Virgin Atlantic future recruitment
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 147
Likes: 0
From: Outside the EU
Oceanic
'I'm sure you would agree that the levels of flying 'experience' are vastly different.'
Yes, I would agree with you and as an ex crab I am fully aware of the inherent poling skills of the winged master race. However, I have flown with many, many 'civilians' whose poling ability has been equally on a par with ex mil.
I would also point out that for every civilain pilot that can log 20 hrs on a return trip to Singapore, there are half a dozen that would take a week of 4 sector days to log the same time so that 3000hrs only comes up in a short period for a minority.
And don't fall into the trap of equating experience with ability. Whilst I understand Virgin wanting crew that are already familiar with Boeing or Airbus systems, I think they are misguided in discriminating between ex mil with no commercial experience and and civil pilots with a great deal of the aforementioned.
'I'm sure you would agree that the levels of flying 'experience' are vastly different.'
Yes, I would agree with you and as an ex crab I am fully aware of the inherent poling skills of the winged master race. However, I have flown with many, many 'civilians' whose poling ability has been equally on a par with ex mil.
I would also point out that for every civilain pilot that can log 20 hrs on a return trip to Singapore, there are half a dozen that would take a week of 4 sector days to log the same time so that 3000hrs only comes up in a short period for a minority.
And don't fall into the trap of equating experience with ability. Whilst I understand Virgin wanting crew that are already familiar with Boeing or Airbus systems, I think they are misguided in discriminating between ex mil with no commercial experience and and civil pilots with a great deal of the aforementioned.
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 64
Likes: 0
From: Far out
It's simply the case that to achieve 3000 hrs of military flying would take most people at least 10 years and involve a variety of roles and specialist flying whereas 3000 hrs civil flying can be gained in 3.5 years by following the 'magenta line!' - I'm sure you would agree that the levels of flying 'experience' are vastly different.
If you arrogantly assume civil flying entails following magenta lines you are very misinformed.
What does someone flying a C-17 from the Middle east to the UK do all day? How relevant is flying a Harrier or F3 to airline ops?
Speak to most TRE's and a fair percentage will say that EX FJ drivers have problems adjusting to multi crew ops.
And 300 hours per year?! Some may argue that isn't enough to safely stay current.
I have masive respect for Mil pilots and their skill set and what they put up with lifestyle wise. But i take issue with anyone trying to justify that they are somehow better adjusted to civilian long or short haul operations. I have flown with two. One was a good guy, eager to learn and realised he had a long way to go before being considered for command.
but is merely a statement as to how the airlines view it
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 92
Likes: 0
From: uk
San Expiry - why should the fact you fly fare paying passengers on a commercial basis necessarily put you at an advantage over someone who has essentially done the same job but for the MoD with the same constraints? Same job is it not?
There are very few FJ mates who could meet these hours criteria so I wouldn't be too disheartened. These guys may not have commercial experience but have proven handling ability, learning ability and flexibility so much so that some employers recognize the value of such, notwithstanding the obvious learning curve of operating multi-crew.
I fully agree that these days mil pilots are not inherently better than any civilian counterparts. However, Oceanic 815 is broadly correct in stating that the attainment of 3000 takes a mil pilot umpteen years,even those of us on heavies. My average annual total for the past few years is around the 400hrs mark including many months in a sandpit.
I dont think any current or ex mil would advocate we are better, because it certainly isnt true. We just bring a different skill set to the party and generally we are fairly content in being flexible and handling last minute changes because I guarantee you guys in the civilian sector have not been bu**ered about as much as some of us have! I dont know what I'm doing tomorrow never mind in one/two/three weeks time!
There are very few FJ mates who could meet these hours criteria so I wouldn't be too disheartened. These guys may not have commercial experience but have proven handling ability, learning ability and flexibility so much so that some employers recognize the value of such, notwithstanding the obvious learning curve of operating multi-crew.
I fully agree that these days mil pilots are not inherently better than any civilian counterparts. However, Oceanic 815 is broadly correct in stating that the attainment of 3000 takes a mil pilot umpteen years,even those of us on heavies. My average annual total for the past few years is around the 400hrs mark including many months in a sandpit.
I dont think any current or ex mil would advocate we are better, because it certainly isnt true. We just bring a different skill set to the party and generally we are fairly content in being flexible and handling last minute changes because I guarantee you guys in the civilian sector have not been bu**ered about as much as some of us have! I dont know what I'm doing tomorrow never mind in one/two/three weeks time!
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 147
Likes: 0
From: Outside the EU
'I dont know what I'm doing tomorrow never mind in one/two/three weeks time!
Chris, perhaps to not quite the same degree as the Services expects but there are a lot of guys out here on the other side of the fence who also have to put up with life like that. We're not all on BA bid lines.
Of course it's the same job. My point is that Virgin is discriminating, as is their right, against the non Boeing/Airbus type rated 'civvy' in favour of the non Boeing/Airbus type rated mil pilot, that's all.
Chris, perhaps to not quite the same degree as the Services expects but there are a lot of guys out here on the other side of the fence who also have to put up with life like that. We're not all on BA bid lines.
Of course it's the same job. My point is that Virgin is discriminating, as is their right, against the non Boeing/Airbus type rated 'civvy' in favour of the non Boeing/Airbus type rated mil pilot, that's all.
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 955
Likes: 0
From: UK
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 955
Likes: 0
From: UK
Joined: Feb 2001
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 501
Likes: 35
From: UK
I think the requirements are driven by the desire to take candidates eligible for Zero Flight Time (ZFT) training. Similarly, I imagine pilots with B744 or Airbus ratings, especially 330/340, are ahead of the pack as the company can save money on their training.
I don't doubt the flying ability of, for example, fast jet pilots, but airlines ops are all about making money. It's that simple.
FWIW Virgin already has a good mix of ex mil and civvy trained pilots.
I don't doubt the flying ability of, for example, fast jet pilots, but airlines ops are all about making money. It's that simple.
FWIW Virgin already has a good mix of ex mil and civvy trained pilots.
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 152
Likes: 16
From: Sussex
Sadly for all you hopefuls,this is old news.The A330's are just about here and the recruiting has been done.
This is just another attempt to get the airline in the news again
A 1 to 8 office to flying staff ratio,says it all really.
This is just another attempt to get the airline in the news again
A 1 to 8 office to flying staff ratio,says it all really.
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 42
Likes: 0
From: Scotland
Hi
Could I please ask any current Virgin pilots whether commuting from the Scottish Central Belt on a Virgin roster is realistically an option, whilst also maintaining a family life? Please be as brutally honest as you like as it may well determine whether I go for the interview or not. I see a number of Cabin Crew commuting daily, but not many Flight Deck Crew, which may answer the question anyway. I've read a lot of the info that you've all kindly put on here and in other threads, so this really is my only question about it all. If anyone is wanting to know, I'm at 6000 hours, 1600 jet and 3000 turbo.
Many thanks
Could I please ask any current Virgin pilots whether commuting from the Scottish Central Belt on a Virgin roster is realistically an option, whilst also maintaining a family life? Please be as brutally honest as you like as it may well determine whether I go for the interview or not. I see a number of Cabin Crew commuting daily, but not many Flight Deck Crew, which may answer the question anyway. I've read a lot of the info that you've all kindly put on here and in other threads, so this really is my only question about it all. If anyone is wanting to know, I'm at 6000 hours, 1600 jet and 3000 turbo.
Many thanks
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 10
Likes: 0
From: Gods Country
757,
there are guys in the company that commute from all over the uk and europe.
you have 3 simple options, fly, train or drive.
Edinburgh and Glasgow are fine for flying, depends if you are looking at mainly Gatwick or Heathrow trips. Many guys commute this way from your area. Your staff travel concessions start after 6 months so there will be a few issues to start with.
Train from Glasgow is easy with virgin trains (reduced fares)
Driving will be too far. I drive from N Yorkshire occasionally which hurts after a trip.
Hope it helps
there are guys in the company that commute from all over the uk and europe.
you have 3 simple options, fly, train or drive.
Edinburgh and Glasgow are fine for flying, depends if you are looking at mainly Gatwick or Heathrow trips. Many guys commute this way from your area. Your staff travel concessions start after 6 months so there will be a few issues to start with.
Train from Glasgow is easy with virgin trains (reduced fares)
Driving will be too far. I drive from N Yorkshire occasionally which hurts after a trip.
Hope it helps