the bottom end as they will force companies to have standards. (That is assuming there is a correlation between cockpit competence and loss rate, there is right?)
One reason is it makes the very vexing scheduling issue easier to deal with.
The big bonus is it keep the pilots as effectively indentured servants. No other industry does this, not one. The one thing that all managers fear is employees, particularly employees with expensive training, heading for the door. Only airline pilots face starting over at the bottom as a penalty for leaving so they logically will sit there enduring death by a thousand cuts.
Spare me about the unscrupulous operators, etc. They will always be there.
Don't go on about how I did , so you can suffer through - that is the problem.
It would be simple enough to have a system thats rotates bidding rights fairly among all pilots and pays for seniority based on time in the company and not on equipment or routes. If your pay and work conditions are not going to be impacted what you fly and what you get paid why would you care where the newbie comes in at ?
Command upgrades could be an issue but that can be worked out.
If pilots were smart they would work a system where they were truly freelancers working for the highest bidder. The insurance companies will control the bottom end as they will force companies to have standards. (That is assuming there is a correlation between cockpit competence and loss rate, there is right?)
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But how would you measure ability? In the majority of businesses you are paid more for finding the more creative ways you can come up with to solve problems.We are paid to follow the flows of the checklists. While experience makes a difference among pilots, you can't simply say, "He seems like a good pilot, he deserves a raise". While seniority within a company may not make sense other than to promote loyalty, a seniority based system based on TT is probably the way forward, but then the issue arises of companies not employing the more experienced pilots as they would be more expensive than 200hr types.
Just my €0.02
Just my €0.02
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As 20Driver says, airlines love seniority because it effectively removes competition from the pilot job market - and they have even managed to get pilots believing its good for them.
Ability could be measured using all sorts of things. Total flying time and experience as an initial sift, after that quality of applications, performance reports from current captains, interviews, exams - there are lots of possibilities.
Ability could be measured using all sorts of things. Total flying time and experience as an initial sift, after that quality of applications, performance reports from current captains, interviews, exams - there are lots of possibilities.
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Are you suggesting that there should be a rigorous system of assessments and checks in the simulator and on the aircraft plus a review of the individual's training and employment record before he/she is considered for promotion to captain?
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Good or bad depends on where you are on the list. If you're at the top of the list, seniority is great. If you're at the bottom, it sucks.
Seniority is not what removes competition from the job market. Pay does. I'm all for a national (heck, international) seniority list, but the pay structure would have to be modified.
Thus if a 15 year United Captain chose to go to Delta, he would be at the bottom of the seniority list, but be on 15yr pay. Thus he would be properly compensated for his experience. The current nonsense of new company = yr1 pay has to stop.
Seniority is not what removes competition from the job market. Pay does. I'm all for a national (heck, international) seniority list, but the pay structure would have to be modified.
Thus if a 15 year United Captain chose to go to Delta, he would be at the bottom of the seniority list, but be on 15yr pay. Thus he would be properly compensated for his experience. The current nonsense of new company = yr1 pay has to stop.
It's the fairest system and while seniority (or the lack of it) affects your quality of life enormously when one gains a little it does not mean your simulator / line checks / conversion courses / command / upgrade training get any easier.
I don't know how it works in the Doctor / Lawyer / Accountant world but I do know they have nothing to do with being an Airline Pilot.
No matter how senior you are, if you can't cut the mustard, at the least you will
never see the left seat and at most you may be asked to leave !
I don't know how it works in the Doctor / Lawyer / Accountant world but I do know they have nothing to do with being an Airline Pilot.
No matter how senior you are, if you can't cut the mustard, at the least you will
never see the left seat and at most you may be asked to leave !
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Spot on Stilton, a point many seem to overlook is that all pilots are expected to achieve and maintain a basic standard that is sufficient for them to command a public transport jet, if they don't then then don't gain the promotion to captain or, if already a captain, they lose that position.
If all qualified pilots** are of the required standard then promotion by seniority is the only way, if some are below standard they get passed over.
The young bloods who think they are the bees knees and promotion by meritocracy is the only way are the very ones who sometimes stumble on a command course.
qualified pilots** = Appropriate licence, sufficient experience, suitability and a required level of competence. You need a tick in every box.
If all qualified pilots** are of the required standard then promotion by seniority is the only way, if some are below standard they get passed over.
The young bloods who think they are the bees knees and promotion by meritocracy is the only way are the very ones who sometimes stumble on a command course.
qualified pilots** = Appropriate licence, sufficient experience, suitability and a required level of competence. You need a tick in every box.
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Seniority is a terrible curse for pilots, and I just cannot understand why any support it. It stifles the job market, reduces pay, and leaves pilots stuck with a particular employer. Without seniority 'strong unions' would not be required.
Proposing Ryanair and the likes as a reason to maintain it is a falsehood. They tend to get stuck at RYR because of other companies seniority systems, so are open to abuse by MOL.
Even the senior pilots who, according to some, are the beneficiaries of this nonsense don't actually benefit.
Proposing Ryanair and the likes as a reason to maintain it is a falsehood. They tend to get stuck at RYR because of other companies seniority systems, so are open to abuse by MOL.
Even the senior pilots who, according to some, are the beneficiaries of this nonsense don't actually benefit.
What's all this about promotion being based on merits?
Never really saw that it the legal profession or with friends and family in the City. Plenty of the best professionals are passed over or abused by their more unscrupulous colleagues to get to the top of the ladder.
In most industries, unless you go self-employed, your career path is determined by the whims of your superiors. If kissing bums and talking the big talk is what you regard as a meritocracy, then I'm not really interested.
In a stable airline where people's length of service with the company is broadly reflected by the number of completed pages in their logbook, is not seniority ladder sensible?
As was stated above, seniority does not ensure promotion, merely the order in which those who merit promotion actually achieve it. Ergo, you may find that there are people in the LHS at some airlines who got there through meritocracy who might not achieve the same exhalted postion in an airline that promotes on the basis of seniority...
As for rostering and holidays, I think I'm right in saying that there are mechanisms to ensure that being at the bottom of the seniority ladder does not consign you to working every Christmas etc.
That said, it ought to be possible to move between airlines and be slotted in to a suitably senior position. That certainly does happen in other professions. Reform rather than revolution?
Never really saw that it the legal profession or with friends and family in the City. Plenty of the best professionals are passed over or abused by their more unscrupulous colleagues to get to the top of the ladder.
In most industries, unless you go self-employed, your career path is determined by the whims of your superiors. If kissing bums and talking the big talk is what you regard as a meritocracy, then I'm not really interested.
In a stable airline where people's length of service with the company is broadly reflected by the number of completed pages in their logbook, is not seniority ladder sensible?
As was stated above, seniority does not ensure promotion, merely the order in which those who merit promotion actually achieve it. Ergo, you may find that there are people in the LHS at some airlines who got there through meritocracy who might not achieve the same exhalted postion in an airline that promotes on the basis of seniority...
As for rostering and holidays, I think I'm right in saying that there are mechanisms to ensure that being at the bottom of the seniority ladder does not consign you to working every Christmas etc.
That said, it ought to be possible to move between airlines and be slotted in to a suitably senior position. That certainly does happen in other professions. Reform rather than revolution?